thomas was one of those. they gave his camera. room for the ones that showed some of the you for the. videos and so on with the broken string. down more on string i don't roughly don't t.v. . hello and welcome to cross talk for all things considered i'm peter lavelle the

transatlantic relationship is had many ups and downs since its inception after the second world war it is said this relationship is whether these moments of tensions and differences due to american leadership enter donald trump can the transatlantic relationship survive the current occupant in the white house. crosstalk in the transatlantic relationship i'm joined by my guest michael maloof in washington he is a former senior security policy analyst in the office of the secretary of defense in london we have more he is a professor of international politics at city university london and in oxford we crossed about common he is the director of the crisis research institute sorry gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate let me go to mark first in oxford on skype you know mark on. these last few programs i keep betraying. my age when i can remember

a good part of the history of the transatlantic relationship and they've been ups and downs they've been policy differences we can think of vietnam we can think of the illegal invasion and occupation of iraq during the reagan administration it was interim idiot missiles and they've pretty much been resolved those were problems i get the impression now that it's turning into divisions that about values and and what with the position of each in the world because the europeans after all these decades have pretty much tied themselves to the united states and have very limited options and they're not very happy about it is this a crisis of ideology and values now not just policy issues mark in oxford but i think it's a mixture of it's a crisis of early as well as a big difference disagreement about what is important and what should be principles between paris on one side and washington on the other shore so it's also about valuables in many ways the atlantic alliance from the late forty's on which was one

in which the united states was to create an economic price for security and geopolitical advantage and so the marshall plan which meant that the worst trade imbalances that were valued. they were going to work in economies and initially it expensive states but overall everybody benefited now trump is saying it has to be a cost benefit analysis on that basis and putting america first means america has to come out on top and of course his calls the serious problems to european industries or finance in general because something that the united states has sort of spent most of the works at all since their actions against iran do sanctions on russia and so on which have a big effect and they're also trying. to cuba it's a view of the world which the your people and quite simply look at media regards with horns court record so there's a problem unspoken even with the british are supposed to you know states they find themselves challenge to you know a plea and it's a challenge to some extent. except we're trying to call her tweeting about. going

to. it if i can stay with her stay with me the british isles here. the issue the very top of this we have the iran deal with the u.s. withdrew from but it seems to me that that is an archetype of the problems of the transatlantic relationship right now because the europeans are are being told that they have to pay an economic price when they're staying in the deal in iran it wants to stay in the deal to i mean it seems you know a bit large on the part of the united states saying well since we don't want to be part of it you shouldn't be part of it and this gets down to really kind of sovereignty at least e.u. sovereignty i'd like to talk a little bit about energy as well but i mean the europeans are being asked to go against their best interests and almost every single way and this is causing a great deal of tension go ahead in london. i think you know you've summarized the position in some respects but i do not think that is

a kind of fundamental breach i think the europeans are clearly unhappy the one major diplomatic success if you like they can claim was the iran nuclear agreement and they're very upset at the united states withdrawal from it but on the other hand their ideas about iran and iran's regional power and it politico missile testing they don't differ very much so i think they they would appear to be big tactical difference here. and so i would have what i would argue is that at the core of transatlantic relations from the very beginning i don't think there was ever any altruism involved there was always a position of power and a negotiation about power and power distribution so i think what the situation is now is that it's changed and to some extent there's a reason to go she ation of those relationships and i don't think it's only the united states which is acting much more towards is. particular national interest

european powers among themselves have always had tension between the european element and their national interest so i think this is just being exacerbated at this particular time and clearly don't trump played a particular game but i think in the end the levels of interdependence between the european union europe and the united states remain very very high and i think there is a bit of upset here but i don't think there's a fundamental breach well we'll see how the tensions which are a little groan are let me go to michael in washington i mean interdependency i think there's a lot more dependency than interdependency and that's what we're seeing right now and i guess fundamentally can we have a transatlantic alliance coalition as it were carry co-exist with america first and donald trump michel. well it's be it's beginning to erode what we're seeing is an erosion and perhaps a replacement of the u.s. led unilateral world order and i think that the breaking out of leaving the the

iranian deal the j.c. p.-o. way was a watershed moment for countries that in a year asia and especially iran as well as in western europe and what we're seeing emerge now is a new geo political shift to a much more multi-polar approach and we're already seeing this just like what you probably saw in st petersburg with with the belt road initiative combined with the yes the shanghai cooperation organization and the year asia european union all beginning to come together with its membership forming this separate economic world order bloc that that's actually going to counter and respond to what donald trump has now done i think europe europe as well because of the sanctions are going to read are going to rebel to out as as much as they can and we're going to see that

they're going to want to maintain that trade with with with iran as well as with the other countries in that and that region of the world the whole idea because the united states insists upon having the israeli policy interfere with every foreign policy decision that makes it's actually going to it's actually beginning to shift away from that and we're seeing that already you know you know market the it seems that you know there's a perception i've heard this many times is the united states is treating its its friends worse than its enemies i mean it's centrally going down the track of threatening to sanction european countries and their companies and this is getting i you know i think it's the first time in the in the transatlantic alliance experience where you know the sovereignties really seems to be in and is being infringed upon i mean. threatening companies that you know it be your financial transactions you know it's forcing companies to start trading in other currencies so the the the us treasury department can't go after you i mean is that what

you need tell allies are supposed to be worried about from the united states now i mean this is a new dilemma but this coalition this the lion says a facing go ahead mark. i do remember when it was a snapshot of for now with all of the u.s. attempt to prevent the export of that in soviet cast western europe you have a very british companies taking part in that and so the president's the point is that in those cases quite quickly the common interests and who rode the divisions like found a way around it whereas today we face the prospect of dog from could these are good wasn't in office who were going to this time he could be remembered it and he continues with these policies he's really challenging the your opinion sense of self esteem in the one area where they feel like a great power yes the e.u. is a ship political pygmies that military picked me but he is a trading superpower. afterwards for small the united states imports from us

a lot of exports so germany and china for instance and also countries like japan have an economic common interest in the why the world which trump is trying to unsettle because he was he wants to cut back dramatically the u.s. trade deficit that actually means. to the extent of his key partners as well as a potential to have little rock or china so we really have structural changes taking place maybe all these decades of cooperation all the cultural contrasts between west and the united states in the broader west will somehow. mitigate this but i have a feeling that in the end it will be dollars and cents that yeah you know internet let me go back to you in london i mean the right before the trumpet you from the iran deal we had boris johnson visiting we had it many emmanuelle. visiting trump as well and i think that they were expecting some kind of negotiation like the allies and friends are supposed to do and they they returned home empty handed in

the meantime angela merkel has visited putin twice and gone to china she didn't even go to washington there is a perception at least on this side of the pond is that the united states isn't interested in negotiations it's more interested in dicta do it or else go ahead in london while actually merkel did go to washington d.c. and what we are taught from them for withdraw years along with the crime for example just after mccrone i was given a slightly different kind of treatment i think this is a really it is a very complicated question and i think to some extent there's a there's a kind of broad long term shift going on in the kind of global geopolitics and geo economics and i think then there are these kind of tactical transactional isms which trump is championing and i think to some extent trump is being criticized but i in the end he's standing up for what he believes he's the american and he's seeing any he's keeping his promises let's keep that in mind that we should be

surprising ok he said this on the campaign trail keep going keep going yes and i think what i would say about that to you is is that i think a large part of this is really a sort of tactical power play as much dicked directed at home it is a political base to try to show them that he is standing up for the united states the key thing that he had promised to really that america first was going to do for them was to basically give them back economic and other home and i don't think actually any of this is going to help that core base at all so in the end effectively it's a big theater and i think the levels of the amounts of money we're talking about here in god to the kind of sanctions on on trade or trade tariffs or whatever is relatively small. it could lead to more but i think ok and i did see things small not trade wars usually start small here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the

transatlantic relationship say with art. but it was supposed to some of us it was a. little so you know it just before. last time we chased. each one a little carrying twenty kilos of drugs. pushed the fence down. earlier that they just kept going. into the very we i mean the monocle men then they have

this is. this is for me. it's going to be up well i don't see it or you know maybe they'll get a make or. break. around one. hurdled never great was founded on the rapes and murders. nothing changed so we

said all response to these situations that we're dealing with. people here is sad every day she is just sad people kill each other blood for killing children. there was just no way that people are going to just sit back and allow children to be shot down law enforcement. this country doesn't work for us it doesn't function for us. this this can't be happening in america we call from the streets we've got to deal with why this is the reason i have to ride like this is the reason. welcome back to cross like we're all things considered i'm peter we're discussing

the transatlantic relationship. we're going to go back to michael in washington one of the interesting questions that have arisen that is has been given as is and give much coverage is the energy politics and energy security that includes the the u.k. the rest of europe the united states and interestingly and importantly russia here and germany is very much in the center of it with the north stream pipeline the second one that's going to be being built and the americans are pretty perfuse slee against this pipeline because they want to import or export to europe very expensive ellen g. and the germans are resist resisting it and they could face sanctions as we talk announcements could be made this is a very important issue because germany and the european union are actually defacto being denied the ability to determine their energy security it's the u.s. wants to dictate that go ahead michael. well it has to do with russian dominance of

it and that's the problem and the u.s. as you point out is a johnny come lately to this new in wanting to ship l.n.g. or liquefied natural gas but the problem for the united states is it only has one port in louisiana that can export and secondly most of the european countries except those along the coast have any elegy capabilities the countries that really really need this kind of gas there are much much more internally and and certainly germany as well but the pipeline structures that exists right now and are being built. up with russian dominance if you will is what irritated in the near cons here in washington and certainly the trumpet ministration so it's a johnny come lately effort and i i don't think it's going to succeed and they need natural gas and. well because when it is not all that far away and that they have to have a reliable source and you're going to you're going to see more and more of these countries integrating themselves apart from the united states because of this

activity and energy is just one aspect of that whole geo political shift that we're that we're seeing emerge at this point you know let me go back to oxford market again if it gets down to being able to make sovereign decisions i mean i mean i don't think you have to be very ideological or very partisan dick the question well why should a country that's on the other side of the planet determine your energy policy when you have a neighbor that wants to provide energy at a reasonable price and your companies are involved in a joint venture to build that pipeline i mean i don't see how threatening that possibly could be except you want the market you want the market share i get that i get that that's fine ok but it should be the europeans that ultimately make that decision mark in oxford where i was exhausted also the united states would like to we can rush. position by weakening the state revenue by cutting its own schools or energy but as the austrian president from development said the great problem is

that ellen g. is only a moment when energy prices are high but actually because you negotiate a long term contracts with russia to receive you get the gas well below the price which is why it will so you have this it is a one time but it's almost impossible to have a two contradiction in order to make up what you have to create a high revenue stream to russia which makes for a stronger signal for you who has but if you try to reach if you will so i buy provisions for that round the room do you push your prices or should the position of the countries that you are well start to suspicious of stronger and also make their boutique. to customs. more attractive so it actually is not a very quick of course it's. not going. to. ok energy let me go back to change gears and i talk a little bit about nate. so you know ever since the end of the the advent of the cold war in the warsaw pact we've had nato when the soviet union came to an end

nato decided to stick around and look for a new mission for itself unfortunately in two thousand and eighteen i guess that mission is to defend against russia but the european countries don't really want to pay for their defense they kind of like having the us pick up the tab term trump says you got to pay more and they still don't do it so it's kind of hard to convince the public that russia is such a threat we don't want to pay for your own defense except for poland wants to spend two billion dollars they have american troops there well why don't they just give the two billion dollars to the germans and the germans can do it form ok i mean there's a lot of possibilities there ok again countries that want want to have secure borders particularly visa vi russia they don't want to pay for it so what how do you square the circle there go ahead in london. well i think in germany actually there are quite strong pressures from various sides of the political spectrum to to

strengthen german military power and also his kind of much more independence stance on a number of global questions so i don't think there is an unwillingness on the part of many of the european powers with nato to increase military spending to two percent which is what they're actually committed to undergoing there all of that there's a lot of research there's a lot of resistance to pick it to reach that two percent of g.d.p. i mean they've been talking about it for years and they're still not doing it ok what only four countries out of the out of the entire block actually do that ok i mean they still resist doing it so that there isn't that water with me now they want something for free and then if they don't get it for free they don't want to pay for it that's michael you but you worked at the defense department. you know well i see that. the first this is more on economic betterment between europe and and russia because that is a they have a major dependency there but the whole military concept is basically evaporated in

favor of more economic opportunities such as in dealing with iran dealing with china dealing with with with russia i mean it's expanding and and nato as you pointed out is still an entity trying to find a new mission and they went to afghanistan for a little while they're still there but you know it's still it's it's on life support frankly and the europeans for for itself is looking internally to have its own defense mechanism and the french are pushing there pretty much and i think the germans because of what trump has been doing it and the way has been bludgeoned in them i think they're they're beginning to reexamine that concept but they don't see the threat that that the neo cons and trying to do from from russia from china or from or from iran as trump does ok let me go back to you in london because he

didn't get to really finish your point there i mean take do you think that there is the political will the european union for all of its problems is one of the richest places on the planet i mean it's not like it doesn't have resources has plenty of resources unfortunately a lot of them are wasted but they're still relatively rich why shouldn't they did you know. step up and it really stiff their complaining about the united states and trump why don't they just go with a loan that it's not as if they don't have the resources to do it go ahead. but i think going it alone is probably right on viable for any major power or block today that interdependence which is built up he's very very dense the networks which are financial economic political security intelligence as well as people to people ideas in every respect you look at the interdependencies. of of major global pillars they are very very great they're not going anywhere you can try to shake them up you can rearrange them

a little bit you can renegotiate relations and i think that's what it is trying to do and some other powers are trying to do as well but i don't think you're going to get rid of the i don't think europe wants to or can go alone britain is finding itself look at the position we're in now negotiating a briggs's deal look how difficult it is to try to do anything meaningful with that because in the end you cannot just divorce yourself from a global economy and so on what you can do is try to create a sort of national conditions under which you can control the effects of globalism and i think that is what is effectively happening on a worldwide scale because the people of the countries within like the united states and elsewhere as well they're suffering from the effects of inequality they're suffering from the fact there's unemployment because of technological change and innovation and i think people like donald trump are effectively misleading their own electorates by calling for america first and i don't think they're going to

solve any of those problems but in the end that is where the pressure is really coming from and i think that is not going to go away and that is going to lead to a degree of national level of control so i think there's going to be a renegotiation of the guard a global world market ok which allows for me to morrow meeting all of you so it's pretty personal mystical what you just said big it sounds like all these organisations are straight jackets you're in it and you can get out and there's one man that will determine the rules i mean that to say essentially what you're saying mark i mean i think that there is a political will in division i think that there could be much more. polarity i think there could be a lot more equality in it but i don't see the political will the europeans can moan and groan all they want but they're apparently happy with the situation the way it is and trump is in the us is going to be sniped at them and they won't be able to do much about. it go ahead mark what you also lose a problem when we talk about the we're going to do we mean there is the network the leaps of people shareholder and government and so on who are going to come with the

old order and in a sense their trunk shaking it up but also they can't imagine leaving it but then we've seen whether it's the the internet in election even the also from elections and so on huge popular and rest including in germany with also spoke with the downsides of globalization. united states. i think there is a crisis of the west and in a way it's something which the elites in the major don't really notice struck me that nature has just held its first meeting in its new purpose built courtrooms and the only more of sociology that i respect is social buckets and more than any organization that moves into a brand new waters will go bust within a few months and one fears that we have this kind of institutional inertia that i can't really imagine of the architecture of the previous decades is seeing its foundation sent away by the very popular consent which after all was the basis of the democratic. ok my goal in watching the last forty seconds of the program goes

to you go ahead. you know i think what we saw what fundamentally what we're seeing is that the erosion of that unilateral world order and it's big and it's beginning to catch up to riyadh reality is beginning to catch up to the europeans just like with three some may she's doing brecht's it of course that she look to the u.s. as an alternative market but because of sanctions now she's going to be looking more and more toward china and i think you're going to see that wave increasing in the coming years simply because we have this new multi-polar emerging that that is kind of just isolate in effect isolate the u.s. unless it stops its. bad in people over the head all the time well we'll see we'll see if america first can co-exist with. the transatlantic alliance that has existed since the second world war seems pretty incompatible to me but we'll see that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks so much to my guests in washington london

and in oxford and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you then.

this is. a church secret indeed priests accused of sexually abusing children can get away with it quite literally i like to call this the geographic solution. what the bishop needs to do then he finds out the priest says there's a purpose for it is simply moves him to a different spot were the previous standards not the highest ranks of the catholic church help conceal the accused priests from the police and justice system to that is no that's not going to as the end then i think you'll hear that it used. to spend three.

months down. there. pasco says if you further tightening of u.s. sanctions on russia as the start of an economic war washington says it's stepping up the restrictions over the poisoning of a former russian double agent with his daughter in the u.k. back in march. the us democratic party wants facebook to share data on members who've fallen for fake news so it can tell them what's right this is social media giants for accuse the censureship after banning controversial show host joe.