claims that you case is right now a sharing intelligence obtained under. the british shadow foreign secretary and lethal embury writing to the british foreign secretary lawrence johnson that this how dangerous would be the practice of sharing intelligence amongst nato nations of intelligence obtained under torture well with all due respect m i five m i six takes their cue from cia and the americans i mean what more do you need to use but ambassador craig murray in east on he's in receipt of interrogation reports we which he knows on the scene are gain from torture ok and he says to the foreign office you know this this really shouldn't be foreign offices or our british citizens doing this and he says well if british this is our doing it sure can get in and followed it craig murray quit to his great credit so you get a kind of a bureaucratic inertia here were the americans say it's ok it's so facto it's ok

well it's not ok you are at the cia have been you police and i five m i six the cia or f.b.i. to not use an intelligence file that may have emanated from one of the united states is black sites around the world let's say all that so you want to prove that al qaeda is hand in glove with saddam hussein to help justify a war against saddam hussein well you know what you can get that from torture we had this prisoner he wouldn't admit that there were close ties between al qaeda and saddam hussein so we sent them to the egyptians a friendly service and guess what they got into it at mit in quotes that yes he sent all manner of operatives up to baghdad to be turned to be trained in explosives and and chemical weapons and guess what that was used by colin powell it is speak for. before the u.n.

on the fifth of february two thousand and three just six weeks before the war to justify what he called the sinister nexus between al qaeda and saddam hussein made out of whole cloth whether colin powell was deceived as he claims he was or whether re he was smart enough to realize what was going on that's an open question but it was right from torture and it was the case with the torture works you get people to say what you want them to say that's the only time it works and it only works with inaccurate information. you were of course at the cia under many presidents i wondered what you thought or made of the fact that britain's new home secretary sajid javid says that secret lists of people from m i five should be circulated in civic society to intervene on people to combat everything from isis to russia what he would do you think of that idea of secret lists secret lists you

know what i remember about secret lists or one of the nazis came into the netherlands for example and each mayor had a secret list in those days it was on paper ok the names of all the citizens including their religion ok now the mayor's with some conscience destroyed those lists before the nazis get a hold of them the ones that wanted accommodate they said oh yeah well here they are the jewish people right here and those people are taken off immediately to auschwitz and other concentration camps with that's what you get from secret lists those who are bad enough on paper on computer they're really mischievous another proposal he has it's been reported here is the first time this would be able to be done at airports in britain and all ports people who from the security services immigration offices would be able to question people who have arrived who they suspect osp eyes not being terrorists been. being spies what you make of that

initiative well this is part and parcel of this drug trick pony and overreaction to . two terrorist events now what you're going to do is just harass the general public to the point where actual sensible regulations are completely discredited and disregarded it's quite amazing how people have lost all sense of proportion because of nine eleven because of seven seven because of terrorists acts and no one asked why is it always that that they do these things or do they come out of the womb shouting i hate great britain i hate america no it's not that at all look to the causes of the terrorism that's a much cheaper way to stop it and just finally pictures were beamed around the world of you being injured that you know as bulls hearing she says she won't torture people as boss of the cia what sort of would you say would be

a chill the chill sent through nato counterparts of secret agencies here in europe now that she's in langley she was nominated by the president united states donald trump who says torture is wonderful torture works i'm going to do waterboarding and worse now. would trump have picked a person who would say oh no our number do that anymore are you able did that didn't work when i got there give me a break as for me you know there comes a time we have to take a stand ok if you can stick can't take a stand against torture what can you take a stand against i follow a fellow from actually from the west bank from bethlehem is name is isa an arabic. stood up against the authorities and he was tortured and i think that actually they killed him at least i escaped that so for rima goven thank you after the break. how has the un's under-secretary general treasuries or or followed up his

bestselling chronicle of mass murder in india by the british. polis more coming up about to of going underground. shows seemed wrong why don't we all just don't call. me long to get to shape out these days to come to the ticket and engagement because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. when a loved one is murdered it's natural to seek the death penalty for the murderer i would prefer an it be illegitimate death penalty just because i think that's the fair thing the right thing research shows that for every nine executions one convict is found innocent the idea that we more executing innocent people is

terrifying there's just no really hasn't been that we hear even many victims' families want the death penalty to be abolished the respect they get down here is because that's what murder victims' families want that's going to give them peace that's going to give them justice and we come in and say. not quite enough we've been through this this isn't the way. welcome back home the top diplomats and internationally one of india's most prominent politicians she threw has been in the news of the charges surrounding the death of his wife the full statement from his lawyers can be found on our website but we can't talk to him about an ongoing court case the former united nations under-secretary general however can talk about his new book why i am a hindu and he joins me now especially thanks for coming back on the great american

in american writing covielle said the whole decline of the west can be attributed to the failure of pantheism or the loss of pantheism but you say in the new book that india isn't can mean no gold after all so what is the end of his hinduism is we really of approaching our understanding of the calls morals which doesn't actually require us to believe in god in the personalized anthropomorphic sense in fact for a thousand years the hindu idea of god was rather like the muslim idea that is that god cannot be given a shame a form of gender shape a bigger problem cannot be taught see new imagine could be an idea could be a spark could be. we don't know what god is right so a god without qualities is what the hindus worshiped but they realized that in fact ordinary people needed more than that they needed something they could look to they needed for example in the basic here a lot of nature worship happened people worship trees and rivers and fire for

example so they said no we better have an idea of god that actually do they err by the way the big sages the rashid's the the thinkers and writers i mean you're talking about a religion. about a thousand years into its existence of four thousand years so that's what i'm talking about and then came up with the idea of god in a more familiar sense issue or a big one but they said since no one really knows what god looks like let's allow people to imagine god as they want and so there are three hundred thirty three million names of god with lots of forms you want to imagine god as a potbellied gentleman was an elephant's head going to show you men that's the image behind us we started the show you want imagine god as an eight armed woman riding a tiger you may do so as well but they're not all world they're all merely different manifestations because the human imagination is soon limited so we need to think of a god that we can worship strictly speaking god in hindu ism is brahman is the

split as spirits that suffuses the cosmos there is everywhere and every one of us is united by the same so will the up woman which is in you which is in me which is in your pet dog which is which is in every living creature and each of each of us find our seven a position where in western religions for example or the abrahamic faiths the body has a soul in hinduism the soul has a body the soul exists it adopts your body or mine for a finite period of time then it discards our bodies and moves on. ultimate goal of the soul is to be able to move into god into brahman and that is what we consider salvation in the philosophy of course what most critics and people who praise the book have been talking about and that is. the tolerant version of hindu

ism you are given it verse is obviously what has been seen as intolerance associated with the current indian government. you you say that hindu ism clearly accepts the possibility that abrahamic religions ups are all fine judaism christianity and islam so weak on the perhaps the greatest modern hindu preacher who in the late one nine hundred centuries made a very famous speech in chicago to the world parliament of religions said the just as all sorts of rivers flow in different parts crooked and straight into the same sea so also always of worship lead to the same god he said that i'm proud to speak of a feat that has taught the world not just tolerance but acceptance and so profoundly important idea because tolerance we are taught is a virtue but it's ultimately rather patronizing it says tolerance says i have the truth you are in error but i will make known i'm mostly indulging in your right to be wrong very different except where is accepted says much for it says actually i

believe i have the truth you believe you have the truth i will respect your truth please respect my truth and by that logic hindu ism is willing to see the merit in every way of worship what it doesn't accept as the clip of any other faith to be exclusively right and it doesn't make any such claim itself hinduism has no equivalent of saying there's only one way of reaching god or salvation it says always are equally valid ok what about what about this criticism of hindu ism that it it is based around the cost class system and oh you tackle the subject even here the very idea of progress is there is hurt somehow by this version of universal acceptance well the thing is as far as the caste system is concerned many good hindus like myself i'd like to think devout in the us can find plenty of justification for. rejecting caste altogether for saying that this is not it's

maybe part of a social construct of the way it has evolved in society as practiced in india but it's not intrinsic to the faith and i can assure you as i've done in the book scriptural examples anecdotes from history parables from our our great old epics and other poor honor's which say that you should not pay attention to superficial external distinctions such as caste hierarchy but it's true that many hindus still practice it and particularly when it comes to discrimination against people because of their belonging to supposedly lower caste that is actually illegal in india it's against the constitution where we have an affirmative action program for the so called carson tribes from the lowest street of society the most the most unfortunate members of our society but discrimination prohibiting people entry into temples for example on the grounds of their cost that's illegal an action can be taken against you if you practice caste and that's what some would argue it is of

a scale of say racism in the united states is the only difference is where is reeses visible castors not you can look at somebody and say oh that's have as new yorkers to look at somebody else and say he's up for the fact is that that's why cost is eroding with urbanization you have no idea of the cost you're of the person you're rubbing shoulders with on the bus and with affirmative action that's come a democracy you may be an upper caste person go to an office and take orders from a lower caste woman that's life going too far to say and i know you touch upon this in the book and your previous book that the british entrenched the existing india car system was a way of organizing in people in the colonialism well look the question of organizing the indian people in some of their communities i think attempted other bearded unable to do but you're right categorize control classify this was important to the. brits and the the map the census the museum were all instruments

of colonial domination and showed it and they loved him to his and we will use this really can use exactly so they actually did take we had castle we don't have a car system in the rigid hierarchical ossified sense that it became under colonialism so are you against party politicization of religion generally whether it be political islam or political interests that's what i'm against identity politics generally whether you want to keep up political fervor mobilize voters on the basis of cost of creed of religion i think identity is the least interesting way to organize political contention we should have it's very powerful about ideas we should have arguments about ideology we should be have arguments about economics who's going to do most to give us a better life who's going to improve the education system who's going to defend our borders better those are legitimate grounds for argument but to say vote for me because i'm hindu or for me because we have the same caste i know it happens but

doesn't mean i need to like it i don't and so basically the way the entire hindu religion is organized could be under any political system whether it be capitalism feudalism or communism it doesn't matter it or any of it it should matter in fact the point is precisely that's true of any society on earth that the wind which you organize your soul should be distinct from hindu ism in any case fascist it could exist under fascism yeah but hinduism you see actually seized religion as an intensely personal matter my father would pray every morning very development never obliged me once to join him the idea is that it's everything about religion is between you and your maker or whatever image of form of your me could you wish to worship or not that amount of choice is intrinsic to hindus so that kind of hammer all of that in into some sort of narrow street jacket of uniformity that's not something that's truly hindu or tall and that's where the political movement called hindutva which is. the ideology of the of the ruling party today and those forces

supporting it that dismays me a great deal because in fact you can take such a vast completionist accepting diverse all encompassing religion and reduce it to the team identity of the british football hooligan which is what frankly some of the goons who are the fellow travellers of the hundreds of movement today are doing some studies say that communal violence is up thirty percent under the render modi do you see any signs of optimism in recent months lessening of this identification of in do ism and the hindutva movement central tenets with the ruling of india political the problem unfortunately is that communal and identity politics seems to get turned on and off when it suits those in power when the economics is doing well they'll talk about that when the government's doing badly they will turn up the volume as it were of the common

a loudspeaker in order to polarize voters on the grounds of religion so i can't be complacent or even optimistic the battle stop happening those who are in power today started off very much on the hindutva bandwagon mr modi won the last election with a significant upper layer as it were of economics of saying i will permit willems version or absolutely but but but it's also true that the economics has not been well managed and as a result the country is not as well off as the dreams mr moody and his colleagues manage to sell to the voters the big risk therefore is it may turn around and once again creep up communal sentiment in order to compensate for the deficiencies of their economic performance it worries me well we invite the indian ambassador on to . give a challenge that thank you very much as you are thank you or should we talk. about it for one of your favorites. those from this season will continue to share your

favorite episodes into we're back for a brand new season but with that a fifth of september goal that comes with my first will be via used to. be. kind of. the future are laws that say the collapse gambit when the soviet union collapsed because of the u.s. meddling in boris yeltsin and all that's going on they had this skyrocketing alcoholism and so shoulder. here in the us because you have this enormous financial and reengineering to take all the money being printed and put in the pockets of a few folks and leave the vast majority in a state of zombification this is the collapse gap he was talking about the u.s.

and the soviet union both collapsed in the one thousand nine hundred ninety period it just took a stake in the us as he describes it you know longer to realize that collapse. nineteen seventy eight. to ninety nine and i i said better execute an. opera form sixty next years and the seventy years. people that recommend the death penalty and in doing the judge if they had

performed the execution i think that. in light of a different story on given the depth and it would go into. the united states is the last country in the developed west to execute criminals. about fifty percent of americans are for the death penalty and fifty percent against it. our capital punishment system is flawed this is not a matter of vengeance it's a matter of just the fact that we believe serves as a deterrent capital punishment is tainted by racial disparities having my father's

killers executed did not bring me a sense of closure is it to restore society or is it an issue if you take a life should your life be taken and justice is about us as a society. one nine hundred eighty two was my first execution. i was a correctional officer. one of my main jobs were to save lives so when it came down to execution i had to transform myself into a person that would take a life. jerry givens was appointed executioner in one thousand nine hundred seventy seven when the united states reinstated the death penalty. he grew up in the housing projects of richmond virginia. and remembers one tragic night at a party. when i was a teenager i witness

a young lady. shot by. i want to. quote a young lady because. i was. told it was. my thing is that if a person take a life of about a person and that person's life should be taken and that's what i believe. jerry received training to operate the electric chair and later to administer lethal injections. he became chief executioner in one thousand nine hundred two. i would say my team members take pride in their work their preparations. getting this person brady place next step and i prepare him just to see is he it's for the last time or. a last kiss of his mother sister amy is a wife or daughter. we all are human you know and this is

one human that had made a mistake and we had to carry out the orders. outside of his team of eight jerry told no one about his work as an executioner not even his wife. to keep it. secret and i kept it a secret from my my family. since one thousand nine hundred seventy seven other executioners across the united states have put over a thousand four hundred sixty people to death it's a punishment the supposed to be reserved for the worst of the worst. it was a gorgeous day earlier than feared a full on morning we met some friends in boston and.

twenty three thousand runners and half a million spectators gathered for the boston marathon. karen brossard her husband and daughter which cheering a friend over the finish line. we were there for maybe ten or fifteen minutes all excited with the crowd watching everybody come through and suddenly it was this incredibly loud. explosion. there were seven of us there six of us were injured. one of our their friends lost both legs that. i knew that my husband was pretty badly injured. my daughter had shrapnel from her hip. and i had trapped both my legs.

the two blasts injured over two hundred sixty people and killed three including krystal campbell. and eight year old martin richard. police pursued two brothers in a dramatic manhunt. twenty six year old tamar alonzo meyer was killed in a shootout. again later police captured the younger brother dzhokhar alive. cool. over the next few months karen brown in their daughter like many of the bombing victims had to undergo multiple surgeries. going to try to not let

this change who i am i'm not going to let this prevent me from living the life that i want to live. i'm not going to be afraid. one later that summer karen traveled from a home in new hampshire to boston for star ny observer a meant at the federal court . we were all seated together and he walked out he didn't look at any of us but his hand was obviously entered and my immediate response was i hope that her i hope it's possible. that was. not like me. and the recognition of that about me was scared because that isn't who i am. a of pled not guilty to all thirty counts

seventeen punishable by death. the federal prosecutor asked victims if the u.s. should seek the death penalty. i don't know. i don't know. i. i don't know what justice is. i got an e-mail. terrorist acts are rare much more common are the murders and other violent acts that happen every day across the united states. in philadelphia shannon schieber was finishing her first year of graduate school. she had been up studying it was early thursday morning before i would say it was friday morning. about two o'clock in the morning she was preparing to take a bath. the assailant who who attacked her he pried open

her sliding door. she screamed for help as she was being attacked. the next door neighbor heard that he called nine one one. he told me that he heard his neighbor she had screamed for help and he heard like a choking he said. the police arrived within twenty minutes they not done the door the no one answered. the next day when shannon didn't show up for a lunch date with her brother shawn he drove to her apartment building. or lucy and its neighbors came down and answered the door and sean said i'm trying to reach my

sister i can't reach. the guy i just would pale they say oh my god i called the police last night they went running up the steps they broke open her door and she was laying naked on her bed. by the time we got voted off even though the police were swarming around the apartment building and they let us know immediately that she had been attacked and that she had been murdered. we were beginning to face the fact that part of us had died and i mean it hit us very quickly.