the u.k. foreign secretary resigns me as the third minnesota quiet in twenty four hours over at the government's plan for a softer. u.k. politicians blame russia for a navi child poisoning incident in ames very even though police have made a known link to moscow. a journalist who how to whistle blower add or snowden exposed to the n.s.a.'s and secrets is branded a kremlin puppet all because he has attended a security conference and the country with. the latest on these stories had to r.t. dot com coming up the former president of tunisia as the guest.

welcome to. the arab spring began with high hopes. but with seventy years on turned the middle east into an open war and what went so wrong and what is next for the region we'll ask the former president of tunisia where the wave started mr maule said. seven years after the people of the middle east took to the streets demanding transparency democracy and inclusion the region is awash with notices and under a key and launch. a movement has failed in the arab world has the arab spring become the ultimate antidote against revolutions or will another wave of uprisings and goes to region once again. the former president of tunisia

welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us now. seventy years ago they are spring infected the middle east with hope that popular app risings would get rid of dictators and i share in an era of prosperity we have now only one success story out of many why has to manage to make this work so far but no one else well first of all let me thank you for this invitation of course here in tunisia we are all extremely story paul what happened in countries like syria like yemen libya even in a ship i think it's really a catastrophe that just because the people wanted to be free you know what happened to the syrian people you don't want to happen to the libyan people etc. tunisia is concerned i can say that where we are if of course very very proud.

because we have a she with a peaceful and democratic group who should but you know as we have stated we have brought a problem. we're tackling a lot of problem we didn't solve all our problems so i wouldn't talk about success story i would talk about success story and i am very often asked why tunisia is so . is so different. in fact if we have this small success i can say it has nothing to do with the fact that we are all smarter or we have different than syrian or libyan it has to do with the very structure of the society i can say that this is lucky because. you know that we are a middle class society where you do get that society we have very strong civil society for many many many decades. also we have a small country we don't have oil we don't have you know so we don't attract greed . superpowers also for. we are also mother and country this

this has been very specific to our. history you were first president after the revolution what was the biggest challenge for us and i mean do you feel you have to feel the protesters demands and dreams one of the main important reasons for group pollution was the higher it wouldn't really meant higher rate of corruption. improvement among among graduates and i can say that. if you consider this objective we didn't we didn't achieve much we still have a corrupt society we still have a corrupt corruption is everywhere in our work in our society we still have a high rate of unemployment and we still have a lot of bitterness you know especially in the hinterland so i would say that our success stories have success story once again because we have achieved the political game the political objective but we didn't we didn't succeed in achieving

the economy goes so i heard you say that you had nightmares back then that there'll be another revolution within the revolution was it hard for you to prevent and now there were ups rising from breaking out what i hope. the huge challenges we are precinct currently once again we are just facing economic problems if we can if tunisia can move forward if tunisia in one thousand the next election for instance you know. there could stay on the track but stay on the democratic states and improve the economic situation i think we can we can probably. improve the situation as a whole i think tunisian our people is a wise people is a moderate people and i can i can hope that we would not have to resort to a new ruble who should but if the economy situation would worsen again and again and again i'm afraid that be. i would say it's ok we were going to be really

impressed by the fact that we have freedom of expression freedom of association but stuff you know if we want to want to eat and so then i would be very. probably they would be more interested in some graphic. regime that could bring. social development but the problem is that we have we have had this kind of regime for more than two decades i think still what we call the strong with the big eight zero zero zero and it's a throwback to the brain is social and economic improvement the people have to has to understand the link between democracy and social development and this link is not yet where understood like you said there's corruption tunisian unemployment rates are high finances are in disarray the tourism industry is threatened by terrorism i mean it's not that much better and under the former dictatorship right so how can you explain to young people what this was all really for if they don't

see much difference. well first of all they see a difference they see a difference because for the first time to asian live. they did then they don't live under fear you know because under the dictatorship of the situation was a psychotic situation of the people was extremely extremely bad i think a delusion where very frayed of the secret police tunisian were pretty proud of everything and they they who the they used to to to to feel the shame in and of being just subject to the to dictate to the dictatorship and corrupt dictatorship so i think they see the difference and they are this is why i think they they would never accept the comeback of the dictatorship even if you have this democrat this economic problem but the but it all tunisians know that in fact. if you have had this rebelution it's not because well the people didn't want nobody

you know would take to the street just because he's he's angry or people have taken to the streets because they want to rush to because there is tunisia would no longer accept to live under this high. level of oppression their high level of contempt the high level of poverty etc etc so in fact the main responsible for the revolution i would say it is in the dictatorship is the same thing in syria if this is syrian people you know took to the street it could be it it was only because of the syrian regime and it was the same thing in libya in asia you cannot you know we cannot say to the people look be very careful because if you revolt then you would have you would be punished and punished the people would not accept this kind of blackmail you know if we come back to the same regime with the same problem with the same disease the outcome would be

a new revolution. one time or another it's just a matter of time. there are say rallies in tunisia and people are setting themselves on fire just like in twenty eleven but with less restrictions on the santa with republic this chorus with elections will live discontent just dissipate away or is it putting real pressure on tunisian politicians yes of course there is usually. for the first time here in tunisia and this is because of the regime of course we have public opinion and the public opinion is now playing an important role you know to put the pressure on to put it to ship to improve their their way. of behaving and you know when you have. i think it's very important for for for a compromise because that people. become really citizens because before the before the revolution they were just subject to the datasheet now currently they are citizens and they are free and they are proud of being free and they are for

the first time once again we have a public opinion on the political scene that every politician is now very aware of the fact that he's well watched by the by this public opinion by the. by social media etc etc and this is this is our i would say that this is our main game from the from the revolution that's for the first time in this country we are free people and we are proud of being free people and so and also i think they're out of this story it's also not really do you just get it you just said they were free people does the fact that you're free people and people are able to speak their minds freely mean that there is a less chance of a revolution because they can say whatever they want. yes but you know this pritam is made you use it to fight against the main sport the main problem that led to the repercussion which is corruption own main problem in this country and all of that out of the country is corruption is the fact that we have a corrupt elite and this corrupt it use of the use of the state for its own benefit

for the first time in our history in three thousand years in history in tunisia we have the public opinion we have people watching what's happening within the state watching what is that i would of course but here is this this if you're saying it's your. opinion and people watching the politicians that means that there is less pressure on politicians because there is no danger also revolution yeah. so your politicians can just insinuate whatever they want because there is no pressure because there is no fear of a relation anymore. no no but we have a we are going to have elections on with every note everybody know that election now i have nothing to do with the elections before the lucian so this is kind. of pressure but you know we're going to change the situation from overnight we have to be patient we have to we need we need some more time but i think as far as

tunisia is now a democratic state i think we can we will stick to this new freedom and who will not give up look when the situation in. the other in libya in syria in yemen it's what you would see that the people are still fighting for their freedom they didn't give up even with the you know the high amount of blood and the high amount of repression of violence by the by the country will who should be parsed is still. fighting for their freedom and this is a new phenomena this is worth the no matter what the old regime would do the people would fight for their freedom and this is very new and this is very very promising all right we're going to take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to him and says i'm absolutely the former president of tunisia discussing the legacy i'll say arab spring seven years after a broke out stay with us. and

we're back with the the former president of tunisia talking about the trial disasters of the arab spring revolutions so talking about the our strength in the region as a whole the app rising can be traced to just mubarak or qaddafi or. they happened in so many countries at once but is it fair to bundle all is revolves together i mean surely a different arab states had different reasons for the uprisings or did they not. i think they have to have the same problem everywhere the same problem is once again the datasheet the heart dictatorship with massive human rights violation all this

you know all those human rights violation in fact they were hiding the the the most important problem which is corruption the huge amount of money that have been spent by the local police everywhere and our board this was the inacceptable especially for the new generation because what the leaders in that understand that they are facing a new genre ration i call it the asian aeration this generation of young people where educated work will inform. being you know. extremely aware of the everything good happening in the world etc. being part of this social network international social network it's about this asian immigration has nothing to do with the older generation my generation for instance where you have. people who are not educated who could accept everything you know i don't like the word arab spring i always talk about the arab ok it was all the arab earthquake what

happened in two thousand and eleven was just the first outburst of the both cases even though you can be quite sure that if you have a new eruption over again those everywhere if we don't if the local regime the elites the roekel elite don't think of this problem of corruption of social justice so the libyan and syrian cases lead to all out war in talking specifically about libya now the gadhafi regime managed to uphold the tribal power balance in a country with qaddafi gone the tribes have gone to war do you think it's a responsible to start a revolt without thinking about how to keep the country together after their waltz i mean my class was you know the worst removing the dictator but losing the country in the process. yes well this is exactly what many people would say everywhere but i can i can respond to this. who is responsible of the situation on p.b.s.

i think this kadafi was head of state for more than four decades why didn't he. do everything you know to promote education to promote social justice etc imagine that this nick paper has done this as promoted i would see the minimum of the democracy the minimum of social justice is the minimum of i think the probably leader would be the one of the richest the most stable country in the in the region but this is didn't happen so once again what's happened now in libya the outbreak of brutal lucian and the aftermath of the bush and it's the responsibility of gaddafi exactly it's the responsibility al bashir assad in syria is the responsibility of the dictatorship in tunisia i think it is imagine that all of those dictators behaved differently imagine that in syria for instance the bush era

has had has accepted minimal freedoms a minimum of social justice you wouldn't have this the biscuit passed through feel . ok if i was going to be a way to public right now i'm not going to that they have been we're talking about things that didn't happen and we can't change my question is this things step standing the way they stand right now is it worth losing the country by removing a dictator. yes but. so the us would be look i would say to every country now living under a dictatorship look emersion what would happen if you get rid of the dictatorship so please accept the. present so please accept. corruption so please accept everything so it please accept because look it would be worst if you don't if you if you move forward if you ask if you stand for four for your dignity or for arts you cannot talk to people like this you can you can have. a measure now if any

country. living under our dictatorship and say big careful because if you do with it it is your fate would be worse no we cannot and you cannot talk to the people like this you you have to talk to the lesson would be too stupid to talk to the dictators everywhere was there the look you have to do something for your country because if you don't you you can have the destruction of your e.u. or regime but also the destruction of your people your country this is what should be said to the dictator or another to the people this is should be a big lesson of the arab spring and do you think the taters are listening now no they are not listening because the you know the dictator is a dictator i think has he innocent don't know about the anybody here is. he's convinced that he's right all the time it's a price of power but you know it's once again when you have the social and economic

problem in the country you cannot blame the people who come you must blame the regime because the regime has the upper hand when you have the upper hand you you are responsible you can ask the people you know to accept you just because it could be worse if you are removed. so the advertising that led to the russian revolution in one nine hundred seventeen and started chaotically but was quickly saddled badly organized underground revolutionary parties why didn't the arab spring uprisings have an organized political force to lead them and focus. well because you know when you live under a dictatorship the dictator would do everything you know to prevent any kind of peace for organizing you know political party or sole support to try to lead the revolution of course this is what happened in the end in libya gadhafi has done everything you know to prevent any kind of organization whether it was but it because all just n.g.o.s and so when one who as i were thrown

there was it kind of a vacuum and you know when you have this kind of back and of course you can you can have everything you can have this horrible violence going on just no yes no fortunately in tunisia because we have this tradition of being strong civil society for so many the case before that even before that the best way we were lucky because we have had this you know this. group of people leading the people who should and this is why we didn't we didn't have this civil war and so for so the arab spring protests got a lot of people really excited and the western leaders western media law school activists all of them were like opposite os but in the wave of excitement what happens to the voices of people who didn't want to come out to the streets for instance while people in benghazi want to see out people in tripoli were not as

excited over the idea while people in homs wanted assad out people in aleppo where i'm very skeptical over the proposal is it inevitable ignoring this one side that isn't yelling as loud as the other. yes. you know a society. within a society you have the. winner the society you have people who are happy with the regime because they you know that they have everything they want from this regime so it's quite normal that that in syria or even in tunisia you know people that is some of the population were was not very happy with their will with the fall of the ship because a dictatorship is not just one his family did that you know that enjoying. life and having to go out of money etc you have thousands of people you know living a very well under a dictatorship so i can imagine that in in syria in arkansas so do you see the

danger of painting everyone who isn't partaking in the revolutionary fever asked the government or you say regime time i would you end up presenting them as a faceless mass of people without a voice i mean that's how civil war start there is always in the society a majority and minority and i can assure you that the big minority big minority are where extremely unhappy with their would the outcome of the arab spring but look when you when you have a crisis in the so important political crisis like we have had before the outbreak of brutal lucian what would what is the city's solution you cannot express your your your feeling your wishes as a majority because there are no election or fair election then you have to think this week you don't have any any other solution you kind of. there look people look there are some people who are not who don't agree with you with that because they

are happy with that we are with the regime and you going to look stay quiet because you could have. the situation worsened if you were involved because we are going to you know. crush you. we're going to kill all of you we were going to do both of the country it's are you going to show this to the population the population would take to the streets i would try to exploit the sense because people who are no longer can no longer accept the situation where they live and this is this is the reality you have to accept this also. thank you very much for this interview you were talking to the last seven months or to you this former president of tunisia discussing the impact of the arab spring seventy years on in tunisia and other arab cancerous that's it for this edition of so if you go i will see you next. thank you.

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