you are the rock at the back nobody left go. alone. and i'm really happy to join to meet this special want me to review to look. in a world of big. lot to dig deeper to get the stories the more than me shouting past each other it's time to fight for the middle for the troops the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. welcome to. the arab spring began with high hopes. but with

seventy years on it turned the middle east into an open war and what went so wrong and what is next for the region will i ask the former president of tunisia where the wave of revolt started mr maule said. seven years after the people of the middle east took to the streets demanding transparency democracy and inclusion the region is a wash with fanaticism on a key and launch our popular movements just doomed to fail in the arab world has the arab spring become the ultimate antidote against revolutions or will another wave of uprisings and goes to region once again. the former president of tunisia welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us now. seventy years ago they are exploring infected the middle east with hopes that popular app risings would get rid of dictators and usher in an era of prosperity we have now only one success story out of many why has to manage to make

this work so far but no one else. well first of all let me thank you for this invitation of course here in tunisia we are all extremely sorry paul what happens in countries like syria like yemen libya even in asia i think it's really a catastrophe that just because the people wanted to be free. you know what happened to the syrian people you know what happened to the libyan people etc. tunisia is concerned i can say that where we are if of course very very proud. because we have a she with a peaceful and democratic group who should but you know we are still we have a lot a problem. we are tackling a lot of problem we didn't solve all our problems so i wouldn't talk about success story i would talk about a half success story and i am very often asked why tunisia is so. is so

different. in fact if we have this small success i can say it has nothing to do with the fact that we are all smarter or we are different than syrian or libyan it has to do with the very structure of the traditional society i can say that this is lucky because. you know that we are a middle class society where you do get that society we have very strong civil society for many many many decades. also we are a small country we don't have oil we don't have you know so we don't attract the greed of superpowers of so forth. and we are also mother in the country this this has been very specific but i want to talk history you were first president after the revolution what was the biggest challenge for you is that i mean do you feel you have to steal the protesters demands and dreams one of the

main important reasons for group pollution was the high rate of wouldn't really meant. high rate of corruption. high rate employment among among graduates and i can say that. if you consider this objective we didn't we didn't achieve much we still have a corrupt society we still have a corrupt corruption is everywhere in our work in our society we still have a high rate of unemployment and we still have a lot of bitterness you know especially in the hinterland so i would say that our success story is a half success story once again because we have achieved the political game the political objective but we didn't we didn't succeed in achieving the economy goes so i heard you say that you had nightmares back then that there'll be another revolution within the revolution was it hard for you to prevent and now there were ups rising from breaking out what i hope that. the huge challenges we are

precinct currently are once again we're just facing economic problems if we can if tunisia can move forward if tunisia in one thousand the next election for instance you know. there could stay on the track with the state democratic states and improve the economic situation i think we can we can probably. improve the situation as a whole i think tunisian our people is a wise people is a moderate people and i can i can hope that we would not have to resort to a new ruble who should but to make situation would worsen again and again and again i'm afraid that people would say hey it's ok we were very impressed by the fact that we have freedom of expression freedom of association was not enough we want to want to eat and so then i would be very. probably they would be more interested in somebody to craft a. regime that could bring. social development but the problem

is that we have we have had this kind of regime. for more than two decades arkenstone what we called a strong group with the big eight zero zero zero and it's a throwback to a social and economic improvement the people have to understand the leap between democracy and social development and this link is not yet where understood like you said there's corruption tunisian unemployment rates are high finances are in disarray the tourism industry is threatened by terrorism i mean it's not that much better and under the former dictatorship right so how can you explain to young people what this was all really for if they don't see much difference. well first of all they see a difference they see a difference because for the first time tunisian leave. they did then they don't live under fear you know because under the dictatorship of the situation was a psychological situation of the people was extremely extremely bad i think

a delusion were very frayed that the secret police tunisian were pretty proud of everything and they. they use it to to to feel the shame in and of being just subject to the dictator of the dictatorship and corrupt dictatorship so i think they see the difference and they are this is why i think they they would never accept the comeback of the dictatorship even if you have this democrat this economic problem but the but it all tunisians know that in fact. if you have had this with pollution it's not because well the people didn't want nobody you know would take to the street just because he's he's angry or people have taken to the streets because they want to rush to because there is tunisia would no longer accept to live under this high. level of oppression their high level of contempt

the high level of poverty etc etc so in fact the main responsible for the revolution i would say it is the dictatorship is the same thing in syria if this is syrian people you know took to the street it could be it it was only because of the syrian regime and it was the same thing in libya in asia but you cannot you know we cannot say to the people look be very careful because if you revolt then you would have you would be punished and punished those people would not accept this kind of blackmail you know if we come back to the same regime with the same problem with the same disease the outcome would be a new revolution. one time or another it's just a matter of time. there are say rallies in tunisia and people are setting themselves on fire just like in twenty eleven but with less restrictions on the santa with republic this chorus with elections will live discontent just dissipate away or is it putting real pressure on tunisian politicians yes of course there is

usually. for the first time here in tunisia and this is because of the regime of course we have public opinion and the public opinion is now playing an important role you know to put the pressure on to a petition to improve their their way. of behaving and you know when you have. i think it's very important for folks for a compromise because that people. become really citizens because before the before the revolution they were just subject to the datasheet now currently they are citizens and they are free and they are proud of being free and they are for the first time once again we have a public opinion of the political every politician is now very aware of the fact that he is well watched by the by this public opinion by the. by social media etc etc and this is this is our i would say that this is our main game

from the from the revolution that's for the first time in this country we are free people and we are proud of being free people and so and also i think they're out of the starting place and not really do you just get it you just said it we're free people does the fact that you're free people and people are able to speak their minds freely mean that there is a less chance of a revolution because they can say whatever they want. yes but you know this pritam is made you use it to fight again the main sport the main problem that led to the repercussion which is corruption oh man problem in this country and all of the arab countries corruption is the fact that we have a corrupt elite and this corrupt it use of the use of the state for its own benefit for the first time in our history and three thousand years of history in tunisia we have the public opinion we have people watching what's happening within the state watching what was it i would of course but here is this this if you're saying it's your. opinion and people watching the politicians that means that there is less

pressure on politicians because there is no danger also revolution yeah. so you politicians can just insinuate whatever say because there is no pressure because there is no fear of a real illusion anymore. no no but we have a we're going to have elections on with every note everybody know that election no i have not nothing to do with the elections before they were lucian so this also is kind of. pressure but you know we're going to change the situation from overnight we have to be patient we have to we need we need some more time but i think as far as tunisia is now a democratic state i think we can we will stick to this new freedom and we were not give up look when the situation in. the of the in libya in syria in yemen it's what you would see that the people are still fighting for their freedom they didn't

give up even with the you know the high amount of blood and the high amount of repression of violence by the by the country would who should be parsed is still. fighting for their freedom and this is a new phenomena and this is. the no matter what the old regime would do the people would fight for their freedom and this is very new and this is very very promising . all right we're going to take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to him and says i'm absolutely the former president of tunisia discussing the legacy i'll say arab spring seven years after it broke out stay with us.

when gold make this manufacture consent to instant of public wealth. when the room in classes protect themselves. with the financial merry go round lifts only the one percent. nor middle of the room six. million real news is. across europe municipalities are taking their water supply back from private companies who feel intimidated people themselves with simple song alone even some company elsewhere they invite private companies to take over their utilities anybody tell us that opel. allowed to us you guys you got to be well on the come up

to go buy been pieces of us to quote them out. of more use than bill bill if bill brought up locals are ready to stand up for the basic human right the access to water is about water but it's also over much more than water it's about to hurt and the redistribution of all it was to us their debt down wars we want to. show seem wrong. why don't we all just don't call. me. yet to stamp out disdain comes to cancer. and engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground.

we're back with. former president talking about the trial. talking about the hours in the region as a whole. can't be traced to just barack or. they happened in so many countries at once but is it fair to bundle his results together i mean surely a different arab states had different reasons for the uprisings or did they not. i think they have to have the same problem everywhere the same problem is once again dictatorship are hard to ship with massive human rights violation all this you know almost human rights violation in fact they were hiding the the the most important

problem which is corruption the huge amount of money that has been spent by the local police everywhere and our board this was the inacceptable especially for the new generation because what the leaders in it understand that they are facing a new genre ration i call it the asian aeration this generation of young people where educated work will inform. being you know. extremely aware of the everything good happening in the world etc. being part of this social network international social network it's about this asian immigration has nothing to do with the older generation my generation for instance where you have. people who are not educated who could accept everything you know i don't like the word arab spring i always talk about the arab volcanoes of the arab earthquake what happened in two thousand and eleven was just the post out of the volcano. even

though you can big question all of that if you have a new eruption over again those everywhere if we don't if the local regime the elites the local elite don't think of this problem of corruption of social justice so the a.b.n. and syrian cases lead to all out war in talking specifically about libya now that gadhafi regime managed to uphold the tribal power balance in a country with gadhafi gone the tribes have gone to war do you think it's a responsible to start a revolt without thinking about how to keep the country together after their waltz i mean my class was you know if you were removing the dictator but losing the country in the process. yes well this is exactly what many people would say everywhere but i can i can respond to this. who is responsible of the situation on p.b.s. i think this gadhafi was head of state for more than four decades why didn't he.

do everything you know to promote education to promote social just its approach imagine that this nick paper has done this as promoted i would say the minimum of the democracy the minimum of social justice is the minimum of i think the probably leader would be one of the richest and the most stable country in the in the region but this is didn't happen so once again what's happened now in libya the outbreak of the ruble lucian and the aftermath of the bush and it's the responsibility of gaddafi exactly it's the responsibility al bashir assad in syria is the responsibility of the dictatorship in tunisia i think if they imagine that all of those dictators behaved differently imagine that in syria for instance the bush either side has accepted the minimal freedoms a minimum of social justice you wouldn't have this is the biscuit passed through

from here. ok so i was going to debate one topic right now i must confess that there have been we're talking about things that didn't happen and we can't change my question is this things standing the way they stand right now is it worth losing the country by removing a dictator. yes but the amount of the. so the us would be a look i would say to every country now living under a dictatorship look imagine what would happen if you get rid of the dictatorship so please accept the. present so please accept. corruption so please accept everything so it please accept because look it would be worst if you don't if you if you move forward if you ask if you stand for it for for your dignity or for ites you cannot talk to people like this you can you cannot. imagine now if any country . living under our dictatorship and say big careful because if you report you with

it it is your fate would be worse no we cannot and you cannot talk to the people like this you you you have to talk to the lesson would be too stupid to talk to the dictators everywhere to stare them look you have to do something for your country because if you don't you you can have the destruction of your own eat your regime but also the destruction of your people your country this is what should be said to the dictator another to the people this is should be in the lesson of the arab spring and do you think taters are listening now. no they're not listening because the you know the dictator is a dictator i think has he doesn't know about anybody he's. he's convinced that he's right all the time it's a crisis are about you know it's once again when you have the social and economic problem in the country you're going to blame the people who come you must blame the regime because the regime has the upper hand when you have the upper hand you you

are responsible you gotta ask the people you know to accept you just because it could be worse if you are removed. so the advertising that led to the russian revolution in one nine hundred seventy that started chaotically but was quickly saddled badly organized underground revolutionary parties why didn't the arab spring uprisings have an organized political force to lead them and focus them. well because you know when you live under a dictatorship dictate to do everything you know to prevent any kind of peace for organizing you know a political party and also the support to to lead the revolution of course this is what happened in the end in libya gadhafi has done everything you know to prevent any kind of organization whether it was but it because all just n.g.o.s and so when when who was overthrown there was it kind of

a vacuum and you know when you have this kind of force you can you can have everything you can have this horrible violence going on just no yes no fortunately in tunisia because we have this tradition of being strong civil society for so many the case before that even before that dependency wait we were lucky because we have had this you know this. group of people leading the people who should and this is why we didn't we didn't have this civil war and so for so the arab spring protests got a lot of people really excited and the western leaders western media lock the activists all of them were like opposite os but in the wave of excitement what happens to the voices of people who didn't want to come out to the streets for instance while people in benghazi want to see out people in tripoli were not as excited over the idea while people in homs wanted assad out people in aleppo where i'm very skeptical over the proposal is it inevitable ignoring this one side that isn't

yelling as loud as the other. yes. you know it's society. within a society you have the nose of. the society you have people who are happy with the regime because they you know that they have everything they want from this regime so it's quite normal that that in syria or even in tunisia you know people they some of the population were was not very happy with their will with the fall of the ship because a dictatorship is not just one his family did that you know that enjoying. life and having a lot of money etc you have thousands of people you know living a very well under a dictatorship so i can imagine that in in syria in arkansas so do you see the danger of painting everyone who isn't partaking in the revolutionary fever asked

the government or you say regime time i would you end up presenting them as a faceless mass of people without a voice i mean that's how civil war start there is always in a society a majority and minority and i can assure you that the big minority big minority are where extremely unhappy with their would the outcome of the arab spring but look when you when you have a crisis in the so important political crisis like we have had before the outbreak of brutal lucian what would what is the city's solution you cannot express your your your feeling your wishes as a majority because there are no election or fair election that you have to pick this week you don't have any any other solution you kind of. there look people look there are some people who were not who don't agree with you with that because they are happy with that we are with the regime and you're going to look stay quiet because you could have. the situation worse and if you're ready for it because we

are going to you know. crush you. we're going to kill all of you we were going to burn the country etc you can have this to the population the population would take to the street i would try to explain the sense because people who are no longer can no longer accept the situation who will believe and this is this is the reality you have to accept this also but. thank you very much for this interview you were talking to the last seven months or to you this former president of tunisia discussing the impact of the arab spring seventy years on in tunisia and other arab countries that's it for this edition of so if you go i will see you next . thank you.

so you will be in. the.

can you tell me can you see us from the from the sleuth. in the form of the view. almost you must pay for the favor. and theme of money also for the. i will try to get. seventy four design submissions. seventy thousand pilings. to join judges. and eight hundred sixty days of. the russian w.b. . and a russian. show you how. long the crimea bridge was built.

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breaking news this hour brags that means except for boris johnson the u.k.'s foreign secretary points to recent days and battle government he's the third minister to resign in twenty four hours over the latest plans for a soft drugs that. we say they are still unable to link the nerve agent used in the amesbury instant to the one used to poison a former russian double agent back in march but that's not stopped some politicians from blaming russia. a journalist who helped whistleblower edward snowden expose the n.s.a. secrets is branded a kremlin puppet all because he has attended a cyber security conference in russia. and as the world cup enters its last week our correspondent goes to test the ball the i.