the u.s. and russia should at least dialogue to start a process of mending a very damaged relationship much of the media in the foreign policy swamp reacted with an apocalyptic meltdown as the established it's my. time after time say we're going underground on the south bank of london's river thames here an exhibition about today's one hundredth birthday of nelson mandela with his friend former tony blair cabinet minister lord hain will investigate just seventy two hours after donald trump's meeting with vladimir putin the significance of moscow washington dettol and in the struggle against u.k. backed apartheid but first we're going into the studio to ask after monday's health inky talks for world peace whether everyone has forgotten about the potentially

multi-trillion dollar worldwide trade war our relationship has never been worse. than it is now however that changed. as of about four hours ago the nato world has been rocked by the trump visits even as here in westminster the minority government have to raise a may because from one breaks a crisis to another new the rule cheerleaders arguably under the guise of journalism a bit terrified of dettol into between the world's nuclear weapons superpower as the president called reporters the enemy of the american people as an american citizen i just personally think today is just an incredibly depressing moment in our time to history the fake news according to trump c.n.n. that work obviously unaware that journalists from gary webb and julian a songe just so many before them have been the enemy of the u.s. state for decades but while the beginnings of world peace may have been breaking

out in else what about war on one side of those who believe prospects for a multi-trillion dollar trade war don't matter china needs our us more than we need them i'm going to repeat that because no one believes it in the mainstream media china needs us more than we need dam on the other side of people like the boss of six point three trillion dollar asset management firm larry fink of blackrock which was contracted by the u.s. government over the bailouts of twenty zero eight if we have a true tariff wars will see the markets down ten to fifteen percent toys i do believe i wouldn't call this a tariff war we haven't still we will see what happens next two hundred billion dollars proposal that the us government has done but while nato nation investors play contingency with international economic development trump continues just say what he did in his campaign slamming globalization is an enemy of the american people recently at a rally in minnesota how america has lost one third of its manufacturing jobs since

nafta idea originally signed by bill clinton and supported it. america has. seventy thousand factories since john to the world trade organization under the bill and hillary back. from barracks korea aging the w t o now after an arguably the entire globalized trade regime well joining me now via skype from washington d.c. is someone who as a trade negotiator for the united states worked on nafta t.v. and w t o professor math gold matt thanks so much for being on the show just before we get to those more general issues of those huge institutions your reaction to the e.u. japan deal covering six hundred million people this week well of course we knew this was coming and it's a very big accomplishment for the e.u. in japan and it highlights the degree to which america is being completely left

behind with president trump's trade policy which is a no win situation for the united states obviously the white house would deny that that's the case but what about the lessons of britain obviously in any post brics it environment that deal between the e.u. and japan took four years yeah it takes many years to bang out of free trade agreement and one of the big problems that great britain has is that it has always been part of the free trade agreements that the european union has negotiated with many other countries in the world and now the united kingdom has to negotiate go back and negotiate with all those countries its own individual free trade agreements which could take many many years and take the kind of negotiation band with that the u.k. just does not have i mean we're leaving in march next year you know they will have deals on the table in place. by then. i would be surprised if the

u.k. had a free trade deal in place with every country with which the european union has a free trade deal at that point ok well as a negotiator i'm going to if you think it's conservative that the i.m.f. is suggesting four hundred thirty billion dollars will be the loss to the us economy of the trade tariffs against china i think the overall losses are bigger than that but i think if you're looking in a narrow sense about the u.s. tariffs either being imposed on imports and what that cost the u.s. economy and other countries retaliation least initial stage and what that cost the u.s. economy it's a reasonable number but the real costs are much much bigger for one thing we're going to be going through round and round of this retaliation against which allegation there's no way to stop it donald trump blundered into a downward spiral that experts like i knew would happen and trump in the people

around him did not did not know what happened so it's going to get a lot worse than that plus there are other even bigger implications for the united states to doing this we go to admit done the drum is at least coherent as far as his base is the w t o obviously this week china has gone to them about taking them to the courts one trump just leave the doubly few of them. no he might want to be might think he can but that's not even remotely possible the world trade organization is an empty room and table and chairs it's really not the w t o it's the w t o agreements thirty plus multilateral agreements one hundred sixty four countries have signed each of those agreements they are staggeringly complex very broad very deep they constitute an enormous body and international law with which one hundred sixty four countries have a very high levels of compliance if the united states were to pull out of that that combined with the degree and the ways in which john from

a violated those rules it could collapse the entire system then what you have to understand is those agreements they represent about ninety percent maybe even ninety five percent of all the international law that exists in the world all the international law that that restrains governments when acting with respect to one another all the international law that's prevent a world war three in the last seventy five years what he way from that system in worse collapsing that system and trump is on his way to doing that is very very dangerous for global security reasons i don't think congress would let trump do that i think they would they would literally intervene in takeaways authority to do it is that the case with nafta because no doubt you are saying that that trouble isn't going to pull out and the nafta and he has done or these that's what he says he's done. now i've said from the beginning the exact same thing about nafta that the united states the practical matter can't pull out of nafta for different reasons and i've said that congress would do exactly the same thing that if he pulled out of the agreement congress would take away his authority to stop

complying with the agreement and i believe was correct about that i've certainly been correct about that so far and i'm quite convinced that going forward they'll still be correct you see the reasons drum may give and this support is for doing this may not be the same as the un's trade and development uncle ted but developing countries that according to have lost seven hundred billion dollars a year thanks to the w t o hundreds of billions lost of the poorest nations on earth are they going to be applauding trump right now actually i don't think so first of all i don't agree with those numbers i think certain things going on the w t o cost them money but other things going on with the w t o agreements benefit them greatly and i'm not sure i agree with those numbers i'd have to look at the where they came from but i think the degree to which. really are the pillars the foundations of the global trading system caused destabilization and global level on

a global security level i don't think that that's helpful at all for developing countries and i think that you know when superpowers get into wars which they do they often fight through developing countries proxies i think the degree to which this body of international law stabilizes the world and limits war is also very helpful developing countries so i'm not sure that developing countries are coming up behind with a global trading system and i certainly don't believe they'd be coming out ahead if donald trump collapses it the basic makes a difference if you die of poverty and you die because you've been blown by a war plan. yeah it's listen there's there's nothing about war that's pretty you know i did three civilian tours in iraq trying to do democracy building there and listen i'm you know i'm not a fan of it and i know i have a cute appreciation for the value of averting it you see the way you were talking about things not being able to happen some people didn't expect the trump summit to

happen in helsinki the way it seems to have played out i mean clearly this is ministration once a change in the global architecture. you've been used to certainly has seen a trade negotiator for so many is. no question the biggest winner in the world as a consequence of donald trump's presidency is the man who put donald trump in the american presidency and that's flattery putin. he's got the united states and china the other two super of our powers at each other's throats he's got the. big wars and united states cutting off its relationships with every one of our largest trading partners and our closest friends in the world including europe and canada and mexico every single thing that donald trump has done that's been very dangerous for the united states and very bad for the united states and for the world has been very good for putin there's no question every u.s. intelligence agencies in agreement that putin put trump in the white house there's

some disagreement about whether any one of the trump team assisted putin and that's what robert dollars investigating with that putin put trump in the white house is agreed upon by everyone the way which trump is benefiting putin is not in dispute and at the end of the day it's fairly obvious after this summit to anyone for whom it was an obvious before that putin is completely manipulating trump that there is a there are the russian federation oversea deny that but then if and that's certainly the view that you're reflecting is that is the view certainly of what gold new liberals you are you being there nafta t.p. talks people talking about the green rooms at the w t o a corporate interests not invited to this white house they know putting pressure on the white house because for so long so many global activists have hated these agreements like nafta and so forth and they believe that it's corporate interests that have been there in the shadows organizing things are they not let in through

the white house oval office no. that's a good question but i have to go back and say that the concern about u.s. national security with respect to the relationship with trump is not a concern of neo liberals it's a concern of everybody i know who is an expert in national security many of whom are quite conservative but having said that the answer to your question is it is it is a misperception that the global trading system serves corporations and doesn't serve everyday people it's a correct perception that corporations lobby and get in the door of congress and in the door of the white house and everyday people and sometimes their interests don't get in the door as well particularly their consumer interests and their labor interests which also represented washington by consumer groups and labor groups but not as powerfully as corporate interests but in the end the global trading system all these trade agreements actually serve everybody's interests and they're very complex and their impact is complex and most people who are opposed to trade

agreements and their impact on the united states wouldn't be opposed if they understood them better and just finally and very briefly isn't it ironic then that this global trading system was a big part of the twenty zero eight crisis ghibli and it led to the rise of donald trump jeremy corbyn here in britain and the rise of new movements in europe and of course brics it now a group i don't agree with at all here in the united states it was president w. bush's deregulation in the financial sector that sent our economy off the cliff but the global trading system has shifted the american economic demographic though it has cost us a lot of jobs in the center of the country for non college educated people and gained a larger number of better jobs on the coasts and elsewhere for college educated people and that has affected our politics and that's something that unfortunately we really don't have the power to prevent it's like going to the shore spreading your arms and trying to stop the tide from moving in trade agreements don't cause

that problem trade agreements slightly improve the upside and slightly decrease the downside of that problem but they don't cause that problem and they're not making the problem worse they're making it only slightly better so that's a problem but it's not trade agreements that are causing it or has a mag gold thank you. thank you after the break we go to the nelson mandela send teen you re exhibition also attended by prince harry and make a model who was born and they have a cabinet minister and the anti-apartheid activist old pain whether mandela's liberal legacy actually improved living standards for ordinary south africans told us a book coming up in part two of going underground. seventy four design submissions just say seven thousand pilings.

to join judges. and eight hundred sixty nonstop days of. a russian w.b. a championship. and a russian stuff. show you how. long the crimean bridge was built. witnessed the construction of when you need to transport. that will help out of crimea the cost of most all those you know what google more familiar quite a bit by trill.

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and. i. was the nelson mandela a free man. taking his first steps into going to south africa. boy. determined. not to. miss not. into the.

welcome back where at the queen elizabeth hall on london southbank today to celebrate the one hundredth birthday of a.n.c. president nelson mandela backed by russia and china mandela was a tireless activist in south africa but also in later life a powerful voice against the iraq war and sanctions on cuba he's remembered here at the nelson mandela santini exhibition one of the organizers of the exhibition is former labor cabinet minister and the apartheid activist mona hay new joins me now thanks so much for inviting us to this amazing exhibition tell me about the significance of an exhibition about a leader from a country now talking about as a leader of a brics country in the developing world and the emerging economies. of the south well first of all the exhibition is free it's been able to be said because of general sponsorship and we were thrilled that the the jew conductress of sussex opened this because that is in the. bulldust to attract younger people particularly

to learn about monday early in their thousands and tens of tens of thousands of visitors here over the next month running up until the nineteenth of august but of course for the prime of his life nelson mandela was in prison twenty seven years of his life in prison most of it on robben island in a tiny cell where his head hit one side of of the bed and his feats hit the other side of the the war he was crammed in there and it was really tough struggle and the international mc of ponce movement was led from here in london so we wanted to bring the sex of bishan from johannesburg specially curated for london to bring the story of the international struggle alongside nelson mandela because the two are intimately connected when you look at the history of the great free nelson mandela concert at wembley stadium. at which rock bands and stars of the will

played in one nine hundred eighty eight to celebrate his seventieth birthday one hundred thousand filled the stadium six hundred million watched it live on television events like that and much tougher of in stopping the spring ball or white spring rugby tours taking action to try and get economic boycotts imposed it was a big holiday struggle and this exhibition brings it to life and reminds everybody of the history because you say london being an important place for this struggle because britain supported apartheid south africa and one of the conservative parties favorite prime ministers margaret thatcher called mandela a terrorist going to your book your new book why even when he was sixteen leaving south africa. did you know then that he wasn't a terrorist and also monday denounced five years before he walked to freedom and began to transform the country and the guy. a peaceful change from the evil of

a policy to a nonracial democracy he was denounced five years before that by the british prime minister's a terrorist why did that she do that because the west with the exception of scandinavian countries like sweden in particular did not support the anti-apartheid struggle they claim to be against apartheid who wouldn't the most evil institutionalized system of racism the world has ever seen who wouldn't say they were against it but they didn't do anything about it on the contrary they gave a nod and a wink to the protests or a government to continue to sell you know says and they sold our whips they continued the trade they sold tortured quick moment and so on and trained a lot of their intelligence services who committed assassinations against international and c.f.r. said leaders tried to assassinate me with a letter bomb which fortunate tell me that all of this letter bomb in one hundred seventy two well i suddenly opened this or rather my younger sister opened this

bulky envelope on the on the breakfast table with a pile of campaign a mail as was has happened to me as a party leader at that time in london and there was this horrific thing that i'd never seen constructed in bolsa would have terminals in the warriors and the only thing that saved me according to scotland yard's antiterrorist squad that descended on the house and made the bomb safe was a a fault in the trigger mechanism because it was a group of exactly the same design that murdered ruth first noted anti-apartheid activist in mozambique in one thousand nine hundred two the wife of the going as party leader just the wife of the a.n.c. leader yes and communist party leader south african from his party leader just level. and and who was responsible for that on the i mean for london it was elective is i mean this is just this picture inquiry into secret services in so on i mean there was anyone arrested there when nobody was omitted. it was exactly the

same type of letter bomb sent by the south african security services by boss as it was called very appropriately the bureau's state security council appointed leaders around the world and killing many of them is when the british government was supporting the south african government well they would claim they were supporting the south african government but in practice by default or actively by supplying arms and so on they were and for instance they opposed our international this is a conservative government opposed our international campaign to isolate white south african sports teams why was that important you may think where does sport fit into that the big picture because it's in the end the economy and all the people police states alive the apartheid police state in this case because white south africans were absolutely fanatical about their sport the world said it. treated a policy it's in almost shunned apartheid so it said but actually white south

african teams were fitted in london in twickenham rugby grounds at lord's cricket ground the international stadia of the world despite a proxy even though they didn't represent the country they represented the white minority only so action against sports action or across the board was very very important grannie's boycotting outspan oranges trade unionist taking a solidarity action people trying to get manufacturers not to sell their arms to to to white south africa all of this action then with the internal resistance led by monday. and his the president of the a.n.c. while he was in imprisoned all of a time but he was based here in that resistance inside the country then sparked a change that was supported and provoked from external pressure is your family were thrown out basically for their opposition to it but what if they make. of the armed

struggle when when mandela embraced it as a means to overthrow the apartheid system my mother and father both south african born and i was brought up in pretoria as a young south african boy they fairly uniquely amongst white south africans there was only a tiny minority ate my name on the oversea who took a stand against apartheid because the white minority was so privileged but they also understood why no nelson mandela had had to resort to guerrilla action had to resort to on resistance not to target innocent civilians in the way the terrible wounds that civilians were killed of a few were killed by the strategy hundreds wounded president or wounded and yes we believe was new to them but the strategy most of it was like this there was other action taken bundle a decided on the strategy to hit the states and he was a fighter the armed wing he was but remember remember he didn't found the armed wing in one nine hundred sixty one nine hundred sixty the armed wing of the ups and

nash african national congress m.k. i'm always sees where he didn't found it nor did his the fellow leaders embark on that strategy lightly only after they'd been banned as an organization only off strikes stay at home as bus boy scouts ran boycotts protests of his of a peaceful kind only after those had been viciously suppressed by the apostate government did they say we've really got no alternative but point is that at the time when you most need support where if you got that support violence would never have been necessary you don't get it that's the history of struggles for rights and it was certainly the case for monday as a in see it apartheid south africa you don't mention the i.m.f. and he came under huge criticism for selling out the nineteen fifties freedom charter which you do quote from in the book but not the chapter was told about nationalization of the mines i mean what about the grid. this is

a myth he was basically he died in a south africa more unequal than under apartheid is as the council of churches i've ever been judges of that's true and the world today and the eck and the neo liberal economic system governing it which which infects south africa just as it does every other country is creating a much more on equal world and he didn't want that now if you look at that the transition that the mastermind and they lived there is criticism of a particular from young radicals in south africa today another saying that he compromised too much essentially the deal was whites controlled continued to control the economy. with black increasing black economic empowerment but blacks the majority control the government the democracy side of it what i think should i don't think that was unable to manage if you have to understand one there was strategy and in my view not just understand it but to support it to recognize

this was a mighty police state he had to negotiate with his of the presses to give up their power that's very rarely if ever been done in history there's a choice in government and it would be good if it yeah but equal inequality is worse here in britain inequality is worse in every part of the world but inequality is not to do with that it's to do with the fact that we have an economic system across the world which in rich is a few and to break from that in one country is really hard now having said that i think the a.n.c. should have been done a done much more not just for black economic empowerment at the top putting black businesspeople on the boards of companies rather than just whites as had been the case but actually empower workers from below and gave them a stake in their own industries and the stake in the well then that mine to change the picture and that's what's got to be done no thank you thank you and if you.

where in london you can see the milton mandela santini exhibition at the south bank center's queen elizabeth pool until the nineteenth of august and that's it for the show back on saturday the worst violence in northern a year to speak to the song the human rights lawyer the new goodman about the british government who did with loyalist paramilitaries to kill his father till then he would talk about social media we'll see on saturday sixty nine years to the day the united states senate ratified the north atlantic treaty establishing nato nations have been responsible for aerial bobbitt about yugoslavia afghanistan and iraq. the very idea of a trump the summit was controversial from the start they met in helsinki and essentially agreed the u.s. and russia should at least dialogue to start a process of mending a very damaged relationship much of the media in the foreign policy swamp reacted with an apocalyptic meltdown how does the establishment its money.

come to arrangements and that's what the us president says critics are suffering from after a huge backlash by mainstream media and democrats the helsinki summit with the russian president. and investigation reveals that facebook moderators did not remove the page of a far right activists as it generated revenue. and victims of the two thousand and fifteen paris terror attacks either feel rejected the offer of court refuses to blame the french state for its handling of the tragedy. this is our to international coming to you live from the russian capital with me welcome to the program.