it was mel fees and say dental fide lloyd blankfein of goldman sachs who used to be the boss of governor of the bank of england mark carney was accused of misleading congress do you think more of blankfein was lying or was he telling the truth that . well he was not being straight with the his clients in a lot of ways and we showed that in this bipartisan report and he wasn't being straight with the congress when he said that there was no massive bet against goldman's clients of some sort wall street down the city of london for what they were long before the fifteenth of september twenty eighth and it wasn't just socialist politicians like jeremy corbin a story coming those who worked in the banks themselves were coming and when they told their superiors they were sacked joining me now is paul moore author of crash bang wallop and the former head of regulatory risk and one of the biggest banks in the world h. boss paul thanks for coming back on they'll be acres of newsprint loads of stories about the ten year anniversary some people saying this isn't an accounting story a political story it's a criminal story it's

a tale full of sound and fury but signifying nothing the reality is that although some changes have taken place in the banking world and we talk about those in a minute if you like the reality was that it was the biggest opportunity that this world had seen for a century to regain some kind of control of the way would capitalistic system that we've got rein it in somewhat and gain control of the corporatocracy because we don't really live in democracies we live in a corporate ocracy where the big companies. control the democratic processes look you can get through every single protagonist i'm happy to do so but they're exactly the same people you've got exactly the same executives the academic evidence proves conclusively that they have very high levels of psychopathic attribute it's very important that you have the same type of executives you're going to get the same situation occurring again you've got the same chief financial officer. to do what

they're told by the chief executive and keep the orders under control you've got control functions risk compliance internal audit that are not protected whistleblowers are still not properly protected even though people say they are non-executive directors members of the same cozy club as the executives themselves who don't control the executives whatsoever shareholders don't exercise any stewardship audit ng if you want to talk about order to make it we get all the way out as a result is the biggest disgrace in the whole thing regulators what your point exactly the same people say you take the chairman of k p m g. john griffiths joe johns and appoint him as the chairman of the financial conduct authority. or well what are you going to get on to that have to say the big four say they operate in the strictest of standards before we get her bit more into the into those issues you mentioned psychopathy which is a criminal term often using gord's british medical journal says that austerity that

ensued after the crash of your birth and lehman brothers maybe by twenty twenty will kill two hundred thousand people we talk about mass murder that's a gross underestimate. in the year or so after the banking crisis the united nations itself published a figure that proved that over one hundred million people around the world have been driven back into abject poverty by the banking crisis now the mortality statistics that means the number of extra people who died as a result of poverty are somewhere around fifteen percent mark that means that the banking crisis killed more people about fifteen million the exact numbers not quite clear about fifteen million people which is more than any conflict since the second world war so the banking crisis wasn't just about money it was about death and of course it made everybody's lives misery and misery and still does. so the response

to it now i want you to remind us what you said to the treasury select committee that secured the resignation of labor problems gordon brown's advisor who was the deputy chairman of the virtual services authority james crosby i told them that i knew exact cause i was so senior i was one down below main board level i was the head of risk that boss and i i knew what had caused the crisis which was a completely inadequate separation and balance of power between the executive on the one hand and everybody else you're supposed to be keeping them under control all those figures that i've described and i said that it doesn't matter what the structures look like you can have the best governance structures and processes in the world but if they carried out in the culture of greed and ethical behavior and in disposition to challenge they will fail because gave b.m.g. one of the big orders richard and the other ones b.w.c. ernst and young deloitte in the news or some would say here because of russian

money sloshing around this country could be doing a lot of that other. basically can't be in g. contradicted your assessment of existential risk it was yes i mean it was a cover up and i'm very happy and have been happy and have been demanding a proper investigation into my allegations that they covered it up ever since i went public in two thousand and nine the financial reporting council that regulates accountants does nothing karelian you can you can think of dozens of example you go to was going to order to buy the tax order thing is a crucially important part of the separation of balance of power it is not being done properly and the ordering prior to the banking crisis of the big banks was a fundamental root cause of the failures in the first place they knew i know because i was a partner k p m g and i know how good the people are in terms of their intellect and cognitive ability and finding things you don't get the information from the company walking you do they do go. the information from the company they can go

anywhere see anything talk to anybody everybody talks to the orders nobody was covering things up for them i told the orders as they sit in the group audit committee meetings they said in the risk control committee meetings they hear what is being said and then management say ok we'll get another order to you is the order to is because of the way your probing or i'm not saying that there are changes that need to be made to make order to. better protected so that you can't fire an order to when they speak up that needs to be done and there is a review taking place all of the regulation of accounting accounting in order to get corporate governance by saddam kingman and in fact i'm going to go and see them but let me just tell you one incredible story i spoke up in the group audit committee before i went to the board a date was basically telling me they carried on this where they were going to blow the bank up didn't use those words obviously and the next day the audit partner from k p m g said he thought i had a death wish what does that tell you about his state of mind anybody who speaks up

as a death wish so that's their frame of mind and if an order to can't speak up then we're in trouble and we still are in trouble we haven't done what we needed to do so what did you feel when you heard about the lehman brothers bankruptcy ten years today did you see it as and it was just a few days before then your bank where your worst and had to be paid off by the taxpayer did you think oh maybe they'll be a chance now of a realignment here of capitalism the i am not a radical socialist let me ask you because i am a capitalist but we need a different form of kind of community collaborative capitalism we need to rein in the excesses of it adam smith did not describe free market economics in the way that it is currently described he believed that conscience would control things because in those days there was a regulator called the divine judgment authority which controlled people so the revolving door that. it was a little bit now i think that's a permanent position now well even the former for that. conduct authority executive

said the people most culpable were let off what's your reaction to the fact that no one's been really sent to jail for just it's no wonder ordinary people i spoke to my wife got me down in the car yesterday from yorkshire and she said well i don't see anything change because nobody was ever held to account but i want to just get back to the previous question is very important the only reason i spoke up and breached my gagging order and went and blew the whistle publicly was because i felt that i was in a unique position of being so senior that i knew exactly what had happened and what could be done to prevent it happening again and what is so sad to me is that we didn't use this as the opportunity to make the changes that needed to be made yes of course i'm in favor of a control free market economics that is the best way to bring people out of poverty but not the way it's currently done when fiduciary duties were invented for limited liability companies nobody dreamt that a company would have a balance sheet the size of a sovereign government and more power than

a sovereign government so banks are one thing. and you know there that the tip of the thing but really we should have used the opportunity to make some very serious changes to all of these structures that i'm talking about and in particular remove the protagonist to have high levels of psychopathic attribute from the boardrooms of what is or gets the impression from watching this that you're implementing of the fact that things do work and because you did come forward you did have a gag order and you did reveal what you knew it but didn't do any good it didn't help people to account it didn't get me a rogue a as a human being well i had to be honest i had through that period i had some serious mental health issues which were caused by the trauma and the incredible disappointment the excitement of speaking up and feeling that everybody agreed which they did and then nothing happening because the entire. response to the banking crisis was effectively controlled so it was a disappointment to me and i'm afraid it is a very risky business speaking truth to. and it's not just the fact that obviously

you you take the person who fired the people at the top but it's when your friends scatter like the four winds because of the potential infection because you almost become part of a difficulty i never got another job after after this. and i am an individual who knows what they're talking about i spend more time helping organizations to take more risk than the other way around because great risk management is like formula one racing it's not about slowing people down it's about making sure that the driver knows that they have not to drive into the you know when the brakes to go and that sort of thing will. after the break former lehman brothers bank is a supposed to party in london tonight to mark today's ten year anniversary but what does describe the governor of the bank of england's previous employer goldman sachs is a great quid wrapped around the face of humanity think of the shenanigans and from the headlines of threats to the international criminal court and the european court

of human rights. coming up a bunch of going underground. still dollars. thirty seven billion of those are printed every day there's no backing there's no collateral there iou against a system that has twenty twenty one twenty two trillion in debt. not including the medicare medicaid social security that would give it a under under fifty trillion and. join me every thursday on the alex salmond shill and i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics or business i'm show business.

two thirds of american households do not have five hundred dollars emergency cash. has. no value a population doesn't have money and burning money maintaining thirteen carious around the room why why don't you change your policies and do something that is good for the making. good in the long room. welcome back when the first part of the show we had from each boss was a blur and all the bull moore was fired for warning of a twenty eight crash to give us some stateside perspective ten years to the day that lehman brothers went bust is rolling stone journalist and author of the divide american injustice in the age of the wealth gap type you joins me via skype from new jersey matt thanks again for coming on the show you spent seven years covering

all of this what does it feel like ten years on it's funny looking back i don't i don't think that people have really learned a lot of lessons from what happened to a lot of a lot of this really. you know specifically what happened exactly ten years ago today. actually. i think there is so a lot of. the h. once was a blue is telling us about well i don't know about the british medical journal saying two hundred thousand dead as jimmy did in britain because of the ensuing austerity u.n. saying maybe one hundred million thrown into poverty what do you think of the fact they're having a party tonight in london to reunite lehman brothers bankers you know that's a personal thing for a guy i actually spent quite a lot of my wife. said person purchase agreement between lehman and barclays. in which some of the insiders from women as the ship was

sinking arrange to have gigantic bonuses paid for themselves in exchange for negotiating an advantageous deal for part so the idea that a lot of those vets who got paid huge amounts of money on the way out the door get together and celebrate the good times from when lehman helped nearly destroyed the universe that's that's that's pretty offensive but they've been somebody who is. just another one because people in the financial press they would accepting what you were saying even when you were writing about it is when you called it fraud by rich people wiping out forty percent of the world's wealth people said you can't be a scam or a fraud because some of that money the rich invested in property so they would take it into you know it's amazing looking back that nobody you know waved a ridge leg earlier at the f.b.i. as early as two thousand and four was publicly warning about epidemic of what they

call liar's loans and the financial crisis was really a very crude criminal fraud scheme essentially what was going on was these more rich companies like countrywide were pouring into low and middle income neighborhoods getting loans out there everybody with a pulse and then they were selling those loans down the line to institutional customers like hedge funds and pension funds with the quality of those poor loans the skies even back then you know after all is blue and everybody knew that this was coming eventually the bubble had to burst or they call it a weather event they said it was about your flood just an accident that happened it wasn't dead it was crime and this was just gravity happening and that that's why the crash took place and anything to suggest that regulation is change you've written critically of the security exchange commission over there of course regulators and have just been changing names actually every few years though so obviously their vision is some big changes. that you're going to. wiping out lives

were pretty soon which is a major change to financial system but it was a fruitless that was the interest rates being set here in london exactly that still have how we set interest rates low interest rates and there was a major scandal involving that process but really in terms of the roots of the financial crisis the major problems had to do with the size of the banks they were too big to fail when they screwed up and they over gambled on this overheated real estate market we couldn't let them collapse and that problem has not gotten better it's gotten worse but we did it responsibly crashes we rehearsed a lot of those companies together and made them bigger and more dangerous so we're actually more susceptible now to another crash than we ever were prior to two thousand and eight in the twenty zero eight one was a twenty trillion in household debt so they're like forty times you know twenty fifteen medicaid budget sixty thousand dollars for every american you saying it could be bigger the next time around if things are

a full well they had to basically scrape together every. real and imaginary dollar that they could possibly muster from the treasury and the central banking systems of the world to catch the breach and get a gaping suckhole of debt these companies a constant the fabric of the universe they're not going to have money the next time the next time we have a gigantic bowl berth only solution they're going to be able to have to bail everybody out is the circumvent the money out of thin air central banking process there isn't going to be enough there there just fix the problem the next time so there is a lot of talk last time that we were just far away from like a mad max and their hero where you know the entire economy collapsed and i think you know if they don't fix things that would be the future next time and just finally it's not only the ten year anniversary this week month colony is. had his

contract renewed as the governor of the bank of england haven't heard him say that the ensuing austerity welfare health education law enforcement cuts run justified to pay off those banks what do you think about because one of the things that was most of offensive about this entire episode is that you saw when this happened banks who were critical actors helped cause a crisis like goldman when we looked up to see you were managing the crisis response we saw but it was all people like hank paulson mary. now you know mark carney who were veterans from those banks. so we actually have career civil servants manning the regulatory positions we're never going to have a situation where there is going to be too cozy relationship between the financial services sector and the regulatory. thank you well now to go through some of the week's papers is the u.k. prime minister trades amaze old home of his colleague norman baker who's david cameron as

a minister of state building thanks for coming back on we're going to go to lehman brothers in a second but obviously with two more liberal democrat all of them conference i got to ask you as a house member to the other week will you be becoming the next leader of the democrats and sits with lloyd george and with him to had since that action when liechtenstein wouldn't so well cock up us all forward and also the prime minister your old colleague at the home office was we going to be covering it later in the show said parliamentarians should not be appearing on this channel because you risk becoming a propaganda asset for vladimir putin and no one's propaganda that i've always put my own mind will continue to do so and i believe in an open free democracy and one could snoop in for you press people to switch off or you can just agree that we shouldn't be stifling people's voices that's a very dangerous road to go even the scottish liberal democrats all the right in emergency motion saying that immediately this channel license should be revoked the wrong. most obviously but i think. we should also. ask you what you thought of the

exclusive interview the suspects the screwball suspects that if you have it this year well that's an extraordinary story isn't it i mean it's obvious a very serious one but the fact of the matter is it is difficult to believe that two people call away from moscow to see souls perspire wonderful though it is ok i guess we'll have to hear more from you from the police inquiry later on but one thing there's been no police inquiry about as far as i can tell is the ramifications of this let's go through this was story than the yes from the independent lehman brothers stuff to hold sickening toast ten years after bank collapse sparks economic crisis is the party tonight he going but i wouldn't be going if i were invited to be honest with you i think it is sickening that's the correct adjective idea that this is at attitude of bankers which goes back to the one nine hundred eighty s. just arrogance about the rest of the population and arrogance about the huge economic and social catastrophe that followed the banking crisis ten years will give our economy financial services will be all but they should behave in

a proper way be regulated probably by the government and they should behave as somewhat ality and we should have some humble views i think about what happened ten years ago rather than celebrating over the party use of the government the poor billions in bailout for these and what was the bailouts were necessary but a complete collapse of the economy had gordon brown initially as prime minister alistair darling not acted to save one or two of the banks at the time in two thousand and eight but the attitude of these bankers shows a complete disregard for the consequences of their actions back in two thousand and eight and the suffering that's been enjoyed by many of the population ever since let's go to the next story which kind of involves you you were the home office when the yes was going on you came a surveillance regime violates human rights top european court rules and none model verdict and of course join the coalition years a prisoner can constant battle between the tories and lib dems it's always wanted every single lever they could pull as far as you could pull it to monitor and survey people and we. was saying how in a minute yes there's

a problem we recognize the value of surveillance but you've got to go hand in hand with safeguards to protect privacy and an up whole democratic values because the european court of human rights which presumably will be leaving anyway says that whatever would snowden revealed it's fine to do well in deception of all data i have no problem with dodging all of photos i have no problem with data being collected and stored the issue then becomes who can access it for what purposes someone can always access it if they have bugging everything we all do and everyone would too and there is a but there is a balance as to who can access it what safeguards are in place is used judicially involved or as a politician deciding it and so on these are the matters we need to be sorted out and haven't been by the conservatives in government let's go on to the next story the great national security advisor of dollar trump yes this man's terrible john bolton vows to punish i.c.c. after a court announces probe of alleged u.s. war crimes in afghanistan last washington conforming to more moscow and beijing of

long said and indeed to resume as refused to sign off their crime of aggression b. i.c.c. is dying of well i don't think it is dying and remember the i.c.c. although it's not adhere to the latest suggestion aggression should be brought into the i.c.c. remit in the way that the courts suggest a billion you see it's important body is an international body that's all done some good work already but it's not just frankly for bringing black african dictators to the court it was just well it shouldn't be should be about any country in the world which violates the international norms of behavior should be held to account and for john bolton who is a warmonger par excellence to start telling us that the u.s. is exempt from this on the high pay no attention to it and even stop prosecuting judges i think as far as i can understand others of the i wasn't going to do that he has no point in saying well running as an international court to trump the will of the american people who vote for politicians by trump. and appoint people like

big center point bolted because international standards of morality trump used up trump national laws and it's an important safeguard in our world today to be sure we don't have to take this new government running out of control and john bolton's attitude is americans do what the hell it wants and their body else can just live with it that's not what will show you the snoopy you are for the. good. muslim also those girls will give you good girls. go your dish also look look your simu belonging to sure it's good to go. to starts to. get to needed so it was the night of the mist they'd say look it is it's. your stash to understand just need to mashed on. this trip the president can please control this project until.

we have produced a great listener to snoop to come up to new york because that is the girls who are to zero his supporters to whom should station shouldn't be you should cut off the one who's doing business. there was already on the table which are directed at discrimination and marginalization of the ukrainian orthodox church one such a law. that will presuppose that the ukrainian orse in the church should change its name and that it should be a name to the russian orthodox church in the ukraine if there's something like putting so the. yellow star on the georgians the infield just.

the pain watchdog says they will discuss reinstating the russian anti doping agency as a member of the spend it in twenty fifteen amid claims of a. full and also french people say the

u.s. is no longer a trusted ally as president prepares to cozy up to one small ahead of an official visit. to the world's biggest women them power program by usa id and afghanistan turned out to be.