hello and welcome to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle the transatlantic relationship has had many ups and downs since its inception after the second world war it is said this relationship is whether these moments of tensions and differences due to american leadership enter donald trump can the transatlantic relationship survive the current occupant in the white house. on stocking the transatlantic relationship i'm joined by my guest michael maloof in washington he is a former senior security policy analyst in the office of the secretary of defense

in london we have been more he is a professor of international politics at city university london and in oxford we crossed about common he is the director of the crisis research institute sorry gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate let me go to mark first in oxford on skype you know mark and. these last two programs i keep betraying my age when i can remember a good part of the history of the transatlantic relationship and they've been ups and downs they've been policy differences we can think of vietnam we can think of the illegal invasion and occupation of iraq during the reagan administration it was . the missiles and they've pretty much been resolved those were problems i get the impression now that it's turning into divisions that about values and and what the position of each in the world because the europeans after all these decades have pretty much tied themselves to the united states and have very. limited options and

the not very happy about it is this a crisis of ideology and values now not just policy issues mark in oxford but i think it's a mixture of that it's a crisis of early as well as a big difference disagreement about what is important to watch should be principles between paris on one side and washington on the other shore so it's also about valuables in many ways the atlantic alliance from the late forty's on which was one in which the united states was the two main economic price for security and geopolitical advantage and so the marshall plan which meant that there were certain trade imbalances that were valued. they were going west european economies and initiate expensive and states but overall everybody benefited now trump is saying it has to be a cost benefit analysis on that basis and putting america first means america has to come out on top and of course his calls the serious problems to european industries european finance in general because something that the united states is sort of spent most of the works at all since their actions against iran do

sanctions on russia and so on which have a big effect and they're also trying. to kill a it's a view of the world which the or people who are simply repeating media regards with horns court record so there's a problem and there was a problem even with the british are supposed to you know states they find themselves challenge to economically and also challenge to some extent on what is probably perceptible here tropicals couldn't help on tweeting about things in britain that have gone against the grain of british public opinion you know jake if i can stay with stay with me the british isles here. it is actually at the very top of this we have the iran deal with the u.s. withdrew from but it seems to me that that is an archetype of the problems of the transatlantic relationship right now because the europeans are that are being told that they have to pay an economic price when they're staying in the deal in iran it wants to stay in the deal to i mean it seems you know a bit large on the part of the united states saying well since we don't want to be part of it you shouldn't be part of it. and this gets down to really kind of

sovereignty at least e.u. sovereignty i'd like to talk a little bit about energy as well but i mean the europeans are being asked to go against their best interests in almost every single way and this is causing a great deal of tension go ahead of london. i think you know you've summarized the position in some respects but i do not think that is a kind of fundamental breach i think the europeans are clearly unhappy the one major diplomatic success if you like they can claim was the iran nuclear agreement and they're very upset at the united states withdrawal from it but on the other hand their ideas about iran and iran's regional power and it ballistic missile testing they don't differ very much so i think they they would appear to be big tactical difference here. and so i would have what i would argue is that that the at the core of transatlantic relations from the very beginning i don't think there was ever any altruism involved there was always

a position of power i don't negotiation about power and power distribution so i think what the situation is now is that it's changed and to some extent there's a reason to go she ation of those relationships and i don't think it's only the united states which is acting much more towards is particular national interest european powers among themselves have always a tension between the european element and their national interest so i think this is just being exacerbated at this particular time and clearly don't trump played a particular game but i think in the end the levels of interdependence between the european union europe and the united states remain very very high and i think there is a bit of upset here but i don't think there's a fundamental breach well we'll see it there might be tensions which are a little groan. let me go to michael in washington i mean interdependency i think there's a lot more dependency than interdependency and that sort. we're seeing right now

and i guess fundamentally can we have a transatlantic alliance coalition as it were can it co-exist with america first and donald trump michael. well it's be it's beginning to erode what we're seeing is an erosion and perhaps a replacement of the u.s. led unilateral world order and i think that the the breaking out of leaving the the iranian deal the j.c. peel away was a watershed moment for countries that in a year asia and especially iran as well as in western europe and what we're seeing emerge now is a new geo political shift to a much more multi-polar approach and we're already seeing this just like what you probably saw in st petersburg with with the belt road initiative combined with the yes the shanghai cooperation organization and the year asia european union all

beginning to come together with its membership forming this separate economic world order bloc that that's actually going to counter and respond to what donald trump has now done i think europe europe as well because of the sanctions are going to read are going to rebel to out as as much as they can and we're going to see that they're going to want to maintain that trade with with with iran as well as with the other countries in that and that region of the world the whole idea because the united states insists upon having the israeli policy interfere with every foreign policy decision it makes it's actually going to it's actually beginning to shift away from that and we're seeing that already you know you know market the it seems that you know there's a perception i've heard this many times is the united states is treating its its friends worse than its enemies i mean it's centrally going down the track of threatening to sanction european cunt. there are companies and this is getting i

you know i think it's the first time in the in the transatlantic alliance experience where you know sovereignty is really seems to be in and is being infringed upon i mean threatening companies that you know we there are financial transactions you know it's forcing companies to start trading in other currencies so the the the us treasury department can't go after you i mean is that what you need tell allies are supposed to be worried about from the united states now i mean this is a new dilemma that this coalition this the lion says a facing go ahead mark well. i do remember when it was a snapshot of for now with all of the u.s. attempt to prevent the export of those in soviet cast western europe you have a very british companies taking part in that and so the precedents the point is that in those cases quite quickly the common interest and who rode the divisions like found a way around it whereas today we face the prospect of dog from could easily get

wasn't in office for the we're going to this time he could be remembered it and he continues with these policies he's really challenging the your opinion sense of self esteem in the one area where they feel like a great power yes the e.u. is a geopolitical pygmy is that military but it is a trading superpower germany afterwards for small the united states the us a lot of its forms of german in china for instance and so that countries like japan have an economic common interest in the why that world which trump is trying to answer because he knows he wants to cut back dramatically the u.s. trade deficit that actually means. to the extent of his key partners as well as a potential geopolitical rival like china so we really have structural changes taking place maybe all these decades of cooperation all the cultural contrasts between west and the united states in the broader west will somehow. mitigate this but i have a feeling that in the end it will be the. yeah you know we go back to you in london

i mean the right before trump withdrew from the iran deal we had boris johnson visit we had it many emmanuelle mccrum visiting with trump as well and i think that they were expecting some kind of negotiation like the allies and friends are supposed to do and they they returned home empty handed in the meantime angela merkel has visited putin twice and gone to china she didn't even go to washington there is a perception at least on this side of the pond is that the united states isn't interested in negotiations it's more interested in dicta do it or else go ahead in london well actually merkel did go to washington d.c. and well before them for withdrawal yes along with for example just after mccrone i was given a slightly different kind of treatment i think is a really this very complicated question and i think to some extent there's a there's a kind of broad long term shift going on in the kind of global geopolitics and geo

economics and i think then there are these kind of tactical transactional isms which trump is championing and i think to some extent trump is being criticized but i in the end he's standing up for what he believes he's the american and he's seeing any he's keeping his promises let's keep that in mind but it shouldn't be surprising ok he said this on the campaign trail keep going going keep. yes and i think what i would say about that to you is is that i think a large part of this is really a sort of tactical power play and it's as much dictator directed at home it is a political base to try to show them that he is standing up for the united states the key thing that he had promised to really that america first was going to do for them was to basically give them back economic and other hope and i don't think actually any of this is going to help that core base at all so in the end

effectively it's a big theater and i think the levels of the amounts of money we're talking about here and got to the kind of sanctions on on trade or trade tariffs or whatever is relatively small it could lead to more but i think you're going to interfere in small amounts of trade wars usually start small here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the transatlantic relationship today with art.

we have no idea what so if he's doing on vacation but she will be back on air in september. first. of all those. two additional total so document on the first thanks. steve i'm going to tell you. how the receipt. eat. it to most digital. groups some some of the sheen you know. was not. a new look to. me that's. the beatles but it's somebody. with a very. fortunately no. bruising just in her womb i mean for her.

to thomas was you might want to smile at. her believe never grace was founded on the rape in the murder. nothing changed so we said in. response to these situations that we do in the ways. people get shot every day she is just people kill each other but truthfully children. still is just no way that people are going to just sit back and allow children to be shot down law enforcement. this country

doesn't work for us it doesn't function for us. this is can't be happening in america we call from the streets we've got to deal with why this is the reason i have to read like this is the reason. welcome back to cross talk were all things considered we're discussing the transatlantic relationship. we're going to go back to michael in washington one of the interesting questions that have arisen that is it has been given is isn't it much coverage is the energy politics and energy security that includes the the u.k. the rest of europe the united states and interestingly and importantly russia here and germany is very much in the center of it with the north stream pipeline the

second one that's going to be being built and the americans are perfuse slee against this pipeline because they want to import or export to europe very expensive ellen g. and the germans are resisting it and they could face sanctions as we talk announcements could be made this is a very important issue because germany and the european union are actually defacto being denied the ability to determine their energy security it's the u.s. wants to dictate that go ahead michael. well it has to do with russian dominance of it and that's the problem and the u.s. as you point out is a johnny come lately to this the in wanting to ship l.n.g. or liquefied natural gas but the problem for the united states is it only has one port in louisiana that can export and secondly most of the european countries except those along the coast have any elegy capabilities the countries that really really need this kind of gas there are much much more internally and and certainly

germany as well but the pipeline structures that exist right now are being built. up with russian dominance if you will is what irritated the near cons here in washington and certainly the trumpet ministration so it's a johnny come lately effort and i i don't think it's going to succeed and they need natural gas now because when it is not all that far away and they they have to have a reliable source and you're going to you're going to see more and more of these countries integrating themselves apart from the united states because of this activity and energy is just one aspect of that whole geo political shift that we're that we're seeing emerge at this point you know let me go back to oxford mark again if it gets down to being able to make sovereign decisions i mean i mean i don't think you have to be very ideological or very partisan to the question well why should a country that's on the other side of the planet determine your energy policy when you have a neighbor that wants to provide energy at

a reasonable price and your companies are involved in a joint venture to build that pipeline i mean i don't see how threatening that possibly could be except for you want the market you want the market share i get that i get that that's fine ok but it should be the europeans that ultimately make that decision mark in oxford we're. going to also the united states would like to. decision but we can continue to schools energy but as the austrian president from the villains said great. is that ellen g.'s only a moment and the prices are high but actually because you negotiate a long term contract with russia to receive gas you get the gas well below the price which is why also you have this water but it's almost impossible to have it to contradiction in order to make what you have to create a high revenue stream which makes for a stronger signal for you to burst but if you try to which you also have relations with that run poorly run do you push your prices or should the position of the

countries that you are well start to suspicious of strong and also you make their boutique. to customs. more attractive so it actually is not a very clear since you do not get. to. get in or tell me go back to change gears and i talk a little bit about nato you know ever since the end of the in the advent of the cold war in the warsaw pact we've had nato when the soviet union came to an end nato decided to stick around and look for a new mission for itself unfortunately in two thousand and eighteen i guess that mission is to vent to defend against russia but the european countries don't really want to pay for their defense they kind of like having the u.s. pick up the tab trump says you got to pay more and they still don't do it so it's kind of hard to convince the public that russia is such a threat we don't want to pay for your own defense except for poland wants to spend two billion dollars they have american troops there well why don't they just give

the two billion dollars to the germans and the germans can do it form ok i mean there's a lot of possibilities there ok again countries that want want to have secure borders particularly visa vi russia they don't want to pay for it so what how do you square the circle there go ahead in london. well i think in germany actually there are quite strong pressures from various sides of the political spectrum to to strengthen german military power. and also he's kind of much more independence stance on a number of global questions so i don't think there is an unwillingness on the part of many of the european powers with nato to increase military spending to two percent which is what they're actually committed to under the you know the he's already there there's a lot of reason there's a lot of resistance to it to reach that two percent of g.d.p. i mean they've been talking about it for years and they're still not doing it ok

what only four countries out of the out of the entire block actually do that ok i mean they still resist doing it so that doesn't count water with me no they want something for free and then if they don't get it for free they don't want to pay for it that's not michael you but you worked at the defense department. you know well i see that the first this is more on economic betterment between europe and and russia because that is a they have a major dependency there but the whole military concept is basically evaporated in favor of more economic opportunities such as in dealing with iran dealing with china dealing with with with russia i mean it's expanding and and nato as you pointed out is still an entity trying to find a new mission and they went to afghanistan for a little while they're still there but you know it's still it's it's on life support frankly and the europeans for for itself is looking internally to have its

own defense mechanism and the french are pushing there pretty much and and i think the germans because of what trump has been doing it and the way it's been bludgeoned in them i think they're they're beginning to reexamine their concept but they don't see the threat that that the neo cons and trying to do from from russia from china or from or from iran as truck does ok let me go back to you in london because he didn't get to really finish your point there i mean. take do you think that there is the political world the european union for all of its problems is one of the richest places on the planet i mean it's not like it doesn't have resources has plenty of resources unfortunately a lot of them are wasted but they're still relatively rich why should they did you know. step up in it really see if they're complaining about the united states and trump why don't they just go it alone that it's not as if they don't have the the resources to do it go ahead. but i think going alone is probably right and viable

for any major power or bloc today that interdependence which is built up is very very dense the networks which are financial economic political security intelligence as well as people to people ideas in every respect you look at the interdependencies of of major global pillars they are very very great they're not going anywhere you can try to shake them up you can rearrange them a little bit you can renegotiate relations and i think that's what it is trying to do and some other powers are trying to do as well but i don't think you're going to get rid of the i don't think europe wants to or can go alone britain is finding itself look at the position we're in now because she ating a briggs's deal look how difficult it is to try to do anything meaningful with that because in the end you cannot just divorce yourself from a global economy and so on what you can do is try to create a sort of national conditions under which you can control the effects of globalism

and i think that is what is effectively happening on a worldwide scale because the people of the countries within like the united states and elsewhere as well they're suffering from the effects of inequality they're suffering from the fact there's unemployment because of technological change and innovation and i think people like donald trump are effectively misleading their own electorates by calling for america first and i don't think they're going to solve any of those problems but in the end that is where the per. sure it's really coming from and i think that is not going to go away and that is going to lead to a degree of national level of control so i think there's going to be a renegotiation of the kind of global market ok let me to allows for i mean you know martin i mean all you say it's pretty pessimistic so what you just said big it sounds like all these organizations are a straight jacket you're in it and you can't get out and there's one hedge of man that will determine the rules i mean that to say it is actually what you're saying

mark i mean i think that there is a political will and division i think that there could be much more. polarity i think there could be a lot more equality in it but i don't see the political will the europeans can moan and groan all they want but they're fat and happy with the situation the way it is and trump is going the u.s. is going to be but snipe at them and they won't be able to do much about it go ahead mark what you also lose a problem when we talk about your parents who do we mean there is the networked elites of people shareholder and government and so on who were very comfortable with the old order and in a sense they're trying tricking it out but also they can't imagine leaving it but then we've seen whether it's the brute's how intellectually even the also from elections on huge popular rest including in germany with all sorts of aspects we look down so it's a globalization trump after all right and so you know it's just. i think there is a crisis of the west and in a way it's something which the elites in the motor don't really notice struck me

that nato has just held its first meeting in its new purpose built courtrooms and the only board of sociology that i respect to such a parkinson's law that any organization that moves in to bring you purposely waters will go bust within eighteen months. and one fears that we have this kind of institutional inertia that we can't really imagine and the architect of the previous. is seeing its foundations by the very popular consent which after all was the basis of the democratic. ok my goal in watching the last forty. seconds of the program goes to you go ahead. you know i think what we're so fundamentally what we're seeing is that the erosion of that unilateral world order and it's big and it's beginning to catch up to riyadh reality is beginning to catch up to the europeans just like with theresa may she she's doing brecht's it of course that she look to the u.s. as an alternative market but because of sanctions now she's going to be looking more and more toward china and i think you're going to see that wave increasing in

the coming years simply because we have this new multi-polar emerging that is kind of just isolate in effect isolate the u.s. unless it stops its. bad people over the head all the time well we'll see we'll see if america first can co-exist with a transatlantic alliance that has existed since the second world war seems pretty incompatible to me but we'll see that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks so much to my guests in washington london and in oxford and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. a next time and remember crosstalk.

i. voted with up of both. of us. last time we chased. each one a little carrying twenty kilos of drugs. first offense. that. is very well i mean. this is for me.

it would be a. make or. break. part. around one. this is my love hate relationship with the united kingdom. and you love it because it's shambolic and fraudulent. and i buy the cow to hate it because thousands tens of thousands of people have no lives destroyed by our b.s. . we have no idea what so if he's doing on vacation but she will be back on air in

september. the french opposition leader reacts furiously to finding his name on a list of suspicious twitter accounts forcing him to declare he is not a russian. netherlands reels from let me shock suicide of an anti immigration party politician who claimed she was raped by a muslim gang last year also ahead. two palestinians are killed and more than two hundred injured in the latest flare up on the israel gaza border soldiers opened fire after rioters. hurled explosives and broke through the fence.