where better to stop this exploration of cattle on national identity then to interview the top poet and catalog i spoke to francis possibly says. francis welcome. thank you very much you've seen by many one of the widest as the leader of what's often called the generation of catalan poets what provoked such as in the catalan point of your generation i think you know people born in the forty's and fifty's by the time we were able to decide what we wanted to do we had two ways in front of us as far as writing goes we could choose to write in got on them or we could choose to write in the spanish we had been brought up in the spanish under the franco for a game for all of us within the have television when i've read here within the newspapers very few books from fifty's on which then if

you decide to write i think what you look at is what you know and what you know is what you have surrounding you your family your landscape your language and that language was catalan so it's like this up through a tree that goes to the branches and then. might become green or not have flowers or not but the bends so the suppression of catalogs under franco actually led to the the opposite effect of the old dictator was there who was looking for i think partly. because you saw what was happening and why i mean when you look around even of the char i was a child. you realise you are using a language and maybe your family knows all sayings in those songs or you go to

a village and that's the language of the spoken and suddenly in the public place this language doesn't exist. it's like a ghost and. children have your city and you try to discover and when you discover you realize that those are your roots and i think it's important to find your roots if you want to grow and also if you want to become yourself. the robert scotland's national poet drop famously in the scots line it's primarily because he wanted to make a statement that the scots language was the equal of of english or any other language if you want to demonstrate that you can express ideas perhaps for you better cataloging and in spanish or any other language i think probably was trying to express. your own ideas i would say your feelings and your emotions more

than this language the tools we had were all in another language so it was important for us to recover the tools to join their eldest which were not all that all and i think we were very welcomed by the generation who had been born just before the civil war and. probably that they were the last generation in that culture in that language and when they saw that they were young people innocent enough to join the league. of wanting to write poetry and they really helped us a lot. you felt in good company and you felt also. belonging to a tradition which was ours where when you have stuff to go to. a young point that you

think. you know half a century or so later you'd be in a an environment where catalan is the leading language the official language of cattle and yet did you think that transition would would carry that far it's very difficult to know what you thought when you were young i cannot i cannot remember i cannot jump into myself sixty years ago or seventy years ago. probably not to answer the question i've been trying times on this program is for the international audience what is cattle o.d.s. catalonia and nation as an antonymous region is a part of the european continent community of identity what is catalytic i think it's all these things together it's it's a whole nation aids that people basically think that people's belongings and wanted to belong to the cattle and then it's a languages at least three it's

a culture it's a landscape which many things i think. what's. what made. the scottish people. what makes french people french what makes the american people who is one of the newest nations american i think it's. something which is there and needs to everyone and also something from. in history. and also having some sort of common future something that. something which. in the future is going to be better than what we have now what we had to the past. i don't know what the future holds for catalonia but i hope it's a good hope it can be toasted in

a quick. thank you know that you know that thank you very much risk in the quick. bottle to be open that some friends from some tangier as we can and did to bring it with you know now because a. i know well that was going through a thank you for thank you note joined by mark mchugh of a much. journalist rock one the top radio station catalunya you've got your finger on the possible one of the people seeing the events of the last few months well i think there is a lot of worry from people about what's going on in catalonia so maybe some years ago. paul's didn't show a lot of people thinking about this issue people by then were more worried about unemployment economics corruption but from the latest events of last year polls

show that people is now thinking about independence as i think unsolved and asking politicians to solve it so well in the middle worst bustling radio station what are your listeners falling on a boat on whether they footing in a boat in the promise of the falling down the politicians to go on with what was the word of the street well i think that there are a lot of people thinking that this issue should be tackled with a referendum other people thinking that there is no way to solve it in an agreed or through an agreement with margaret and that catalan government should go in just declare independence in try to implement our republic and some other people think that this issue should be forget and let's go to the autonomy and let's do are there things more easy to which is where do you think the argument the

political debate is good if it was going to be a new strategy of all the little independence supporters do you think the new government is going to be more or could juice of at least talk to live was going to was going to happen i thing. we are in a turning point after war has happened in the last month especially in october with the referendum the declination of in the benz i think that now. in the open and spark this should. have a reflection think about what will be the next step to take and they are not together in what can be a roadmap your assessment is going to be meaningful discussions between the the new president will catalonia and the new prime minister the spirit of the going to be able to come to any understanding i think they are going to discuss late the

tension but farther than this i don't know if the talks can go farther because the cornerstone of the question is what is catalonia so. according to the spanish government is couple one is just most of the people in favor of independence but also people against in the balance think that that alone is a community with the right to decide thinking about journalism reporting on the strawberry of vents is it a beautiful job was one million or more people buying used papers or more people tuning into the national radio yes there was a huge interest in what was going on these days so you know that new media we can check the audience minute by minute especially people connecting by internet and in those days of thing we had record of listeners waiting for news and what

was worse the reaction of what was going on. i don't know of if i. can supply the scotch whisky but i can supply the quid for the sceptical you know the drill with and then you can toss cattle and scott thank you thank you very much you're welcome. but one of the features of this cataloging debate has been the prevalence of cattle on academics working overseas and the prevalence also of the online media coming up after the break i speak to a professor from princeton university and the find of the oldest online newspaper in the whole of europe. shows seemed wrong. well let's just don't call. it.

just a shape out just to educate and in detroit equals a trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. finally the military can't ever leave now how does it let the balance point. line you feel you would be very easy to find a friend out and you. just said can't you see like this is. what i've done my duty by my little bit that they want you not that i would carry out the trip that i might be coming over i'd like to wait for tomorrow i've got to go but it.

was like. somebody. to see. welcome back and attempting to answer the question what is catalonia alex is trying to portray and to do for him now he works academia and online publications to find out what the people are telling the pollsters and what they're tweeting coast bush was a professor of political science at princeton university has a doctorate from harvard university and was an advisor to the world bank an intermediate can develop and bank he's been

a member of the american academy of arts and sciences since october twenty ten and was awarded the twenty twelfth o'barr to find ation price. professor explaining catalonia the feelings of people in catalonia you know as the independence supporters go and have the cattle and feelings of identity as a nation increased you're right that the sentiment for independence has grown ten years ago it was only about let's say fifteen percent of the population that would be favor of voting for a separate country or a nation and now it's close to fifty percent i don't think that national identity has changed that much it has become stronger and especially the support for these more radical solution has grown catalans always felt a nation or at least seemed to modern politics but they always thought that it would be possible to leave as a set of nations within

a spain and that was i think the project that took place in the nineteenth century most of the twentieth century are trying to reform in spain to engage in spain to get political autonomy and the independence group was basically a minority and that is what has changed the the way to solve the conflict and hosts the support for the prime the so even the feelings of catalan national at the house at the strip first of all the age groups in the population and also in the socioeconomic groups are the big differences. well as you know there are two main groups like forty five to forty eight percent are for pollution say that would vote yes in a referendum on independence. forty percent now say no and the rest are m b was one half and. the there is a clearly a different in terms of age so all the people are less in favor of independence i

would say that perhaps it's only thirty percent are versus you know so there is a clear majority in favor of no or union with spain among all people among the young i would say it's two thirds that are in favor of independence if we believe the current survey so age is important. the second thing that is important is family so basically eighty percent of catalans have at least one grand parent born outside catalonia so we cannot think of catalans as an ethnic group to basically you know a city community of people that some of them have family that goes back to you know the one thousand century eighteenth century whatever but most of the population have very very mixed origins now within those that have made mixed origins those that have more grandparents that were born here they are more in favor of of that of independence but it's not about ethnicity i would say it's about you

know the root being rooted so first bush you say that the demographics tell us that the vast majority of young people favor cattle and independence the just mean that the in the perilous movement and carefully you're just basically has to keep calm and wait for demographics and age to carry them forward. i don't know because you know things change and preferences might might change and the response of the spanish government may change although i doubt it but yes in a way i would put it in a slightly different way that perhaps. some things were done about how the generation earlier so that in ten years the majority of people in favor of independence would be big enough to do when the terminations referendum and that's what i don't understand about the spanish government because if i were me i would go for a referendum now. when things are kind of even because if you wait

and you use all these repressive strategies that they are using you may end up losing completely. for tell the future but what i can for is that you're going to be presented with the alexander and quit the driller's whisky in the only scotch whisky nothing else works and past your course it will be only scratches the only one that i'd like for us. now the online media has played a crucial role and the catalan debate i speak now to me said after editor in chief of the web i don't like newspaper has a claim to be the oldest online newspaper in the whole of europe congratulations on your long gave a t. of your thank you we keep living still twenty three years now so what bigger rule has the the social media and online media plead in the reporting of

events and obviously campaigning avails and catalonia i think that that's a trend all over the world but in catalonia it's very specific that the big mass media in catalonia the people in space. the spanish t.v. channels. they all support the unity of spain they don't support him for independence right even they are strongly against the independence drive so the dissemination of the message came more from online media from the social me. yes it played a major role but what is the basis of the catalonian national feeling that all is a country let's say that way it's a country that always has been fighting for freedom individual freedom collective freedom not only freedom but for instance every time spain has been on that i think that a ship the most strong people fighting for freedom even spain or have got on and

it's a very open society that has been always thinking of himself as a nation. i have in the dried to that every nation have to sell their permission for decades after the franc or. their year was to help spain to become a mother country but all of the sudden on twenty ten when the spanish constitutional court broke the agreement so you would regard that as a seminal moment a watershed moment after the berlin the spanish constitutional court it reverts to even on the statute of a corner autonomy which had already been passed in the referendum by the people of castle it that's absolutely the beginning of everything because there were sort of a pact the so-called two peace pact. because i want to have their turn at me and big cut all i can decide but spain keep a key which is everything decided in got only

a must go to the spanish government voted. but then cut army and have their own p. also which is that everything voted in the spanish parliament mass come back to get the money and be voted in of referendum so it was a good pact you have both sides have a way to prevent major problems what happens with the constitutional court and breaking the pact was the beginning of all the whole situation we have now because of people say ok so we this is not a further agreement as it was could two keys is there so the political reaction to that was to change the balance of opinion most of the catalunya which previously had been a forefront of autonomy but only a minority for the penders that then became a much more balanced situation between the independents supporters and those who are still for the union with spain absolutely but i think that was not the only thing at the center of the movement the start of

a graph of the moment and it was very important the so-called popular referendum that was self organize. as president of this in every little town there were i think seven hundred something like these referendums which of course what artificial turf and of but that showed the people that they have the power so they can decide they can organize themselves they can build something and that was a direct confrontation with the regime that was born in the spain after the franco dictatorship that is very eccentric which human in terms of democracy in europe because it it prevents very much the people having power they will take it to the first of the towboat woodley's dramatic events of the organizer for the end of the the violence by the state police and to love the world watching what they vents of where were you when all this was going on how were you reporting it while we were.

reporting that the first moment of remember was almost eleven in the morning some nine in the morning sorry when the ballot boxes were open police went to the president was among on the electoral college and the whole country saw the police breaking the glasses from the of the building so much violence that we all thought this is impossible that cannot happen that very difficult in order to. having information that you must know with decent real or not checking the information checking with the sources what really very difficult time i remember for instance we were there the first one saying that there were not elections but the in the position will be proclaimed two days before the promotion of independence and for fifty minutes northern media confirmed that that again

was struck by these fifteen minutes what i'm going to shoot for me i was you know my god you were robbed. that's the end but we were right but the who wrote this of it it's a very difficult moment for journalism but it's fantastic it's i think it's a privilege it's the first draft of history of the you have a good position to forecast if you will be going that i mean is that the events of last it was as big a watershed as the rejection of the of the constitutional agreement at twenty ten well i think that what happened on the october the first more political question was the sentimental affair this is the end for up for part of the cut on this is the this is a political problem and the only solution to this problem must be political and that they doesn't want to accept that that is no solution i think we will see again

. and very hot to do the time starting with september october especially if the. spain tried to send to court the political prisoners asking us for that if that happens i think the drive for the republican independence will be again on the table for the second time in less than one year the baby within the political discourse of all sides and catalytic maybe something of an answer to this absolutely i think you can follow me he is very difficult today. to create a fake extruded difficult because there is so much people involved with on any discussion there is so much that are available that is so much people watching all the sites of the story that it is much less difficult to have this debate on thing nielsen said it is there are three means of course but it is not so easy but a lot of the real. but often a real we have

a lot of real me ups this time thank you so much for the for the interview i have a quick the. scott's covered for loving cup so it's his whiskey in the quicken past that ruined all your remember journalistic colleagues tried to sell of assaulting her this thank you so much for the interview. in the three programs in the series we learnt a good deal about the catalan constitutional crisis first the dialogue has now started between the two new governments one in barcelona and one in madrid president laid out his ideas for a break through negotiations but it would be foolish to assume that this is imminent second that the cutline dispute which began as an economic argument has moved on to other even more fundamental issues such as legality democracy and nationhood and finally to see that catalan attitudes to themselves and to the future have been evolving with events such as the rejection by the spanish

constitutional court or the settlement of two thousand and ten the violence of last october i most recently the imprisonment and effective exile of many independents leaders a decade ago most cats one saw the future in spain now the position is delicately balanced. most fascinating of all was a suggestion that given the demographics of support for independence with young people overwhelmingly in favor of the shoot policy of the spanish government might be to usher any referendum forward and equally that actual policy of the catalan movement might be to delay until they have a more comfortable majority that would be a total reversal of the current position and this unlikely to happen what is more certain is this if one key test of nationhood is a belief in self-determination then catalonia passes that standard by overwhelming majority catalans want the right to decide even if they're divided on what the

decision should be it all makes everything political battle what the endgame uncertain what is certain is a catalonia will stay a focus of both european and world attention and so from alex i'm achieving catalonian for me here in the studio it's good bye for now thank. you thank. you thank you am to thank. thank . when a loved one is murder it's natural to seek the death penalty for the murder i would prefer and it means to win the death penalty just because i think that's the fair

thing the right thing research shows that for every nine executions one convict is found innocent the idea that we were executing innocent people is terrifying lose just new leader who hasn't been there we hear even many of the times families want the death penalty to be abolished the reason we have to keep the death penalty here is because that's what murder victims' families what that's going to give them peace that's going to give them justice and we come in and say. not quite enough we've been through this this isn't the way. i mean rape is down the labor participation rate is high so this goes against all the doom mongers before the election to trump and of course nobody in mainstream media wants to focus on this because it be live there in spirit if there.

is a victim. of it. in the. house it will be useful because we. were talking to. them i know i'm good at l.f. i got out i love it it was only a scene in which i did. but not a lot of any of us come out of a skid but i'm going to look at him as are a lot of us up the money into the magazine with. total along oh i left my money on. this age so you'll be. safe so this is a long. haul. but you meet. other people whose life was on the.

facebook hundreds of pages groups around in russia for alleged. for. free but because of the beautiful. video of a british policeman slapping a teenage girl. about. reasonable force. to a grown place i can find a way of restraining a fourteen year old go back to them. tell us. just like anybody else.