rypien union which is a political and economic activity that russia is eager to develop its relationship with and nato which russia sees as occasionally aggressive military alliance do you think even makes sense for russia or for that matter for the europeans to try to distinguish between these two entities but of course it does make sense as you just explained very brilliantly there are two very different entities. and indeed the e.u. is a peaceful entity and only a defensive. and of course nato is also a defensive organization but when we don't include other countries than the e.u. . but you know on the other hand i would say that since you are raising the issue of nato that. while i think that russia. has. complex relationships with nato and with the e.u.

it's fair enough for russia to express you know its own interest the kind of alliances that happens in happen in its. neighbors but i wonder how would you navigate those very difficult relationship because on the one hand as i said russia wants to have you know better trade ties with the european countries but when those countries are kind of from the kremlin perspective into the nato alliance that makes it. very difficult to deal on the diplomatic level and i am sure you've heard we've had a number of scandals recently the russian diplomats have been expelled from greece over the major controversy surrounding the suppose it's russia's interference in the domestic politics of greece dealing with the with its long running dispute over macedonia what is a fair game in it when it comes to europe i mean because as i said before there is

trade there is diplomatic relationship and then there is another aspect to it which is security relationship well it is a complex question indeed and you raise of course the latest example of the methadone in question and indeed i'm not cheered to say whether the expulsions were grounded on what kind of information you know i'm just an academic i don't have inside information but we do know is that a russian businessman or did she poor pay whatever people who belong to the extremes you know on both sides in grief and in north macedonia people who have rejected an agreement that we have taken the press back greenman between the two countries we've taken twenty five years to get where we are it's an amazing agreement so there are modern agreements it's an agreement of deep reconciliation

between two countries of course over the name that becomes north methadone and over the sharing of identity between two countries but also lots of other elements of of cooperation and so when you say well you used the word country into nato in asking me about this and i would say very strongly knowing all my friends in scope in north macedonia that they wouldn't all of those who signed the agreement under or by minute. i would not considered that they have been lured they would consider that indeed this agreement this is the great price for the great reward for their country to both and turn nato and to start negotiations with the european language be fair here because i think it's clear from the public opinion polls in macedonia that the public is quite divided on this issue and we had previous examples in other balkan countries of people sort of being i wouldn't say pressured

the alert as the term i used before but kind of prodded towards. that military alliance and that obviously comes on the back of many other far more fraught issues one of them is the issue of ukraine another one is a show of georgia the third one the major one was there an issue off nader interference and regime change in libya which absolutely appalled not only russia but i think ultimately led to the major immigration crisis in in europe so you know. this is definitely again this is a formal structure and people who belong to nato they they they talk about the peaceful nature of that alliance but when push comes to shove this alliance das act very approach mystically and sometimes i think russia would argue acts against the best interest of humanity as was the case in in libya so is it really such a surprise that russia would feel so apprehensive about this alliance moving ever closer to its borders. well i understand that is

a question that is very important in russia and it's one can hear that but in your question you raise so many different issues it is very hard to respond with a general question so if you're asking me whether the intervention of nato in libya was a great success i'm with you not really i mean it may be in the very short term to avoid. mini death in benghazi it wasn't a bad idea but it was a very mismanaged and we have a bit of a mess in libya right now and indeed you're completely right that this has contributed to the so-called refugee crisis that's a different issue from nato in the eastern neighborhood or rather the what i was called the shared and disputed and contested neighborhood between russia on one hand and the european union on the other and within that again. i ask you shouldn't we distinguish between the former soviet space the georgia has and ukraine of this

world where yes we could have a whole conversation about who wanted nato and ukraine itself was divided and all of that we can have that conversation that's again different from southeast europe from the balkans who were never a soviet space which historic even under tito were always in between which of course since the end of the cold war have themselves expressed in many different ways their wanting to be part of the european union and which of course themselves are complicated when you're serbia is not served our or bows now are not the same story as albania montenegro are indeed north macedonia so we would need to have a complex conversation i certainly do not believe in the spheres of influence i believe in each country's right to self-determination but i think that concept is being abused way too often and one thing that unites all there is profiles all those cases. that i mentioned before for russia is the mode of decision making

before because if you go back to libya and if you actually analyze how the decision to overstep the un mandate was made it was made because of two individuals it was made because of the colors are crazy and david cameron and those two individuals were able to override all the institutional save gars that europe was so proud about so that decision to ruin the country and. cause a great havoc to the rest of the continent was made by very very close very very narrow group of people and there is no guarantee for russia that the same group of people or different people of a similar mentality will not make similar decisions when it comes to russia ukraine or any other country in the russia's neighborhood that really interned destabilize this country gender stand what i'm trying to say well absolutely and indeed first of all it's important to stress that lived that was not an action but as you said british and french but in any case you are very right in using aside the historical

interpretation of what happened leaving aside the fact that of course we need to learn very deep lessons about how the u.n. functions about how intervention is managed collectively all of this is right but at the vet but i'm not sure i would agree with you that therefore as we look at the libya story we should obsess including the media by saying oh well it's atavistic you know the west has it in its blood that they will do the same in russia in ukraine or wherever i think the west first of all has learned its lesson with afghanistan and iraq and indeed libya i think in in a way sadly because in syria i'm not sure that the west has necessarily done the right thing or any of the external intervenors but indeed you can see in syria that when it comes to intervening in another country when it comes to overriding sovereignty you know russia helps itself to so. it's a very widely shared problem if it is

a problem and we all know that under certain circumstances it may be right to intervene that's why the international community came up with this notion of r t r two p. responsibility to protect i am not saying that r two p. is a reason to intervene anywhere specifically but i'm just saying that this debate about intervention about what you call you know in russia sovereign democracy and all of these issues is a difficult one it's not black and white yes we should refrain from intervening and imposing our will on other countries but in certain specific cases then it's certain specific very restrictive cases we could also defend the intervention professor nickell it is it could be very easily argued on the kremlin side that libya was that specific case when russia actually did not use its veto power when it trusted that was that the west was going after the good thing but it just couldn't help itself you know you know the rest is history now you said something

before that the rest actually learned its lessons if it indeed learned its lessons why do you think it needs to push with the nato expansion further and further wouldn't it be you know wiser it's you you know. call it quick hold on that and allow that trust to be established within the continent and proceed from there and who knows maybe that trust would be enough to proceed with our t.p.s. later on why do you think that issue with macedonia and keep pushing for the expansion of nato is so present earlier on oksana you spoke about where countries should do what they want and you know in terms of institution think about it as supply and demand nato supplies itself and whatever service it gives and countries demand ask for membership or not and would you agree that in all of these stories we need to start from the countries themselves even if we're talking about ukraine or whatever countries but in the balkans and specific in macedonia today we have

countries who maybe they're wrong you know i don't know but they themselves their government and majorities of their population would like to be part of these institutions there is this kind of attraction whether it's the e.u. in the money in the markets that it represents and perhaps the values whether it's nato with the sense that it will bring some kind of security and like mindedness they demanded they asked for it you know macedonian friends are north madisonian friends the reason that they change their own name to north methadone and this is not an easy thing to do they have a huge pushback domestically they have extremists who are saying no no no we don't want a concession with greece but they think they think the public opinion and the government that the promise of nato membership in e.u. membership is the right thing they're the ones who are asking for it they may be asking for it and yet it is after the parliament to ratify that decision and i

think the whole case of russian interference was based on allegations that supposedly that well connected businessman was agitating against or it's a fixation so probably if he was indeed doing that there was some space for turning that pinion. one way or another anyway president gladys we have to leave it there i really appreciate the spirited discussion that you're treated us to today thank you very much for being with us and i encourage our viewers to keep this book conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here and will depart.

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