they keep calling the brand features amongst the best getting the message of the strength and quality of scotland across wealth and thanks for the sure linda says it's a first to be heard from linda all go on scotland's beautiful landscape or night stands in culture impressive parliament sally says fantastic show again but michael gove is right as if you can agree with them wholeheartedly that scotland produces great argonne caddis yes we do and finally came to said great show the cat is called the brown something that was overlooked are london water free from fracking good point that's why the saltire is a brand of quality now over to alex's college cream just outside the high school and twenty years ago the house of commons chamber was not dominated by bricks but by scotland and the mom steering that devolution legislation through was her mcleish now in the u.k. government's plans for bret's that many believe that the principles of devolution and compass and that legislation are under threat as never before and did that

battle between the u.k. and scholarship ministrations is now being played out in front of the supreme court i saw stars time in the cliche i remember that campaign to establish the modern scottish parliament. along at a little party politics in the citadel of central fife you had some interesting political opponents over the years all of them came and all of them went i certainly harbor and one of the most bizarre incidents was when i hosted the young the smog this is jacob jacob riis mog not he's a loss trees father so he came up to kind of them get some experience politically so he fought me for four weeks of course you went don't very badly but what was interesting was my job during the campaign was to save him from places in fife save him from people that were going to just abuse on so i was he welcomed so at the end of the contest his father who was a very distinguished william reese morgan editor of the times here in this letter

saying dear mr macleish i don't normally write to labor m.p.'s in this way but thanks very much for chaperoning my young son and his first political lobos now i think if i had known then what i know no i would have been so you're responsible for however for blacks can announce on your program that i am responsible for research morgan is present form that can you imagine a situation where you see him today described in the house of commons as the their own home ember from the eighteenth century imagine a young the smog with a double breasted suit when i reflect on it it was quite an experience from his will in nineteen ninety seven you're late in the came. right hand man to deliver the devolution commitment to the referendum campaign in the the double question campaign which are essential memories of that well it was a great campaign in many ways and many you know we knew that the white paper which is a very good way to who was going to be well received by scots it was good to see sean connery and gotten blown sitting in the scene boat as they crossed from one side of

edinburgh to one side of but it was also a historic part of it because he was a great nation for the first time and in seventeen zero seven getting some substantial pose some real person being recognised as i suggested at that time so it was good to be. of the legislation goodness it was a remarkable campaign i mean. double sean collier and i spoke with them in the their old high school which was the original site of the scottish parliament was meant to be in the in the one nine hundred seventy s. so we both were a public meeting a political meeting which one clearly you know and i think the good thing about our it was there was a you know coming together of scotland at that time you know all the differences you know the s.n.p. labor the greens whatever but nevertheless you just felt at that moment and ninety seven in september that this is a there's a unity of purpose around and it was a good feeling i think even the weather may have been good but it did you know set us on a road no of course which is continuing to unfold so on into the parliament reconvened

as well ewing said and ninety one thousand nine donald you're the first minister but not the parliament building we have no was the temple of parliament up in the moment the assembly hall of the of the church of scotland we're now i mean it was good to get i mean if you look at the sequence you know ninety seven we got the white paper through we got the act through in ninety eight of course the opening of parliament with imagine the queen. up in the old church building and in one thousand nine so that was a great two years in the life of scotland going history of scotland but it was also i think when i look back on it when i took the bill through the floor of the house and you know the floor of the house quite well i spent one hundred twenty hours at the dispatched box and the nearest i came to grief was when one of the conservers through the scotsman newspaper me but apart from that i was plain sailing though i didn't do so with them in the public gets going and the young pesky leader of the opposition the size to resign so it looks all that was me who saw plain sailing for yourself then tragedy struck of course will have done on untimely

death you have a contest with jack mcconnell to become first minister become first minister of great good will behind you and you set about some of your the key projects like free personal careful the elderly you must on quest. i suspect with a civil service on the level of well you know from your own experience getting something new through is very very difficult there was skepticism on the part of the civil service a lot of my political colleagues were not very supportive because they had bought this idea that nothing nothing should be free at the point of need no jumping back to your career where some of the great points in scottish life has been that feature asian fee's not feature asian fees but free at the point of need you know breaking new breaking down barriers so prepare snow here for me was something and you know one of the benefits was to see it actually happen in my own home my father who sadly died he had dementia and he got the benefit of some of the provisions that we had put through in the scottish parliament a free personal care our people think of the parliament upon us the question which

is often asked was the scottish power done for us that we rate at the top of the of the list of of validations of having a lot of power well i think when you look at jack's period you know the ban on smoking in public places i think we were the fourth country in the world free personal care free tuition fees and also no trying to stop the excesses of alcohol we're putting a tax on that at the point of sale that could have happened at westminster this can only hartman scotland with a more progressive society saying look we need to do these things but it never could hartmut westminster and one of my features today my sad sad memories of westminster is it really hasn't moved on much then broiled in a strange expenses issue because it was really a hangover from westminster that nothing to do with the scottish parliament. looking back and taking in proportion do you think no looking back give no we'll see the that sort of thing should have been survivable because i certainly did that type and think that what would you tell your mother was survival i think that's

very true and i look at what's happened since then and various things but at heart the moment time alec and i had to react to that moment in time and i felt in the best interest everyone that i should decide to resign it certainly wasn't easy and there were some dark moments running up to that and of course after the it was a question of rehabilitation and i've always believed in terms of public service i've always believed since i stepped on the public service is still me and i've hopefully put into scottish politics scottish life a lot of the stuff that i might have done if i had remained in politics so i'm not too regretful of what happened things could always be different but you never make progress if you dwell on the past so that must be really your part what do i do that how do i recover from the. new and you go on missions i did you had you quite well while it was difficult the immediate period was difficult just getting over the what had happened but then i said to myself you know you've been a public servant all your life. continue to be one so i was forced by those that i

call them yourselves i think first for the president's commission of other member correctly where i was very troubled with the the number of people incarcerated in scotland obviously overcrowded prisons and looking for looking for how to achieve a consensus to say that the short sentence is actually do not deal a good list of all the prisoners and least of all society and you can but so do you feel that what came forward from the prison commissioners has been put into effect it has but i think the results have been slightly disappointing for me because i think the idea was that you know the only way we can tackle present problems is to have less people in prison i think you under read the deal and we can only look at the relative to what's happened so for the board of my two free years as first minister just a sceptical mccaskill was coming. what chile to every cabinet meeting to the port that the the present population had exceeded tol'able limits in a certain location and who were going to find accommodation etc doesn't happen though that doesn't happen because although the prison population is drastically

reduced we haven't seen the constant increases which were well there previously at a time of course we're caught it plain has fallen dramatically here but i think the point is and you're appreciate this in terms of progressive politics i expect more of scotland you know we have been a very punitive country in so many ways it's changed dramatically but as far as i'm concerned i'd like to do another review just know unsolicited as it were which could say look this is what we didn't do next but we've made progress but my view not enough for a country that aspires to be nordic in relation to what it might want to do in criminal justice that's that that's a goal for us if you can claim some progress and perhaps not quite as much in scottish football which one of your other great commission tass reorganizing the structure of scottish football where you know every function i go to i say that i try and do two things in my life one is to try and get the labor party elected and secondly see if scottish would go at the pen looking forward i'm not sure maybe successor will either but i've just put the finishing touches to

a new book that will be published the book festival in august and it's basically the future of scottish football requiem of renaissance oh this is a reasonably sized book if it's about the future scottish it is and it's got more dreams in at this time and casting on my own memories back to the golden age between the seventy's eighty's and early ninety's but i think the present commission report is probably more progressive and is achieved more than maybe my book or my previous review had done and frankly you people are almost unique position of being the very top of scottish politics at a time for you be reasonable so you saw devolution as an alternative to independence albeit not nestle a final settlement not cast in the still two period during the independence or for the end of the twenty. fourteen worse. through shove you are the lie even as it were because i knew how sympathetic you'd become to the in the palace case to situation no where you're recasting new view in the light of bricks that something

which will ten years ago neither you or i would have thought that we feasible that the u.k. would desire the european structures how decide germany beautiful you well not surprisingly i'm still on the point you raise a very important one i mean the sadness about when bracks it is just a collective act of self harm you know it's michael bloomfield so you're an act of real stupidity and we're going to suffer and pay for them but we've got to concentrate on the customs union the single market the trade ideas the economy issues but you know the issue is much bigger than that and my interest now is to see that it's all about politics of democracy or governance in britain we're not been governed well and you know to suggest that the conservative government is doing well is no just a bit of a joke on the other hand i think things will change for the simple reason that people beyond know and think do they want to be in the u.k. where we can have such told model where real political issues are disregarded and

we are both to be run or influenced by people like reese morgan boris johnson so i think that's going to change because my view is alec that at the time when the s.n.p. two thousand forty one cents i don't think you can get to a yes vote for independence if you stick by traditional nationalism traditional identity nationality issues you've got to reach out to a wider public so put it like you did you did but the no but no i think is more appropriate let's take the concept of the break up of britain. and northern ireland it is a catastrophe about to happen that all the good work was done by major player may go asunder if we have a border you know a situation where democratic demographics might mean that the northern ireland population mayport some time in the future to be united ireland point one secondly you have a situation in scotland where a lot of scots sources telling me that they're looking into westminster and they can't believe that this can carry on for decades into the future so i think there's

a reappraisal in scotland not diminishing what's been achieved but adding to it and then if you even look at london london may be crying out in the future for a new regional federal structure for britain because it's part of this and we're part of a part to mind that just cannot continue but i think over the next few months the next few years you'll see a maturing of the debate about britain's government about politics and about our democracy and when you look at some of those issues you may want to come to a different conclusion in scotland and possibly ireland then you did before join us after the break for more fascinating insights from scotland fettered first minister had to mcleish being interviewed by the force alex out.

welcome back and the second part of our interview with henry mcleish we turn to a break that means that the constitutional future of scotland and for health you i jump in and there. the turmoil over the last few weeks the continuing turmoil perhaps we should see in the in the house of commons that you were in the house of commons and some pretty good times the mastic debates for example a number of debates were split political parties but how do you in your table has covered ever witnessed anything to to even compare remotely well what we're seeing are no no and i think if people were asked that question in reply honestly then they will confirm i have never seen in my political life such pick my words

carefully such a farce such a continuing fiasco and you know what the source of this is essentially as you well know that thatcher lost her head because of europe john major lost his her commonwealth heard until recently is heading the same way that it was as a sense of it chopped off absolutely the poison all of the good poison in the conservative party has spilled over and now we had the spectacle of david cameron trying to renegotiate which was bogus and then he lets the country loose on a referendum and he is a trump to a rigged referendum and to me the tragedy is that this was never about the this is about the united kingdom no this is about the state of the united kingdom not about the state of europe and then what you had was a succession of cheap patriots as i described them. people who are either delusional and government ideological in government and when you combine those qualities together this is

a pretty dangerous situation i was remarking on. to the one constituent vote the handmaid's tale which is of a program on a bit dystopian america this is the story in britain we're moving to places are like which are not good and the consequences of this mess and i always thought the court. jesters were wheeled out by kings to for entertainment but when you have the court jesters running the place that's a different problem and previously where the government has been falling apart lately major government then the opposition gets itself into a position with it looks like it's ready to assume power even friends of the carbon wing of the labor party wouldn't say it's a condition of the person no no and this is this is why i think it's a crisis because you could conceivably have a general election. six months a year ahead for the conservatives could when i know my mind suggest that that would be bizarre but that's the nature of british politics there would be no gun t.

in the election the labor would when only recently have labor stepped up in the polls and overtake the conservative party and that for me is quite worrying and it stems from the fight it's about like what's happening in europe is happening in america people are sick and tired of those who want to be under us and ambivalent about issues this is a leadership issue i believe passionately that that britain should remain in the european union as a gray edifice a great historical purpose to the whole operation we should be celebrating the up but instead the party has decided to look at the brics it would be concerned about setting people when the nations crying out for leadership on the simple point alec that somebody needs to put the country first sounds a bit old fashioned britain first instead of the future of the conservative party and the conservative party force the morrow i would be too upset of britain for tomorrow as a country that respected in the world a country that no started dismantle itself that worries me enormously britain terms

of keeping britain as a as an entity doesn't have many friends left in european circles no i mean i think the way the government's going his we're going to create a lesser united kingdom and one way or to other i mean we're being humiliated abroad and we're diminishing britain to brits in the country so it's a sad situation but if you look at western democracies if you look at the united states and you can see the rise of stuff that worries me in terms of economic hard men you could see islamophobia easier thora terrorism there's a great deal of that in the cunt conservative party at westminster you know by the ideologues who want to go so but for me an important issue will be. the european view development now we've seen what's happened in spain with the catalans was it happened in scotland. for a lot of them who are really i suppose fed up that's the word fed up with with the westminster government they may have to take

a different view of life because the european union itself will have to evolve and transform itself will repeated it doesn't look like that will as much for an option no but that's my worry because i constantly argue i constantly write and in books as well as articles that federalism is a what while and reasonable argument against the cunt mess at westminster and an independent but despite the fact that i've tried hard and hard out no one's listening there is still this problem at westminster that they believe that the kind of union it was struck the union of the united kingdom it still remains and people find it very hard in this is a situation where northern ireland could have a different geography political geography wales can scotland house and my fear is because that's never really changed that much people are sleepwalking at westminster closer to a potential break up of britain. and unless they stop themselves and do something about it then that will continue now that is

a crisis that's looming then because you spent. your academic career years in the united states lecturing mainly and some books also of the united states so you must be watching there the advent of trumpets in love with great interest. consummation us but well certainly alec i mean i i love america it's a wonderful wonderful country i spent two to three months teaching but this time when i came back and in april i really had a detox i mean i had so much of this person and one of the sad features is that people are still surprised that he's doing these things and if we stop being surprised the boat president trump then we could maybe start to concentrate on some of the things that he's actually doing which may be a bit more objective like what's happening in terms of nato what's happening in terms of he's meeting with president putin and what he's been saying about winding

up the you in terms of smashing the administrative state his views on people immigrants his views on mexicans there's a whole panoply of issues where people think that he is a politician he's a republican course he's not a republican he was a democrat of course he's not a democrat this is a person who i think is dangerous and what is dangerous about it the he's keeping company in studying up people like netanyahu. we're talking about the one in turkey we're talking about duarte in the philippines we're talking but communist presence of china and of russia and this is the economic hartman we're talking about so let's concentrate on what president trump is actually doing and be less surprised when he does something really crazy really silly and the quicker we get off of that we start to realize that this is a person who is a a magician in terms of communications he feeds his base daily and it's remaining

substantially loyal and i would also say to people who think he may only be there for another two years think again because american politics has a problem that the democrats are not scoring many winning runs to use a metaphor over there and there's a lack of leadership so that countries got major major problems and i see a lot of what's happening with trump in a curious way inside part of the conservative party and relation to this hard economic nationalism the ideology of free trade knocking the european union these are all qualities that trump was it's sad to think that people in the conservative party might have similar views and is every single thing that person does or serves for all know and this is the this is the curious thing about part of the magic because there's often an inkling an inkling of progressive thinking or sensible idea for example in terms of nato it makes sense to me that the members of nato

should contribute more to the common defense of the free world you know trump made the point rather than elegantly but nevertheless that was a point that hit home one of the thing one of the things trump has done he speaks plainly and that i think goes down well with a lot of people working people who just don't want the frills they want substance the people have been forgotten in america are the left behind here similar what with bret similar vote with trump but let's just ease off ridiculing. mind he's really cute himself enough the more important thing is what is his policies doing to america and how does the impact on the wider world and that includes europe include britain and mcleish the theme of lifting the scope of the looking forward to toasting either the world cup when independence and for world cups time. simon crean. we have in the show but here i don't need to tell you the truth before people you know want to question the quick and your many friends and i can finish

or by promising that scotland won't qualify for the world cup but i'll keep you guessing on what the other part of the questions answered thank you henry thank you henry mcleish is by no means alone and having his mind and future political options concentrated by impending. and scotland's future is only one of the proving conflicts but x. is no crystallizing that is border question remains unresolved and the good friday peace there looks more aggressive than at any time over the last two decades police amaze grip on a tenuous commons majority shaking of the checkers agreement only good logic only supported by tiny majorities as the least worst option the question is can she hold the support of the democratic unionist and the european to form good will to misstate talking enough towards the soft to satisfy a pro european rebels meanwhile the prime minister chances of getting a check of compromise passed the european commission twenty seven other member

states and the european parliament look even less promising than the maintenance of a tiny parliamentary majority more than two years after the bracks the referendum we have reached the place where the government briefing on stockpiling food and medicine is actually designed to reassure the population. public opinion for the first time says that i thought i and them seems to be shifting against a decisively against the prime minister's handling of. if a soft but access is on deliverable and the heart breaks unthinkable then the prospect of another referendum and the perhaps on top of the election becomes a very real likelihood but the m.p.'s broke up for recess last week the atmosphere was feeble as the temperatures soar the holidays make cool temples but the underlying issues will be back with a vengeance come the autumn. last year the prime minister went on a walking haul of the and planned a surprise election. just to walk into an agenda i might end up with and i'm planned election on for bret's it feels at least unwanted knew what i thought i'm

doing nothing is no self except at the british ship of state as to was attracted us and then definite sure so from this meet on myself and all of the crew. goodbye from. coming up in next week's show i had to bustling bustling up with us continuing deadlock in the political crisis between catalonia and spain i speak exclusively to the new president of catalonia i couldn't top of the can be a breakthrough with new spanish prime minister feticide interests.

but politicians do something to. put themselves on the line. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to present. something i want to be honest. it's going to be this is what the korean people are. interested always in the long. russia is one of the countries that most buy capacity and all the very high population does that mean russia does need to be concerned about sustainability i would say yes absolutely you are no lock a situation where you have a lot of farm per person so to say you know you have a lot of wealth ecological wealth and about the word is very scarce so that's a huge economic advantage as well and saying wow this is an amazing farm let's look after it well because that's said that made

a loss to live well the long run. this isn't the city of angeles when the u.s. military moved out the six tourists moved in. and now a whole generation of fatherless children is growing up pm i think that. the simpler than. i think the insurgent like you like. i know your. son. sat is it deters thanks to the t.v. crew seems you are in and takes you for in won't answer is known that now and that it's real or is this. that's it you know you want my god if.

they think. you can take the guillotine above that you can take a little girl and discuss if you know women you know. oh i love the feeling that you get if you. are. i i. feel.

this hour's headlines stories a u.s. government departments. trying to. foreign interference grow over the upcoming midterm elections. and in the program develops a game to teach. fake news but critics say it's simply a propaganda tool. refugees in jordan are being required to verify all metric data in order to gain access to a food journalist from the red fish group investigate the ethical concerns are the practice. fundamental principle. is informed consent. in the

company but i.