selves saw it coming and when they told their superiors they were sacked joining me now is paul moore author of crash bang wallop and the former head of regulatory risk and one of the biggest banks in the world h. boss paul thanks for coming back on they'll be acres of newsprint loads of stories about the ten year anniversary some people saying this isn't an accounting story a political story it's a criminal story it's a tale full of sound and fury but signifying nothing the reality is that although some changes have taken place in the banking world and we talk about those in a minute if you like the reality was that it was the biggest opportunity that this world had seen for a century to regain some kind of control of the way word capitalistic system that we've got rein it in somewhat and gain control of the corporatocracy because we don't really live in democracies we live in a corporate ocracy where the big companies. control the democratic processes look you can get through every single protagonist i'm happy to do so but they're exactly

the same people you've got exactly the same executives the academic evidence proves conclusively that they have very high levels of psychopathic attribute it's very important that you have the same type of executives you're going to get the same situation occurring again you've got the same chief financial officers who do what they're told by the chief executive and keep the orders under control you've got control functions risk compliance internal audit that are not protected whistleblowers are still not properly protected even though people say they are non-executive directors members of the same cozy club as the executives themselves who don't control the executives whatsoever shareholders don't exercise any stewardship audit ng if you want to talk about an order to going to guarantee it will get all the way out as a result is the biggest disgrace in the whole thing regulators what your point exactly the same people say you take the chairman of k p m g. john griffiths joe johns and appoint him as the chairman of the. natural conduct authority. well what

are you going to get on to that have to say the big four say they operate in the strictest standards before we get her bit more into it to those issues you mentioned psychopathy which is a criminal term often using gord's british medical journal says that austerity that ensued after the crash of your. lehman brothers maybe by twenty twenty will kill two hundred thousand people we talk about mass murder that's a gross underestimate. in the year or so after the banking crisis the united nations itself published a figure that proved that over one hundred million people around the world have been driven back into abject poverty by the banking crisis now the mortality statistics that means the number of extra people who died as a result of poverty are somewhere around fifteen percent mark that means that the banking crisis killed more people about fifteen million the exact numbers not quite

clear about fifteen million people which is more than any conflict since the second world war so the banking crisis wasn't just about money it was about death and of course it made everybody's lives misery and misery and still does the response to it now i want you to remind us what you said to the treasury select committee that secured the resignation of labor problems gordon brown's advisor who was the deputy chairman of the virtual services authority james crosby i told them that i knew exact cause i was so senior i was one down below main board level i was the head of risk it. and i i knew what had caused the crisis which was completely inadequate separation and balance of power between the executive on the one hand and everybody else you're supposed to be keeping them under control all those figures that i've described and i said that it doesn't matter what the structures look like. you can have the best government structures and processes in the world

but if they carried out in the culture of greed and ethical behavior and in disposition to challenge they will fail because gave b.m.g. one of the big orders richard and the other ones b.w.c. ernst and young deloitte in the news or some would say here because of a russian money sloshing around this country could be doing a lot of that other. basically can't be in g. contradicted your assessment of existential risk it was yes i mean it was a cover up and i'm very happy and have been happy and have been demanding a proper investigation into my allegations that they covered it up ever since i went public in two thousand and nine the financial reporting council that regulates accountants does nothing karelian you can you can think of dozens of example you go to was going to order to buy the tax order thing is a crucially important part of the separation of balance of power it is not being done properly and the ordering prior to the banking crisis of the big banks was

a fundamental root cause of the failures in the first place they knew i know because i was a partner k p m g and i know how good the people are in terms of their intellect and cognitive ability and finding things you don't get the information from the company walking you do they do get the information from the company they can go anywhere see anything talk to anybody everybody talks to the orders nobody was covering things up for them i told the orders as they sit in the group audit committee meetings they said in the risk control committee meetings they hear what is being said and then management say ok we'll get another order to you is the auditor is because of the way your probing or i'm not saying that there are changes that need to be made to make order to. better protected so that you can't fire an order to when they speak up that needs to be done and there is a review taking place all of the regulation of accounting accounting in order to get corporate governance by saddam kingman and in fact i'm going to go and see them but let me just tell you one incredible story. i spoke up in the group audit

committee before i went to the board a date was basically telling that they carried on this where they're going to blow the bank up didn't use those words obviously and the next day the audit partner from k p m g said he thought i had a death wish what does that tell you about his state of mind anybody who speaks up has a death wish so that's their frame of mind and if an order to can't speak up then we're in trouble and we still are in trouble we haven't done what we needed to do so what did you feel when you heard about the lehman brothers bankruptcy ten years today did you see it as and it was just a few days before then your bank were here first and had to be paid off by the taxpayer did you think oh maybe they'll be a chance now of a realignment here of capitalism the i am not a radical socialist let me ask you because i am a capitalist but we need a different form of kind of community collaborative capitalism we need to rein in the excesses of it adam smith did not describe free market economics in the way that it is currently described he believed that conscience would control things

because in those days there was a regulator called the divine judgment authority which controlled people so the revolving door that. it was a little bit now i think that's a permanent position now well even the former fanatical that authority executive said the people most culpable were let off what's your reaction to the fact that no one's been really sent to jail for it it's just it's no wonder ordinary people i spoke to my wife got me down in the car yesterday from yorkshire and she said well i don't see anything change because nobody was ever held to account but i want to just get back to the previous question is very important the only reason i spoke up and breached my gagging order and went and blew the whistle publicly was because i felt that i was in a unique position of being so senior that i knew exactly what had happened and what could be done to prevent it happening again and what is so sad to me is that we didn't use. this is the opportunity to make the changes that needed to be made yes

of course i'm in favor of a control free market economics that is the best way to bring people out of poverty but not the way it's currently done when fiduciary duties were invented for limited liability companies nobody dreamt that a company would have a balance sheet the size of a sovereign government and more power than a sovereign government so banks are one thing. and you know there that the tip of the thing but really we should have used the opportunity to make some very serious changes to all of these structures that i'm talking about and in particular remove the protagonist to have high levels of psychopathic attribute from the boardrooms or what is all this impression from watching this that you're implementing of the fact that things do work and because you did come forward you did have a gag order and you did reveal what you knew it but it didn't do any good it didn't help people to account it didn't get me or ok as a human being well i've had to be honest i had through that period i had some serious mental health issues which were caused by the trauma and the incredible disappointment the excitement of speaking up and feeling that everybody agreed

which they did and then nothing happening because the entire. response to the banking crisis was effectively controlled so it was a disappointment to me i'm afraid it is a very risky business speaking truth to power and it's not just the fact that obviously you you irritate the person who fired you and the people at the top but it's when your friends are like the four winds because of the potential infection because you almost become part of a leper colony i never got another job after after this. and i am a very competent individual who knows what they're talking about i spent more time helping organisations to take more risk than the other way round because great risk management is like formula one racing it's not about slowing people down it's about making sure that the driver knows of the that had to how not to drive into the armco and you know when the brakes are going and that sort of thing or will take it . after the break form of lehman brothers bank is

a supposed to posse in london tonight to mock today's ten year anniversary but what does met tony do you describe the governor of the bank of england's previous employer goldman sachs as a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity think of the shenanigans and from the switch headlines of threats to the international criminal court and among mock relief do a pretty cool to human rights all the civil coming over boxes of going underground . my body told me that i belong with the poor but my thoughts my mind with and then along with the girls. under the surgery starts to be a very popular. football person's doctor. i was born a male had a sex change when i was thirty years old. i've now been living as

a woman for twenty eight years and i fully regret this. problem should have gone away from it by now but they hadn't so these surgeries are nothing more than plastic surgery i've had several female to male friends and you look at it and you just go oh god you paid for that it's horrible nobody can change genders it's impossible. is delusional it's a mental illness. this is now where one of my bones from flesh of my flesh she shall be called woman because she was taken down from the. walls already on the table which they are exits that's discrimination and the margin the way zation of the ukraine that most of those. one side. effects if that

will presuppose those that see you playing in the most of the church should change its name and that it should be named as a russian orthodox church in the ukraine it is something like puts things the. halo star on the jewel of the ins the in this photo of the. welcome back when the first part of the show we had from each boss was a blur and all the pull more was fired for warning of a twenty eight crash to give us some stateside perspective ten years to the day that lehman brothers went bust is rolling stone journalist and author of the divide american injustice in the age of the wealth gap type you joins me via skype from

new jersey matt thanks again for coming on the show you spent seven years covering all of this what does it feel like ten years on it's funny looking back i don't i don't think that people have really learned a lot of lessons from what happened to a lot of a lot of this really so persistent. you know specifically what happened exactly ten years ago today. actually. i think there is so a lot of good research in the h. was was a blue is telling us about well i told him about the british medical journal saying two hundred thousand dead as to may did in britain because of the ensuing austerity un saying maybe one hundred million thrown into poverty what do you think of the fact they're having a party tonight in london to reunite lehman brothers bankers you know but that's a personal thing for a guy actually spent quite a lot of my wife's. person's purchase agreement between

lehman and barclays in which some of the insiders from women as the ship was sinking arrange to have gigantic bonuses paid for themselves in exchange for negotiating an advantageous deal for part so the idea that a lot of those vets who got paid huge amounts of money on the way out the door get together and celebrate the good times from when lehman helped nearly destroy the universe it's pretty offensive but they've been somebody who is. just another one because people in the financial press they would accepting what you were saying even when you were writing about it is when you called it fraud by rich people wiping out forty percent of the world's wealth people said you can't be a scam or a fraud because some of that money the rich invested in property so they would take it into you know it's amazing looking back that nobody you know waved a ridge leg earlier at the f.b.i.

as early as two thousand and four was publicly warning about epidemic of what they call liar's loans and the financial crisis was really a very crude criminal fraud scheme essentially what was going on was. more it companies like countrywide were pouring into low and middle income neighborhoods getting loans out there everybody with a pulse and then they were selling those loans down the line to institutional customers like hedge funds and pension funds with the quality of those poor loans the skies even back then you know after all this blue and everybody knew that this was coming eventually the bubble had to burst but they call it a weather event they said it was about your flood just an accident that happened it wasn't bad it was crime and this was just gravity happening and that that's why the crash took place and anything to suggest that regulation is change you've written critically of the security exchange commission over there of course our regulators and have just been changing names actually every few years or so obviously. there

has been some big changes. you're going to be wiping out lives were pretty soon which is a major change to financial system but it was a fraudulent that was the interest rates being set here in london exactly that's still how we set interest rates low interest rates and there was a major scandal involving that process but really in terms of the roots of the financial crisis the major problems had to do with the size of the banks they were too big to fail. they screwed up and they over gambled on this overheated real estate market we couldn't let them collapse and that problem has not got better it's got worse what we did in response to the crashes we heard all of those companies together and made them bigger and more dangerous so we're actually more susceptible now to another crash than we ever were prior to two thousand and eight it was the twenty zero eight one was a twenty trillion in household debt so they're like forty times you know twenty fifteen medicaid budget sixty thousand dollars for every american you're saying

could be bigger the next time around if things under full well they had to basically scrape together every. real and imaginary dollar that they could possibly muster from the treasury and the central banking systems of the world to catch the whole d.j. get a gaping such kolo debt these companies a constant the fabric of the universe they're not going to have money the next time the next time we have a gigantic bowl berth only solution they're going to be able to have to bail everybody out is the invest the money out of thin air central banking process there isn't going to be enough there there to fix the problem next time so there is a lot of talk last time that we were just far away from like a mad max and their hero where you know the entire economy collapsed and i think you know if they don't fix things that would be the future next time and just finally it's not only that. on your anniversary this week mark carney is had his

contract renewed as the governor of the bank of england haven't heard him say that the in suing austerity welfare health education law enforcement cuts run justified to pay off those banks what do you think about because one of the things that was most of offensive about this entire episode is that you saw when this happened banks who were critical actors helped cause a crisis like goldman when we looked up to see you were managing the crisis response we saw but it was all people like hank paulson mary. now you know mark carney who were veterans from those banks. so we actually have career civil servants manning the regulatory positions we're never going to have a situation where there is going to be too cozy relationship between the financial services sector and the regulatory. thank you well now to go through some of the week's papers is the u.k. prime minister trades amaze old home of his colleague norman baker who's david

cameron as a minister of state building thanks for coming back on we're going to go to lehman brothers in a second but obviously with the moore's liberal democrat all of them conference i got to ask you as outnumbered opening the other week will you be becoming the next leader of the democrats and sit with lloyd george and with him to had since that action when liechtenstein wouldn't so well cock up us all forward and also the prime minister your old colleague at the home office was we going to be covering it later in the show said parliamentarians should not be appearing on this channel because you risk becoming a propaganda asset for vladimir putin and no one's propaganda that i've always put my own mind will continue to do so and i believe in an open free democracy and that includes an open for you press people to switch off or you can just agree that we shouldn't be stifling people's voices that's a very dangerous road to go to even the scottish liberal democrats all the right in emergency motion saying that immediately this channel license should be revoked the wrong people. most i will say but i think i should also ask you what you thought of

the exclusive interview the suspects the screwball suspects that appeared of this year well that's an extraordinary story isn't it i mean it's obvious a very serious one but the fact of the matter is it is difficult to believe that two people come all the way from moscow to see souls perspire wonderful though it is ok i guess we'll have to hear more from more from the police inquiry later on but one thing there's been no police inquiry about as far as i can tell is the ramifications of this let's go through this was story than that yes from the independent lehman brothers stuff to hold sickening toast ten years after bank collapse sparks economic crisis is the party tonight you're going to but i wouldn't be going if i were invited to be honest with you i think it is sickening that's the correct adjective i do this this is attitude of bankers which goes back to the one nine hundred eighty s. just arrogance about the rest of the population and arrogance about the huge economic and social catastrophe that followed the banking crisis ten years will

give our economy financial services will be all but they should behave in a proper way be regulated probably by the government on the ship but he was somewhat ality and he should have some humble views i think about what happened ten years ago rather than celebrating it with a party you serve the government the poor billions in bailout of these and what was the bailouts were necessary but a complete collapse of the economy had gordon brown initially as prime minister alistair darling not acted to save one or two of the banks at the time in two thousand and eight but the attitude of these bankers shows a complete disregard for the consequences of their actions back in two thousand and eight and the suffering that's been enjoyed by many of the population ever since let's go to the next story which kind of involves you you were the home of this windmill yes was going on you came a surveillance regime violates human rights top european court rules and none mob verdict and of course join the coalition years it was a can between the tories and lib dems it's always wanted every single lever they could pull as as far. i could pull it to monitor and survey people and we were

saying how in a minute yes there's a problem we recognize the value of surveillance but you've got to go hand in hand with safeguards to protect privacy and an up whole democratic values you know because the european court of human rights which presumably leaving anyway says that whatever would snowden revealed it's fine to do well interception of all data i have no problem with dodging all of those i have no problem with data being collected and stored the issue then comes who can access it for what purposes someone can always access it if they have everything that we all do and everyone want to know there is a but there is a balance as to who can access it what safeguards are in place is used judicially involved or as a politician deciding it and so on these are the matters we need to be sorted out and haven't been by the conservatives in government let's go on to the next story the great national security advisor of dollar trump yes this man's terrible john bolton vows to punish i.c.c. after a court announces probe of alleged u.s.

ball crimes in afghanistan last washington conforming to more moscow and beijing of long said and indeed to raise a may as refused to sign off their crime of aggression b. i.c.c. is dying of well i don't think it is dying and remember the i.c.c. although it's not adhere to the latest suggestion aggression should be brought into the i.c.c. remit in the way that the courts suggest to but the un should see it's important body is an international body that's all done some good work already but it's not just frankly for bringing black african dictators to the court it was just well it shouldn't be you should be about any country in the world which violates the international norms of behavior should be held to account and for john bolton who is a warmonger par excellence to start telling us that the u.s. is exempt from those on the hop pay no attention to it and even stop prosecuting judges i think is positive i can understand others of the i wasn't going to do it he has no point in saying well running has an international court to trump the will . the american people who vote for politicians like trump and appoint people like

the clever boy bolted because international standards of morality trumps use of trump national laws and it's an important safeguards in our world today to be sure we don't have to take it isn't government running out of control and john bolton's attitude is american to do with it hell it wants and nobody else can just live with it that's not the way america should behave is demeaning for america and is dangerous for the world and make a former minister of state thank you. well tourism may seem doggedly to try and use the last pm queues before another recess to stop politicians as we've been hearing appearing on this t.v. channel we all have doubts about the objectivity of the reporting of russian russia today which does remain a tool of propaganda for the russian state now decisions about appearing on russia today is a matter of judgement for each individual but they should be clear they risk being used as propaganda tools by the russian state we'll going underground categorically

deny that any of our guests on this show risk any such thing we are regulated by a u.k. agency and some may speculate a statement is merely symptomatic of a fear of real journalism certainly elites doubted this politician when he appeared on going underground to launch his leadership of the u.k. labor party everywhere you look mr speaker this government is failing one million families using food banks a million workers on zero hours contracts for money and children in poverty wages now it's a tiny thing ten years ago i don't talk of that there's the fraud in failing universal credit disabled people risk losing their homes on vital supports children forced to use food banks called been slammed a litany of post lehman austerity policies he accused a pm who seeks to malign journalists as the tea of burning britain down the prime minister is not easy not challenging the beauty and justice is in our society

she's pouring through on the crisis when will she start and thank you there's a ring i want to think this kind of the prime minister replied by way of identity politics before slamming t.v. journalists and then using blairite war supporting impeach aka to imply corbin was racist what have we seen from labor over the past few days every year in state t.v. broadcasting no problem was. police investigating an anonymous and threatening letters about the diesel election of labor m.p. . the same sunday of the honorable member for the stress of saying that the neighbor is now in a state to send out a racist. sunday but just think if he didn't do this the time would cool bit and turn britain into a racist country or is the media blaming tories i'm

a not just terrified about her own political survival you decide that's it for the show on monday we cover what used to be called the nuclear standoff in kashmir as well as go to brixton in south london to investigate the night an eighty's legacy united behind to raise a maze with drugs scandal till then keep in touch by social media with you know my big anniversary of the creation of the occupy wall street movement it's because he bought new york which would spread all around the world. because the swarms of them so much. good news was before. much of those who heard the food you are. seeing we will. go. but he. will show you the snoopy view of the world will

believe you look very good or. more muslim also his goals will be do with guns per go good girls. don't go to school so look i do assume you belong to show your story to go. to starbucks to take it to you to fill it with the little blue mist. you look at israel. jim stashed no distance just need to mash told. mr president please contribute more to continue. to be of interest to greatness were to snap them up and do it because that was the girls who were your supporters to your shoes vision shouldn't be you should could do for one who's doing the.

cool. maximizer financial survival guide stacey let's learn us out fill out let's say i'm not so i get an earpiece andris on base of the fight wall street fraud thank you for helping. destroy that's right. that's slavery.

the. world anti-doping watchdog says that it will discuss reinstating the russian antidoping agency as a member after suspended in two and fifteen amid claims of state sponsored cheating . more than half of the french people polled say that the u.s. is no longer a trusted ally as president micron prefers to cozy up to trump one small or out of an official visit. the day four of russia's largest military drills in decades is the focus of the exercises in the country's far east from land to sea.