would i describe president obama's leadership on sanctions with iran with russia with other countries a little bit differently from what you did i don't think it's a question about germany making a moral stand or a value judgment what i would say is that we were able to convince countries around the world that on a variety of problems we had a plan and a way forward and that if countries were willing to suffer a certain amount of economic dislocation in the short term we can solve real problems and so in the iran case we were able to convince the government of russia china india as well as our closest allies to stick with us and we got to the j.c. . some of russia's policies we were able to convince as you say germany and other european countries to suffer some real economic harm because they thought we had a plan i think the problem now is that the united states is proving that we cannot be trusted with this tool and so the chances of getting even our closest allies let alone a nontraditional partners like russia like china decide with us i think they're

they're much much reduced i don't know if your heard this but chancellor merkel said the other day that your of can no longer rely on the united states in order to protect itself and i would argue that the more pressing. question right now is whether your of can really take it for granted that the united states will not lash out at europe economically do you think this rat of secondary sanctions is real do you think the united states could come with full force against european countries if they decide to continue trading with iran provided of course if iran is in compliance with the. so the threat of secondary sanctions is very rule real basically this idea that you know if you're a non us company you've got to choose do you want to do business with iran or do you want to do business with the united states and for most companies that's going to be an easy choice and for most companies the threat is sufficient the u.s. doesn't really have to do much in force meant in order to get a lot of big companies to say you know what this isn't worth the risk. but european

governments do have tools available to them to seek to counter the secondary sanctions threat and that's the question i think that's going to be on the table when europe negotiates with iran with russia with china with the remaining participants in the g c p a way to see if there's a way to salvage a sort of a rump version of the g. c.p.o. a and and if europe were to try to deploy those tools then you could be in a situation of some confrontation government to government confrontation between the u.s. and our allies but but we're still a little ways off from that at this point well mr bank we have to take a short break now but they will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. the features are laws that say the collapse gap when the soviet union collapsed because

of us meddling in boris yeltsin and all that's going on they had the skyrocketing alcoholism and so shoulder. here in the us because you have this enormous financial aid reengineering to take all the money being printed and put in the pockets of a few folks and leave the vast majority in a state of zombification this is the collapse gap he was talking about the u.s. and the soviet union both collapsed in the one thousand nine hundred ninety period it just took a stake in the us as he describes it you know longer to realize that collapse. because as you know provision of my by going to what we saw in those days i look i if we're lucky you know that ok. but i. did it oh. you're so your height oh i lost his boss because i just booked a you know got them in there but if you just got to go which was as you know. anybody on a month all of those important but the best honest i don't mean any of the. choices

you know but it was you know. you know just i mean my most wanted i'm already but it was but the bottom you just got to go. i mean without the lord we're going to go on which i don't know if it up as well i must admit that he was i just don't get it i'm getting letters but those were the oh so that is beautiful song we're going to respond on one of these but i would probably say does this where this one of these i'm going to get my will my body and we possibly could have credible by just but that there will be more yes it will be and he thought anything of it i think with you jim jim in ticket my thought out loud problem you just got to go you. welcome back to worlds apart but jarrett blanc former u.s.

state department called the nadir for ironically implementations mr blank just before the break we talked about the european reaction to trump's decision and let me ask you a few questions about russia as you may imagine many people in moscow very very skeptical of all the speculations about trump's supposed collusion with the kremlin but given the where we are with the reigning nuclear issue trumps rebuke of both the american obligations and to your european allies don't you wish moscow had some leverage sumber of poor with this administration well into. the collision question i'll just say. we don't know whether or not laws what specific laws might have been violated in the united states we don't know what president trump himself knew what is out in the public so obviously demonstrates that the trump campaign colluded with russian actors in a way that is deeply disturbing for for america i don't want to make any of this

discussion about the russian collision but what is out in the public at this point of time is the indictment of thirteen russian nationals who tried to do something on social media who have horrible english whose posts have been viewed by you know in some cases zero people so i think you guys are blowing it out of proportion but anyway let's stick to the iran and the trump tower meeting and the payments to michael cohen's accounts i mean the question is not whether or not the efforts were successful i think the point is that the public documentation shows the trump campaign tried but that as your question do i wish that russia had leverage over trump president shop i guess what i would say is this i remember a time not so long ago when i was working on afghanistan pakistan iran in the obama administration that we were able to compartmentalise our agreements and disagreements with russia so there were some areas where we had a very serious disagreement. and and we confronted each other on those

disagreements we were as i said occasional adversaries but where our national security interests overlapped for example in afghanistan for example on iran's nuclear program we retained the ability to work together and to achieve things and i do very much regret that the politics i think in both of our countries is pushing us away from the ability to be at least occasional partners i think that's not good for us it's not good for you it's not good for the world for the time being moscow has restraint in its reaction to transend restraint in its reaction to trans announcement about the j.c.b. zero eight but short term russia is set to benefit from the increase in oil prices even though it's sad both before and now that they devalue strategic stability more than short term material again now from my point of view the crime and will now have to think very carefully whether it wants to be proactive in its defense of the j.c.b. away or whether it just wants to go with the flow and

a lot of the europeans have the initiative what would you personally like to see well i think you're right that both russia and china we've talked we've spoken a lot about the ether european countries but both russia and china also have some decisions to make here as you say how active do you want to be in the defense of the g c p o a and how much potentially do you see the resumption of u.s. secondary sanctions as creating commercial opportunities for your firms in iran. you know what i would hope at least in the immediate term is that iran is clearly trying to make an effort to see if it's possible to salvage the deal foreign minister zarif is visiting moscow he's visiting beijing is in brussels it's hard to know what those negotiations with those conversations will look like and whether in the end i would think that that whatever emerges from them is a good idea but i do hope that all of the remaining participants in the g. . he will make a sincere effort to figure out if the deal can be salvaged now you've given

a number of interviews lately into each you essentially explain how unfair is trumps criticism of president obama's dedication to the but i wonder if there was anything that the obama administration could have done to make it more difficult for its successor it's you bringing on the agreement you know when i was asked in twenty sixteen what happens if if donald trump wins the presidency will he tear up the deal my answer was always it is hard to imagine any president of the united states tearing up this deal if it's working if it's managing to constrain iran from developing a nuclear program and imposing all of these very strict inspections on iran i said it and i believed it and as problematic as the trump administration has been so far i still find myself surprised at every new bad decision they managed to make now in terms of the question of you know would it have been possible to make it more legally difficult for trump to pull out the answer is really no there's been

a lot of talk in washington maybe you're referring to the idea that if this had been a treaty through the senate trump could not have pulled out that's not really legally the case previous presidents jimmy carter george w. bush have pulled out of treaties just on executive authority so even if you could imagine that the republicans would have seriously considered an obama proposed deal back in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen it would not have protected the deal from from it you also made a point in one of your articles when they disappear it was drafted it was primarily a bill to respond to possible iranian violations nobody could have. foreseen. they need to guard against american noncompliance and i wonder what is the implication of that because you you mentioned that they were a number of previous american presidents who essentially walked away from the previous deals but it seems to me that the. the rest of the world here is that you

can strike deals with the united states but they will only last as long as the current administration is in office well unfortunately i think that that's right i think that there is. the president trumps decision is dangerous for in the iran situation it's dangerous for the region but it also does undermine the position of the united states in the world we are demonstrating that we cannot take yes for an answer and that makes it very very difficult to make credible deals with the united states with any future president of the united states who hopefully will be able to recover they'll be able to demonstrate that our political sense system has come to its senses but it's going to be difficult now you mentioned before that on a number of strategic and important issues the obama administration and the putin administration despite the lack of very warm personal chemistry between the two leaders they were able to find agree of agree of obviously i think in moscow at least there is a sounds of missed opportunities what's interesting about donald trump is that so

far he has been finding it very hard to find a strategic overlap with peace adversaries but he found one geopolitical soul mate and this is israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu. do you think the two are working in concert or do you think that policies are planned mutually planned and coordinated or is israel just being a porcine stick in following or perhaps orchestrating directing president presidents trying to leave so you know i think it's very difficult to work in concert with the trump administration because the trump administration is so internally chaotic they don't have anything that resembles a normal policy process in the united states and so i'm a little bit skeptical that anybody including prime minister netanyahu is really working in concert i think that this is more opportunistic you see where president trump sort of biases and guts gut feelings take him and then you see what you can do without and so you know i think prime minister netanyahu wants

a more confrontational u.s. position toward iran he wasn't going to get that in syria because the president trump doesn't want a deeper investment in syria so he found a place where he might be able to rile up the trumpet ministration and increase the risk of confrontation now as you perhaps know it prime minister netanyahu has just visited. on sources here say that he's trying to advance a very interesting narrative he's suggesting that after trump's blog from the day scipio a threat emanating from iran is ever more pressing despite the fact that it was in fact israel which hasn't clamoring for the american administration to abandon this deal do you think israel is poised to become even more proactive in quote unquote defending its security in other countries and the where can it lead all of us well you know for for a long time i've been trying to remind people to distinguish between prime minister

netanyahu and israel prime minister netanyahu has spoken you know bitterly and angrily about the j.c. the israeli security establishment including now a string of she. of army staff have all made clear that the j c p a worked for israel by removing the existential threat that neuron in nuclear program would have been just making iran a threat but not next essential one so to some extent i think that present prime minister netanyahu is now in a phrase we use in english the dog who caught the car he got what is rhetoric wanted but he's right that this does pose real risks for israel the right response would be to try to find ways to deescalate the situation with iran on syria and other issues i think as we've seen this week there's certainly a risk that netanyahu will take the other course and see this is an opportunity to escalate tension and see if he can draw the united states into a regional conflict that you know to be honest president trumps instincts in this

case a right he'd like to avoid now the rainy and also wrote it in one of your articles now have a lot of things to consider the economic pressure the i would suggest a very provocative israelis behavior certainly emboldened by trump's moves also the considerations of domestic politics come into play here this multiplicity of challenges do you think it's likely to make iran more careful more cautious or on the contrary make it feel that it has nothing else to lose you know before it's a question i do want to say you know i heard you refer to israeli steps as provocative i would just say that everybody acting across that israel syria border is being provocative right now the iranians are being provocative the israelis as well it's incumbent on everybody to try to lower the tell me mr blank let me let me get to this point because i don't think there is a moral equivalence here because iranians and the russians as much as you may hate their presence in syria they are on the invitation of the legitimate u.n.

recognized government you may question the legitimacy of assad as the united states has done informally but you have never sought to revoke its membership in the united nations so your government also recognizes the legitimacy of the. and state at least at this point of time so suggesting that iranians flying over the syrian territory throwing throwing bombs on the syrian city syrian facilities is not provoking to fight i think this is not a fair comparison so i didn't say it wasn't provocative i said that everybody was being provocative you keep bringing us back to these legal and moral questions i would just say i'm focused on i think an overarching moral question which is how do you avoid a war and the fact is that israel israel does have real national security concerns about what's going on in syria including the iranian presence and it's in everybody's deeper interest i believe to try to lower the temperature that need to go back to your earlier question which is you know what does this mean in iran is it is it is iran going to be pushed into

a corner or do they act more provocatively or are they on the defensive you know my my guess is that we talk a little ization i think you're going to see some of that it was a show and i think you're going to see some of that out of iran as well i think they're going to be areas where they try to be conciliatory toward europe and others and they're probably going to be areas where they try where they they feel like they can or they need to be fairly provocative and again my hope is that everybody will take a step back from that and try to find ways to prevent an escalation which would be dangerous for all of us well mr blank i can certainly agree to that that we have to leave it there i really appreciate you sharing your perspective with us today and our viewers can keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me hope to see you again same place same time here and we'll to part.

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the headlines this hour and then not see rally causes outrage and stalk a menace matts with council protests it comes just weeks before sweden's general election in which the issue of immigration has. taken center stage. will say the latest polls in brazil. is the clear front runner in the upcoming presidential election despite the fact he's imprisoned and is unlikely to be able to run. the u.s. and china failed to find a solution to that intensifying trade world is reporting that beijing may wait until off to america's midterm elections to hold any further talks on the disputes

. but you can read all about those stories ever on our website and i'll be back with the headlines again in about an hour in the meantime though hey we're not international it's going underground and if you're watching in the u.k. o'reilly and it's sputnik. i'm after a time when you're watching going underground while we're away we're screening some of your favorite episodes of this season coming up on this show cia sanctioned torture in major nations former cia man ray mcgovern who served under seven american presidents tells us about american black sites in europe and warns us about the new boss of lonely britain may have to understand three hundred thirty million gods to get a post rex a trade deal with the world's largest democracy we talked to india's former foreign

minister yes under secretary general of the united nations structure for the role that's all coming up in today's going underground but first the british house of commons witnesses defense questions today and what are you gay defense department it is here is its boss declaring some kind of war with russia. should go away should church help but to raise a major government doesn't just want russia to go away we placing a disgrace deportation scandal home secretary is this man who wants private corporations to help defend us from russia we will also increase our cooperation with the private sector as someone with a private sector background myself i understand that government cannot deal with these kinds of challenges alone because anyone who banks that have bailed out a bank or who has taken a privatized train in britain knows how efficient the private sector is and remember these for profit corporations are not necessarily targeting isis terror

they also be targeting russian terror north course tanks by hostile states. the attempted murders in sol's reward outrageous attack on our soil using military grade nerve agent that in itself was a brazen message from the russian state we also know that the way that terrorists attacks on our planned and conducted has changed. people are increasingly being radicalized by their computers and smartphones yes terror from those radicalized by computers and smart phones a military grade nerve agent that doesn't kill a russian terror plot that has no conclusive evidence whatever is he going to do community policing to gather intelligence or a centralized police state there is approximately at the moment some three thousand subjects of interest that the security services. are sort of looking at each day

and there's also a further twenty thousand of what they refer to as of the close objects of interest previously investigated not any more of the twenty thousand i think there will always be let's say a few hundred that although there are close subjects at a local level these agencies might be able to sort of help with them and maybe come with an intervention program of some sort yes there are twenty thousand innocent until proven guilty people who have done nothing wrong that can be pinned on them they're going to somehow be intervened on even though they can't be arrested information against them will be shared around people on the list won't even know they're on a list and will have no ability to counter miss identification or false information with russia being lumped in this will stop people like this cripples being poisoned thankfully the usa arguably remembers german coffee and those russia could detonate the entire u.k. at a moment's notice with or without terms i could do such a job ads secretly shared lists in fact the us system of checks and balances from

congressional appointment hearings for the cia's new boss gina her support of the senate torture report lifted the veil a month speakable crimes joining me now is a cia veteran ray mcgovern ray thanks for coming back on there whether you have that much faith in the u.s. system but what did you make of the european court of human rights finding with you when you're in rumania for hosting cia black sites i thought it was six. right good of course it came late we knew that the lithuanians in the polls and the rumanians and many other countries including thailand. had cooperated in the kidnapping torture and so forth. of these cia sites but it was good to get it on the record and people should take notice oddly it also indicates that jena high school will probably not be able to land in places like berlin or paris without some

trepidation that should be arrested on the spot under the principle of universal jurisdiction i have to say though that they haven't been direct connections with the new boss of the cia to that but you think anyway the united states will be that worried that alone there arguable proxies of a one hundred twenty thousand dollar fine seem to be on the bedri to some critics well i have to mention that china has bill is directly responsible for what happened to the shiri one of the people who was also tortured in lithuania when she was there onsite as he was water boarded in thailand so the fact that she was able to dance away from that charge during the senate hearing was really unconscionable the judges according to some news outlets that she oversaw malk executions and rectal feeding of of it all right. cheri well you know it

was really gruesome you mention the senate investigation report four years in the making and released just before the current chair richard burr took the chair of the senate intelligence committee now the first thing he did was recall the copies of that senate for your report what does that tell you all right he was involved he was in the house and the senate intelligence committees when all this was going on there joe. and at the hip the overseers are not overseers they're over lookers and what they do is kind of take care of people like gina hasbro and instead of requiring her to answer the questions they let her go to executive session boss in fairness to gina many people in the mainstream newspapers of record whatever they say say that is the context of the nine eleven and surely you're not suggesting nuremberg rules should apply the f.t. here the japanese own financial times said

a hospital coworker said the torture was okayed by the white house the department of justice and the cia's had caught is not put. you can't ok torture ok. the us is signatory to the universal declaration on torture the un declaration which says no no circumstances civil war emergencies of any kind exempt a party from the prohibition on torture worse still torture doesn't work no matter what president from says you know i go i was an army officer an infantry intelligence officer i know the drill ok if that's the case why do you think the recent twenty six team pew survey said the u.s. public were kind of divided on this forty eight percent for torture forty eight percent forty nine percent maybe against torture well precisely for the reason that you it used a few minutes ago and that is you said in fairness to gina house bill the media is

saying that such and such. please don't quote the major media in fairness to jena has both the major media is a tool of the deep state of our country and the major media including new york times doesn't publish anything sensitive without checking first with the cia so you know why do americans believe that hollywood t.v. . they've been they've been brainwashed into thinking that torture works and the senate committee report that you mentioned four years in the making issued in december of two thousand and fourteen proves that all these techniques based on cia original documents doesn't work that nothing no actionable intelligence was acquired they could not have and was not acquired by other reasonable normal legal interrogation techniques and are now claims that you case is right now

a sharing intelligence obtained under torture the british shadow foreign secretary and lethal embury writing to the british foreign secretary lawrence johnson that this how dangerous would be the practice of sharing intelligence amongst nato nations of intelligence obtained under torture well with all due respect m i five m i six takes their cue from cia and the americans i mean what more do you need to juice but ambassador craig murray in east on he's in receipt of interrogation reports we which he knows on the scene are gain from torture ok and he says to the foreign office you know this this really shouldn't be foreign offices or our british citizens doing this and he says well if british this is our doing it sure can get in and followed it craig very quick to his great credit so you get a car.