shafran if you came to scotland to see who i'm not sure or maybe get someone you're sure alex or maybe well sister says these dialogues are fit for the saw a fantastic henry i would be drawing the christian salmon to chew over you keep politics past and present thank you susan and finally from bro and i he says henry mcleish for discussion with alex salmond on the show tonight and professor shabby sally martin is one of the top economists in the world and is coming a professor at columbia university in new york city he's also taught at yale harvard and the university pump of fact in barcelona and the barcelona graduate school of economics he was president of f.c. barcelona during the electoral process of two thousand and six and remains a board member a columnist for spanish newspaper la vanguard he also has a weekly slot on our e.c. one i contribute regularly to c.n.n. alex speaks to him and by phone or. one of the top international columnists of the group for development put drove you to that field of economics that when i saw

poverty for the first time i actually went to i was here in barcelona my undergraduate studies i went to harvard to study with my school a prominent who's a prominent most important mathematical economist in the world and i travel to believe you're in for the first time i saw poverty and i couldn't i couldn't believe it real poverty at the time believe it was the poorest country in latin america and i was so devastated that i turned back and i said economics has to be about solving these problems i know mathematical economies is fun it was like. solving crossword puzzles for me was like a. good brain teasers. but economics has to be more than that the independence for cattle so the very strong economic dimension. of the economics of of cattle independence economic the. mention has been

diminishing over time initially it was all about economics about how much money you know cattle in spain taxes and money that doesn't come back in the form in in the form of investment or some other way how spain does not really represent not only because spain doesn't do the right economics you know the right economic policies for us but you know spain it's been a disappointment it's like it's like i think of the independent as a broken marriage. you know there is an economic argument. mean leads about you know feeling right i don't love you anymore and yes i promised when we got married they would be forever yes we voted the constitution or our parents for the constitution of spain in the argument years you know seen catalunya voted for the constitution hence you have to state no no yes i love you yes they promised yes

they sed where it would be forever but now it's over when your field of economics where you go to so much notice of growth economic so you would turn to thinking about the economic terms be pursuing more happens or will period of time than just the. calculations one point in time not surely much more important so what happened to cattle an economy over the period of time for examples of the poor and there's no. guarantee that our politicians whenever we have in the pendant countries or politicians will choose the right policies we are roughly the size of switzerland. sweden or a little bit larger than finland. now eve we choose policies we'll end up like switzerland not one of the richest countries in the world one of the most competitive most productive if we follow the east policies then we will end up like portugal now there's no guarantee. that we will choose correctly but we will make

our own choices the spanish you know they have a preference for you know sending every single infrastructure through madrid where there is a roll or highways or trains or high speed trains even even planes you know everything has to go through many and that's legitimate the can have those preferences now those are not our preferences that's not what's good for our economy that's not that's not good would for us it isn't twenty five percent of exports come from catalonia we have only sixteen percent of the population so we are interested in having infrastructures you know looking to europe looking north not not looking and that's due to madrid so even if over a period of time different economic choices lead to more growth for a better result from catalonia would be inevitable period of dislocation i mean even i'm agreed a process of independence like the czech republic and slovakia the velvet divorce

yes involves some little creation there's not much. velvet divorce between spain and catalunya salute must inevitably you'd have to factor in a period of some economic difficulty seems i'm a i'm a girl's economist they tend to look at the long run ok i have no doubt that in the long run we would be way better off it is catalunya would be better off and that would be as part of spain it as an independent only for the reasons i mentioned i'm not talking about the money in the most most people in catalonia worry about the fiscal deficit the amount of money that the cattle and stay in taxes than never can blackmon i'm not talking about that. being able to choose the right policy is the rate of regulations the right investment through people seriously would argue that an economy the size of catalonia couldn't be a perfectly viable country indeed many economists would argue it's the perfect size and all the gold in size between. five hundred fifty million dollars of evidence

for that but is there really an argument that it would be worth the candle the the improvement the economic improvement would be such that it would justify the all the bother of setting up an independent state the size argument is completely silly i mean the size argument is when i worked for the world economic forum you know the competitiveness index in there was a global competitiveness jointly devised. exactly how i'm the person who would derive that index for the forum ok and i still run i still help them run this program nobody in their right mind can tell me that smaller countries perform worse than larger countries during the twentieth century the forces that would help you if you are a large country are disappearing. right markets are no longer countries market is

the world or group of countries the european union or nafta. environmental problems spain cannot claim the change we have to have groups of countries the united nations terrorism right so the benefits of belonging to a large country are disappearing given that you cited switzerland as a model for best policy practice. after which is obvious which as a member of would be a better place for catalonia to be if it doesn't have the best benefit which is making decisions because you accept whatever their your other members of the rules that all the members decide but you still have access to the market you still have access to a world without borders you have some some of the benefits you still have to pay and used but you still have to accept the rules the problem is that the rules you don't decide. the rule of academics in the in the constitutional debate in

catalonia i mean you were part of an academic grouping what was the role of economists and political scientists and and other academics what did they contribute substantially to the b. to the ongoing debate we created a group of economists call that wilson group. that was mainly. for my school age students. or students of students but it was not a group throwing the pendants he was a group. because that because some of the economies in that group are not growing dependence they don't support the bends but he was a group of pro-choice about the right to the say those opposed to what the decision might be exactly. it's about this good decisions can only be made either citizens are well informed. of the fact on the overall debate due to a man. to slay some of the canard and raise the tone of the debate i think that the

debate has been decreasing lee about economics after a quarter first thing many people saw through spain for the for in a for the first time. stain has been very good disguising you know pretending to be a democratic country since one thousand nine hundred five since franco died but the true nature of spain appear that day and we have seen it ever since. sending politicians who have done nothing to prison for nine months now. you know be completely completely incomprehensible behavior and in the european judges are obviously you know showing that this is the case there is no good legal reason to keep these people in jail unusual academic in many ways i mean you were president of. the barcelona was. i was i was president by accident

f.c. barcelona is like a little democracy have one hundred eighty thousand members will vote we have political parties and. there are term limits for democracy well this is quite successful it's a very successful year so what happened was that when that when the president. the president tries to get reelected and he can only do that once now during the period of the electoral period you know he has to quit and then treasurer becomes the becomes the president so i was the accidental president for three for these three months accidental supportable but one of the world's most prominent developed economists so after she one must question how close are we in your estimation to a. trade war and how damaging could be to the world economic growth prospects i don't know because. you're an economist so. there is very few things that

most economists agree on and that is that a trade war is bad for everybody it is crazy from a point from an economist point of view it's crazy to see how politicians are not only doing certain things that are reacting. no i do and donald trump put on still right he he's going to hurt the american people. yes he's going to protect the steel producers. and maybe a few jobs but of course how do you do that how do you protect your project by by actually having everybody else they higher prices including the companies that used to will be the countries that produce cars and refrigerators and who in who pays for these higher and more expensive cars and refrigerators the american people so essentially he's taking money from the american people and giving it to these people that benefit now obviously the it's politics if you look at where the steel

companies are who are going to benefit there are the swing states that gave him the presidency and he says ok californians are going to lose but i don't care about californians they're democrats anyway. so it makes sense from his you know narrow political view to do that now what's in comprehensible is that then europeans do the same thing we're going to we're going to put a higher price on board now you know who's going to pay these higher price they're european citizens they say are shooting yourself in the fort or i'm going to retaliate by shooting myself in the foot all this is stupid this is stupid you shouldn't do that even if the president in a state is crazy let him be crazy but don't bring this craziness back to europe. a good marketer think about the attacks of potential terror from birbhum. there's no suggestion is going to be a telephone scotch as yet and what you do with the squiggles on the lighter to

present you with which you put the scorch and only scorch in the query and passenger many friends thank you thank you so much for being thank you you thank. coming up after the break i interview two fathers stops regular economic and political debates they haven't got the libya join us. that's a very rough but they're a new sort of climates and you have to fight to be able to the flag. it was gunshots on top of them and so many friends ok what happened in the morning and i mean you don't. think anything will back up for me you know i don't want

to see it but a body in this world is ready to participate in the good. old to live good to meet him but if. you don't think about this if this all goes on no you got three it's like any other and other patients.

welcome back to the glorious i don't exist power in barcelona but i'm first joined by professor jeremy vine tutor another of the stake mr khan amiss and director of the master's program in barcelona for international finance trade and development. as yama thank you for coming to the i'll examine show thank you for inviting me now i'm interested in why so many distinguished economist such as yourself contributed to the the constitutional debate in catalonia the very beginning of their independence of money and there was the first reaction of the spanish estate was to bombard a catalan people all with the idea that a couple an independent will not be feasible from i cannot be a point a lot of very falls who is what they'll were published in newspapers continuously

and many of us that were looking at these issues from a more not a or standpoint or a more concrete way of thinking we started to talk to each other since there wasn't in effect act a community of catamount was when you spent most of or three of in the united states but a cook community of catalan economists across the world from the various centers of research indeed indeed many many of those many of the catalans that we are writing about independents that we may differ. is that we come up with a starting resolve many of us who are working abroad who was a metal work off economists working in many places there with these i have to say how can it be that these lights are published in newspapers or people are starting to believe them so we went and we decided that all. lesions to the right things that this group of economists were successful in raising the level of discourse in

terms of the constitutional debate i would argue that the answer these are sounding yes to the point that two years later let's say the around two thousand and fourteen even two thousand and fifteen the economic debate stop being a debate just let me let me give you like a simple example. oh the people or the arguing going for example you if you look at the newspapers in two thousand and twelve two thousand and thirteen two thousand and fourteen certainly there would be all these because they meant in independent get along yet. you will not be able to be their pensions. that's a misstatement and then you see because the state does have all the pensions cut alone you would lose it i'll think think about yourself you think you are the only imagine that i. hold my morning in the bank if i become independent of all the money that they have been saving over time in order to pay for my retirement so

we're going to lose it all or bill you tell that to people and people will become what it about. but this is a lie because pensions are not paid by funds that were collected in the past the now are put into investment and so on the pensions that are being paid today i based on the taxes that are being collected today for the pensions of my parents receive basically are based on the taxes on my celebes if the one year becomes independent the waters will remaining at the la niña and they will pay the taxes and in fact we made a very simple calculation we said the same for each cattle and that is contributing . how much would the pensions be separate systems and we found one that there are many younger catalans the ones that are more more young at the end than in the rest of us painted better demographics exactly so for the start

of that as you already observe that there's going to be more people for every pension. second among these young there's less unemployment so not only there are more but they want more often. and third they have a higher self. i mean the rest of us pay so if you stop and your separate pensions think that the money would be about ten percent higher than the rest of spain eve the same rules remained obviously the couple in government can decide to raise pensions can decide to decline with use pensions but if the same rules that we have now in spain pensions would be ten percent higher there's a precedent to come i think you're on to some other issues which the viewers are interested in brixton britain how damaging economically do you think that could be from an independent standpoint looking at that issue i think that it might be there might be substantial losses for the u.k. from being separated for europe but i think actually that the big loss is going to

be also for the european union a while always over the years felt and perhaps that's because of my us is ok show and my love for some of the springs whoever they always felt that the u.k. had a very sensible position he many of the european issues and that the u.k. has played a very important role in actually a boy doing some of their strong arm government sort of policies that picks up french and german are more likely to go on to put on or to or to support a progressive until a thank you so much for being my guest today they hope whatever else happens in this respect of trade where there's no suggestion of tolerance of scotch whisky seven that be a disaster for the exam and quit which i'm delighted to present you with you know the pro only scotch and not quit no other substance thank you very much on a show that's the case. and you must go well as

a former finance counsellor in the catalan government and as one of the world's leading mathematical economists he's a fine job the barcelona graduate school of economics and a professor at pump of fabric university and barcelona his text book on my career can or mix is the most used postgraduate my cracker nomics textbook in the world here he nice speaks to alex. professor welcome to the alex salmond show thank you for having me here i was interested. why so many cattle an economist taken part vigorously in the independence debate but you have cause actually what a government minister for to spell so you made that transition from academic economists to government ministers what brought you into public service public services importer if i have to evaluate subjective when i was a youngster was a very politically involved so politics does always attracted me and.

after a long period in a career there are some personal going to do you think to each other i believe strongly that there are many things that can only be done from from government that transition from being an academic serious to theoretical economists yes full of greek letters and your and your equations to actually the application of economics through policy how easy was that transition it can be done you have to do the well up some a scheme of talking to people. expounding ideas economic ideas the explain simply one can make people feel sure about them if you tell them that there are some great letters behind what i'm saying. if you would argue that your example and the was parts part of the inspiration why so many cattle an

economist took part in the constitutional debate and that was the fact that you've been a political practitioner encourage members of academia to to get involved no i doubt that look half the population in england alone. or. independents. so the logic says that half of the economist in god. one year on the balance. there are many economists in qatar none of them any good economists need a profession an academic profession which is where international lights lots of beads these from everywhere clashed one question about how an economist estimates the effects of carbon independence presumably you have to trade off the potential short term disruption depending how a settlement was reached against a potential medium term benefit from perhaps improved decision making this violence

has to be estimated and the some of the. some of the issues is one would have never contemplated leaving. leaving the. union so amy a scenario in your scenario involving a dependent will have to be an issue now you're there for some kind of mediation the rocketeer isn't going on mediation of europe because we don't want or to your site. union for economic reasons but also for other for other reason we are now experiencing what it means to be on the reproduction of the european. union there are there are people in jail the people in zaire in exile but you can count them with the with

a couple of huns. we have seen the judiciary rise one in germany in embrace. in scotland so in any scenario you see catalonia future within the european union but of course the graphic language just in the process of leaving the european union what's your assessment of the potential economic damage for the united kingdom. i cannot see how the how the united kingdom . could possibly. benefit from the storage to become a single. it's totally in bangor while you know it has benefited a lot from trade from medicaid in. from europe it seems to me. that move i don't know where you'll be tossed in catalonia near future i hope it success but when you do then please use the quick you know the trail

whiskey in the quick passage your close friends and frank you so much for appearing in the exam which are. very much in mind frankly coming up on next week's show we asked essential question of what is catalonia one thing is for certain there's more to it than f.c. barcelona is it a geographical construct and a new spin on an ancient european nation and are its politics a problem or an opportunity in this troubled europe we ask the people who should help us in this quest the poets a journalist and academics to answer the question of what is catalonia one of the best from the walls of the immediate post-war period was the third man starting orson welles and then not from austin wells who is a really nasty piece of work makes the point that in the blood forced the rule of the balls as an italy it produced michelangelo leonardo da vinci and the remez

songs meanwhile five hundred years of peace and stability in switzerland produced a crooked clock. a bit of an exaggeration but the something and the argument there is titans of turbulence which produce great art and also great ideas and i suspect that the one old renowned economists that we've spoken to the day only got involved in the catalonian political process because of the interesting times that catalonia was going through one thing's for certain the economics as practiced of catalonia is not the dismal science but the science of hope and then tests a patient of better times to come from tasmania and me and the whole crew at the alex salmond show it's good bye for now.

the way to the united states is dangerous for most of the illegal immigrants. to the most. simple they want to. enter and i want to ask some just about what if many of them look for refuge in the so-called sentry sides of the drifter used to share information about undocumented migrants with federal authorities money best person as bank. policy to morrow i am at a person i get i'm in a lot of class and they want that. they can't get water they all choose to stay in the country with donald trump in the white house all the gravels. both of you the

you can be about to be. a fifth it's double to many couples won't. deal with the putting put impulse response both of you up with a few of the most of the. with

parliamentary elections looming sweden is rocked by a string of attacks across the country it is prompting intense speculation over who started the fire with cha thought being a call warden late to the time. says former cia director john brennan exhibits quote erratic conduct and behavior revokes his security clear threatening a number of other officials with the very same measure. financial markets currencies around the world take a pounding as the economic standoff between turkey and the u.s. escalates.