political process because if it were the politicians the state that lobbied for that what do you make of this very tight association between state and religious affairs first of all i should explain what fully means because not everyone would understand how to sinfully in course of the tradition means independence the orthodox church unlike the roman catholic church consists of fully independent local churches they are not subordinate to one and there is no single here do of this churches except for jesus christ himself and yet from what i understand the constantin ople church gay does claim divide of determining which church is supposed to be independent and which is not yes exactly as a pitcher of constantinople it's as if he were the pope for the course of the church but it has not been the traditional of the horse of the exchange to have such group and we do not recognize the rights of the preacher of consent in opal to

. gary bring you back to my initial question about constantinople granting this ride of autocephaly to ukraine not the ukrainian church but actually to ukraine as a state because this is what we actually discussing at this point of time ukraine does not have. a united religious organization that can claim that document for itself it's more a political necessity for the current elites what do you make of it and the reason i'm asking is because in most democratic liberal societies. the separation between church and state is unquestionable and yet it's not the case for ukraine. in the ukraine there is one canonical ukrainian church it is the ukrainian orthodox church . which is recognized by all orthodox churches as canonical it

twelve thousand parishes more than two hundred monasteries and millions of. and there are also two non-canonical groups which were called schismatic groups which are not recognized by any of the orthodox churches. it is this schismatic groups which are supposed to constitute the basis on which constantine ople wants to be able to build this outer surface church and it is a political project because it is a project instigated by as a current ukrainian political authorities they want to create a united church or for churches the canonical orthodox church the two schismatic groups and also the greek catholic church which belongs to the pope of rome this moment for an independent ukrainian church started back in the nineteen ninety s. and baghdad and its supporters are pretty open about wanting a schism

a political schism a religious schism but i think present person cut deep change a tactic a little bit and he presents it as him striving towards the unity of the ukrainian faithful i'm sure you dislike it but don't you think that it's a clever tactic for him we certainly like the idea of the unity of the church and we certainly dislike schisms but the broken silly asian between schismatics and the canonical church. should go through. the process which we call repentance and it is not repentance in the sense. in which we use this word for example when we talk about. personal life about morality and so on it's a canonical term the return of mights a group into the body of the church. is done through the

recognition of the fault of the schism in this case it is actually the schism which is good and to be the basis for the outer surface church and it will not be recognized by the majority of the orthodox face while in the ukraine so it is on the one hand it is the desire for unity which is proclaimed as a hint it is impossibility to achieve this unity by these months that's what we usually call politics it's only applied to they really just fear now the constantinople patriarchate is determined to proceed it just dispatched you know it's an invoice to ukraine to prepare for the granting of autocephaly and i wonder if you could lead us through this process i wonder if there is any task that the church needs to pass in order to be recognized and in this particular case since we're dealing with different communities religious communities i mean are they supposed to be united first or the constantinople arcade is going to issue

this really just license and do the church building later in order for the church to become outer surface it should receive a special document in which is this out of self really is proclaimed and is recognized now as the canonical orthodox church in the ukraine did not ask for such a tours and even if it is given such a document it will not accept it. the promise of how to safely can not be addressed to whom it may concern it is always addressed to a particular person who is in charge of a particular church so before granting as these storms of how to safely they need to find a person who will be considerate of the church there is no such person at the moment there are. groups each of which is headed by

a pretty clear person they are not in good relations with one another so even to unite as these two groups into one is already a problem so essentially we are talking about the granting of these other subtly to an idea of a ukrainian united to ukrainian church rather than the actual religious institution that is based on the ground well i am not sure how as a preacher kate of constantinople is going to proceed because i do not see any possibility of the moment. for the orse of the of the ukraine being united in acceptance of such and they'd see it on the twenty they would even care about being united i think for the time being they're fine with whatever followers they have. well i think this separation is very deep it exists it has existed for already a quarter of a century and those are is always a possibility to heal this schism. this needs

a certain process last year in december of the so called key of filleted in the center actually appealed to the. kid for recognition and also there were some words which can be interpreted as repentance so it could be a starting point for reconciliation but on the following day after this appeal he had to denounce all that he said in his letter addressed to the preacher of moscow and i suppose it was the ukrainian state which simply forbit him to go in this direction and instead insisted that he should go in the direction of constantinople now so much of this dispute is about politics and legal matters who has the right to do what to home but i want to ask you specifically about religious values because depression government betrays itself as a neo liberal government which comes with

a certain sound of values on same sex marriage on abortion on the rights of the fetus and so on. is that something that this new ukrainian church that is supposedly being built at the moment going to support doctrinally do you think there is enough support for that and more of the parishes in ukraine well i think certainly if this church is created on the basis of the schismatic groups it will. propagate the norms which will go in the direction of liberalizations of morality already we hear from the preacher of kit of constantinople that. admitted the second marriage. for the clergy it is something which goes contrary to the canons of the communicable councils and it is something which will not be accepted by any of the church so we already see of this kind of modern the

liberal tendency in the preacher gate of concern to normal and they will not be surprised if the same tendencies we will also see in the so-called forced church once it is created by consent in opal in the ukraine and you mention repentance previously as a path to reconciliation but i've also heard the supporters of the ukrainian autocephaly advance. of pastoral care argument they they say that the people who belong to those breakaway a religious communities need to be put at the center of the process and that if they die now they are supposed to go to how but if their church is ever eckerd nies by the rest of the orthodox community that would allow them to impart divine grace and offer a path to salvation do you see any merit to that argument that people indeed should be at the center of all of this the way you presented it is

a little bit simplified the sitting there argument the mentor is somewhat more complicated. very often when people hear about these disputes they only hear the words territory as if we dispute about a particular theory sorry but it is not the territory which matters but the people and. the pastoral care is what the church is a boat and what the church is for. but the problem is that the schism is in the church terms is something which is invalid for the bus to say that for example the sacraments. which are administered by the schismatics they are not valid because they are void of the divide of the divine grace and this is why we are equally concerned about the fate of those who belong to the schismatic groups

and we made many attempts to heal this wound but the problem with the political try to merge the purely ecclesiastical issue with their political interests and they intervene into internal life of the church not even of that process goes ahead be ukrainian orthodox church of the mosque and patriarch it is still going to be the largest religious institution in ukraine as you mentioned it has more than wealth thousand parishes and two hundred monastery set up country what do you have to fear wouldn't true faith triumph anyway. the true face will triumph anyway but the true face may triumph in different ways for example in the name twenty's and in the one nine hundred thirty s. the true face triumphed through the feet of the martyrs the priests were killed executed imprisoned the face for were treated in the same way as the churches were

destroyed but the face trail because it was the age of martyrdom we fear that if this. so cold out of self-will is proclaimed the ukrainian government will insist that all the orthodox jews belong to this new for all the other chair i'm known for let me stop you right here we have to take a very short break but we will be back in just a few moments. join me every thursday on the alex simon chill and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then.

in twenty four you know bloody revolution. demonstrations going to be relatively peaceful political protests to be violent revolution is always spontaneous. is it still here. put me in the new believe that i knew pulling needed all of the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty four g. and. those who took. this to do over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other it will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. church

to expand its role within the society what is the difference between how state political and religious matters a intertwined in russia and how they are mixed up in ukraine i can tell you what's the difference if for example president will decide that all christians in the russian federation should belong to the russian orthodox church and if he would say that the roman catholic church in russia. is no longer welcome you should join the russian national church if you are patriots then it will be a clear intervention into. the internal life was the church's or if for example president puts in. would dictate who should be or who should we lift as bishops this will be the intervention such intervention. in the bill. now both russia

and ukraine trace their history from kiev on the loose reaches i thing an interesting title because it merges together the concepts of geography and identity and for most good younger fi has always been trans indian secondary but not so much for constantin opal and key of for consumption opal for example its whole supremacy claim is based on the fact that the orthodox christianity was born in geographic locale and i think the ukrainians advancing a similar argument that. christians christians were there before moscow was even found it and why should it has it have any demeaning and over us what's your response to that. i should underline that there is ness in the bed in the fully itself the russian orthodox church at some point was a part of the gate of constantinople then. it became an outer surface church

and they didn't ask for their consent and opal permission i didn't ask for the permission of constantinople because at that time the preacher called constance you know paul was in the union was wrong which according to the russian church was a here is it so the preacher core of constance in op was a heretic there was no one to ask listen from. the cephalic by itself there is nothing bad in the it but the problem for the ukraine currently is that it is not the ukrainian orthodox church of the united to crane in north of the church would swear an oath to say for me it is that the majority of the course of the faithful are against their families they want to stay united with the russian church but the schismatic groups on purely political grounds are asking for out a sinfully through which they want to legitimize themselves and.

birth along with you of constantinople seem to be responsive to those arguments up until a certain point of time what do you think changed in his understanding of the problem problem because as i mentioned before the this movement for an independent ukrainian church has been going on since the early one nine ninety s but it is only now that he is all of a sudden change his mind on the issue it's not quite all of a sudden of course there was something which stopped him from decisive. action moves actions and what is that this was the plan or so those council which was supposed to take place in two thousand and sixteen. finally it turned out. to be not quite the planned course of the council because for georges did not participate including the russian orthodox jew just to get an offense is that where he was very offended and moreover he even believed he told

this to me personally for example he even believed that it was the russian orthodox church which plotted with three churches not to go to this conversation if that was the case is that sufficient enough reason to authorize the kind of changes that we are discussing today which can cause a major schism within the whole orthodox community first of all. this was not the case. but he doesn't believe that this was months the case. secondly of course. this is not a sufficient ground for in the clear let me answer for interrupting but do you think it's purely personal grievance that is driving such a man to change it is not only purely personal grievance but there is this element and this element was very clear when i met was. also when peter berthold in the

met with a preacher q to you it was very clear that he was personally wounded and that he was personally orphaned and that he blamed the russian orthodox church for. the the lack of success in the council of crete now the relationship between a mosque in constantinople was never particularly small i think most external observers agree that there is a bit of a power contest going on between patriarch ariel who is presiding over the largest and the wealthiest orthodox congregation and pay chart bartholomew who oversees a relatively small parish in a predominantly muslim country and yet claims a commanding. global powers do you indeed think there is a power contest going on between the two no i do not think so but i see from history referred to the one nine hundred twenty s. when the pitcher kid of constantinople supported schism within the russian orthodox

church and they see from history is that the patriarch of constantinople very often treat this relationship in this way when there was the russian orthodox church finds itself in a difficult situation instead of helping the church which one may expect from someone who pretends to be. of the interest of the city it is so instead of helping he does the sins which actually destroy the unity between the churches in the statement that the russian orthodox church issued in response to the a decision lately it used a very strong i would even say very irreverent language it's adjusted. the patriarch indeed wants to be as you say the orthodox spoke and that it will have to answer before god in history for this decision does the russian orthodox church

recognise the ecumenical status of constantinople and if so does this reckon recognition dependent on the political decisions that the leader of the current leader of consenting double takes we do not recognize in the primacy of jurisdiction. we recognize the primacy of foreigner which means that the pitcher of constantinople. is first someone tea quolls in the family or source of the churches but he has no right to intrude into another church he has no right to intervene into the affairs of churches he may if we wish cords in the certain the see if it is of all the orthodox churches but it is we the churches who trust him with this rule and if he acts contrary to the

opinion of the percy cuellar church we cannot accept that the russian orthodox church also accused the constantinople petrarch it of wanting to start a war against the unity of the orthodox christian church and it said that if the ukrainian autocephaly is granted you're going to stop communicating communication of with with constantin ople by doing that one won't hear factor of only. fuel doubt or even more because you would effectively have to tie your cut your ties with other churches some of the churches have to decide whether to side with you or with constant within that make things even worse first of all we do not need to cut ties with other churches if we cut the ties with constantinople there are situations in which two churches are not in communion with one another but. are in communion with both of them and this is what is likely to happen but in

canonical terms we will have no option because we cannot accept in the. such action on the part of constance in opal we will have to respond in this way and we are already a warrant several times over news that this will be one of the can sequence of. actions is he supposed to announce his final decision i mean in a formal way i think somewhere in the fall do you think it's also now are we already beyond the point of no return or do you still hope hold out hope that something may be decided in a mutually acceptable way. project because as i said the nickel shores didn't ask for all to say for me that those groups are not in the union was one another and there is no clear perspective of even them being united then there is a few cure all for the so-called. who will not accept any sinclair. and their

human speech or so there are many complications on the way. but we shall see how it goes oh your eminence i really appreciate your time today thank you very much for answering our questions thank you i'm going to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on all the part. two thirds of american host schools do not have five hundred dollars in

emergency care. crispe. population doesn't have money and money maintaining thirteen aircraft carriers around the room why why did you change your policies and do something that is good. for the legacy. and good filmmaker in the long route. prosecution will need to become almost. a softball designed to take over you know push ups off the threat of fines can also buy the number one place you do i mean yard me political pressure on that god you've landed him in cold blood to know through security genocide knows when to pull your bundled up business models used by american corporations jackals was incomplete please sold them could matilda's you to use some controls on the scene. the solution. is up an association.

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