time after time say we're going underground on the south bank of london's river thames he entered an exhibition to mock today's one hundredth birthday of nelson mandela with his friend former tony blair cabinet minister lord hain will investigate just seventy two hours after donald trump's meeting with vladimir putin the significance of moscow washington ditto and in the struggle against u.k. backed apartheid but first we're going into the studio to ask after monday's helsinki talks for world peace whether everyone has forgotten about the potentially multi-trillion dollar worldwide trade war our relationship has never been worse. than it is now however that changed. as of about four hours ago the nato world has been rocked by the trump visits even as here in westminster

the minority government have to raise a may because from one breaks a crisis to another new the rule cheerleaders arguably under the guise of journalism a bit terrified of dettol into between the world's nuclear weapons superpower as the president called reporters the enemy of the american people as an american citizen i just personally think today is just an incredibly depressing moment in our time to history the fake news according to trump c.n.n. that work obviously unaware that journalists from gary webb and julian a songe just so many before them have been the enemy of the u.s. state for decades but while the beginnings of world peace may have been breaking out in else what about war on one side of those who believe prospects for a multi-trillion dollar trade war don't matter china needs our us more than we need them i'm going to repeat that because no one believes it in the mainstream media china needs us more than we need dam on the other side of people like the boss of six point three trillion dollar asset management firm larry fink of

blackrock which was contracted by the u.s. government over the bailouts of twenty zero eight if we have a true tariff wars will see the markets down ten to fifteen percent toys i do believe i wouldn't call this a tariff war we haven't still we will see what happens next two hundred billion dollars proposal that the us government has done but while nato nation investors play contingency with international economic development trump continues just say what he did in his campaign slamming globalization is an enemy of the american people recently at a rally in minnesota america has lost one third of its manufacturing jobs since nafta idea originally signed by bill clinton and supported you know. america has. seventy thousand factories since john to the world trade organization how did the bill and henry

back. donald trump their excoriating the w t o now after an arguably the entire globalized trade regime well joining me now via skype from washington d.c. is someone who as a trade negotiator for the united states worked on nafta t.v. and w t o professor math gold matt thanks so much for being on the show just before we get to those more general issues of those huge institutions your reaction to the e.u. japan deal covering six hundred million people this week well of course we knew this was coming and it's a very big accomplishment for the e.u. in japan and it highlights the degree to which america is being completely left behind with president trump's trade policy which is a no win situation for the united states obviously the white house would deny that that's the case but what about lessons of britain obviously in any post brics it environment that deal between the e.u.

and japan took four years yeah it takes many years and bang out of free trade agreement and one of the big problems that great britain has is that it has always been part of the free trade agreements that the european union has negotiated with many other countries in the world and now the united kingdom has to negotiate go back and negotiate with all those countries its own individual free trade agreements which could take many many years and take the kind of negotiation band with that the u.k. just does not have i mean we're leaving in march next year you know they will have deals on the table in place. by then. i would be surprised if the u.k. had a free trade deal in place with every country with which the european union has a free trade deal at that point ok well as a negotiator i'm going to have you think it's conservative that the i.m.f. is suggesting four hundred thirty billion dollars will be the loss to the us

economy of the trade tariffs against china i think the overall losses are bigger than that but i think if you're looking in a narrow sense about the u.s. tariffs either being imposed on imports and what that cost the u.s. economy and other countries retaliation least initial stage and what that cost the u.s. economy it's a reasonable number but the real costs are much much bigger for one thing we're going to be going through round and round of this retaliation against which allegation there's no way to stop it donald trump blundered into a downward spiral that experts like i knew would happen and trump in the people around him did not did not know what happened so it's going to get a lot worse than that plus there are other even bigger implications for the united states to doing this we go to admit donald trump is at least coherent as far as his base is the w t o obviously this week that china has gone to them about taking them

to the courts one trump just leave the w.c. of them. no he might want to be might think he can but that's not even remotely possible the world trade organization is an empty room and table and chairs it's really not the w t o it's the w t o agreements thirty plus multilateral agreements one hundred sixty four countries have signed each of those agreements they are staggeringly complex very broad very deep they constitute an enormous body and international law with which one hundred sixty four countries have a very high levels of compliance if the united states were to pull out of that that combined with the degree and the ways in which john from a violated those rules it could collapse the entire system then what you have to understand is those agreements they represent about ninety percent maybe even ninety five percent of all the international law that exists in the world all the international law that that restrains governments when acting with respect to one

another all the international law that's prevent a world war three in the last seventy five years what he way from that system and worse collapsing that system and trump is on his way to doing that is very very dangerous for global security reasons i don't think congress would let trump do that i think they would they would literally intervene in takeaways authority to do it is that the case with nafta because no doubt you are saying that the boy isn't going to pull out and nafta and he has done or these that's what he says he's been . now i've said from the beginning the exact same thing about nafta that the united states the practical matter can't pull out of nafta for different reasons and i've said that congress would do exactly the same thing that if he pulled out of the agreement congress would take away his authority to stop complying with the agreement and i believe was correct about that i've certainly been correct about that so far and i'm quite convinced that going forward will be correct you see the reasons drum may give and this support is for doing this may not be the same as the un's trade and development uncle ted but developing countries that according to

have lost seven hundred billion dollars a year thanks to the w t o hundreds of billions lost of the poorest nations of the earth they going to be applauding trump right now actually i don't think so first of all i don't agree with those numbers i think certain things going on the w t o cost them money but other things going on with the w t o agreements benefit them greatly and i'm not sure i agree with those numbers i'd have to look at the where they came from but i think the degree to which. really are the pillars of the foundations of the global trading system caused destabilization and global level on a global security level i don't think that that's helpful at all for developing countries and i think that you know when superpowers get into wars which they do they often fight through developing countries proxies i think the degree to which this body of international law stabilizes the world and limits war is also very helpful developing countries so i'm not sure that developing countries are coming

up behind with the global trading system and i certainly don't believe maybe coming out ahead if donald trump collapses it the basic name makes a difference if you die of poverty and you die because you. buy a war plan. yeah it's listen there's there's nothing about war that's pretty you know i did three civilian tours in iraq trying to do democracy building there and listen i'm you know i'm not a fan of it and i know i have a cute appreciation for the value of averting it you see the way you were talking about things not being able to happen some people didn't expect the trump summit to happen in helsinki the way it seems to have played out i mean clearly this is ministration once a change in the global architecture. you've been used to certainly has seen a trade negotiator for so many is. no question the biggest winner in the world as

a consequence of donald trump's presidency is the man who put donald trump in the american presidency and that's flattery putin. he's got the united states and china the other two super of our powers at each other's throats he's got the. big wars and united states cutting off its relationships with every one of our largest trading partners and our closest friends in the world including europe and canada and mexico every single thing that donald trump has done that's been very dangerous for the united states and very bad for the united states and for the world has been very good for putin there's no question every u.s. intelligence agencies in agreement that putin put trump in the white house there's some disagreement about whether any one of the trump team assisted putin and that's what robert dollars investigating with that putin put trump in the white house is agreed upon by everyone the way which trump is benefiting putin is not in dispute and at the end of the day it's fairly obvious after this summit to anyone for whom

it was an obvious before that putin is completely manipulating trump. going to say the russian federation oversea deny that but then if and that's certainly the view that you're reflecting is that is the view certainly of what were called new york liberals you are you being there nafta t.p. talks people talking about the green rooms at the w t o a corporate interests not invited to this white house they know putting pressure on the white house because for so long so many global activists have hated these agreements like nafta and so forth and they believe that it's corporate interests that have been there in the shadows organizing things they not let in through the white house oval office no. that's a good question but i have to go back and say that the concern about u.s. national security with respect to the relationship with trump is not a concern of neo liberals it's a concern of everybody i know who is an expert in national security many of whom are quite conservative but having said that the answer to your question is it is it

is a misperception that the global trading system serves corporations and doesn't serve everyday people it's a correct perception that corporations lobby and get in the door of congress and in the door of the white house and everyday people and sometimes their interests don't get in the door as well particularly their consumer interests and their labor interests which also represented washington by consumer groups and labor groups but not as powerfully as corporate interests but in the end the global trading system all these trade agreements actually serve everybody's interests and they're very complex and their impact is complex and most people who are opposed to trade agreements and their impact on the united states i wouldn't be opposed if they understood them better and just finally and very briefly isn't it ironic then that this global trading system was a big part of the twenty zero eight crisis ghibli and it led to the rise of donald trump jeremy corbyn here in britain and the rise of new movements in europe and of

course brics of yahoo group i don't agree with that at all here in the united states it was president w. bush's deregulation in the financial sector that sent our economy off the cliff but the global trading system has shifted the american economic demographic though it has cost us a lot of jobs in the center of the country for non college educated people and gained a larger number of better jobs on the coasts and elsewhere for college educated people and that has affected our politics and that's something that unfortunately we really don't have the power to prevent it's like going to the shore spreading your arms and trying to stop the tide from moving in trade agreements don't cause that problem trade agreements slightly improve the upside and slightly be greece the downside of that problem but they don't cause that problem and they're not making the problem worse they're making it only slightly better so that's a problem but it's not trade agreements that are causing it or has a mag gold thank you. thank you after the break we go to the nelson mandela

seventeen year he exhibition also attended by prince harry and mega-mall gold was full of a cabinet minister and the anti-apartheid activist old pain with that mandela's liberal legacy actually improved living standards for ordinary south africans told us of all coming up in part two of going underground. seventy four design submissions. seven thousand pilings. to join judges. and eight hundred sixty nonstop days of. the russian w.b. a championship. and

a russian stuff. show you how. long the crimean bridge was built. witnessed the construction of when you need to transport on terrain that will help knowledge of crimea be close to most of those you won't go for more familiar with it a bit by tom. i've been saying the numbers mean something they matter to us as over one trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crime stamping each day. eighty five percent of global wealth you longs to be all for rich eight point six percent market saw thirty percent minus minus.