ukraine not the ukrainian choice but actually to ukraine as a state because this is what we actually discussing at this point of time ukraine does not have. a united religious organization can claim that a document for itself it's more a political necessity for the current elites what do you make of it and the reason i'm asking is because in most democratic liberal societies. that this separation between church and state is unquestionable and yet it's not the case for ukraine. in the ukraine there is one canonical ukrainian church it is the ukrainian orthodox church. which is recognized by all orthodox churches as canonical it twelve thousand parishes more than two hundred monasteries and millions of. and there are also two non-canonical groups which were called schismatic groups which are not recognized by any of the orthodox churches.

it is this schismatic groups which are supposed to constitute the basis on which constantine or paul wants to be able to build this out of surface church and it is a political project because it is a project instigated by as a current ukrainian political authorities they want to create a united church or for churches the canonical orthodox church the two schismatic groups and also the greek catholic church which belongs to the pope of rome this moment for an independent ukrainian church started back in the nineteen nineties and baghdad and its supporters are pretty open about wanting a schism a political schism a religious schism but i think president bush on cut deep change a tactic a little bit and he presents it as him striving towards the unity of the ukrainian faithful i'm sure you dislike it but don't you think that it's

a clever tactic for him we certainly like the idea of the unity of the church and we certainly dislike schisms but the broken silly asian between schismatics and the canonical church. should go through. the process which we call repentance and it is not repentance in the sense. in which we use this word for example when we talk about. thorson alive about morality and so on it's a canonical term the return of group into is the body of the church. is done through the recognition of the fault of the schism in this case it is actually the schism which is good and to be the basis for the outer surface church and it will not be recognized by the majority of the orthodox faithful in the ukraine so it is on the one hand it is the desire for unity

which is proclaimed on zazzle hint it is impossibility to achieve this unity by these months that's what we usually call politics it's only applied to they really just fear now the constantinople patriarchate is determined to proceed it just dispatched you know it's an invoice to ukraine to prepare for the granting of a sufferer and i wonder if you could lead us through this process i wonder if there is any task that the church needs to pass in order to be a recognised and in this particular case since we're dealing with different communities religious communities i mean are they supposed to be united first or the constantinople arcade is going to issue this really just license and do the church building later in order for a church to become outer surface it should receive a special document in which is this outer self really is proclaimed and is

recognised now as the canonical orthodox church in the ukraine did not ask for such a tours and even if it is given such a document it will not accept its. promise of how to surf a lick and not be addressed to whom it may concern it is always addressed to a particular person who is in charge of a persecutor church so before granting of these terms of how to surf. they need to find a person who will be considerate of the church there is no such person at the moment there are. groups each of which is headed by a pretty close to go to how but if their church is ever eckerd nies by the vast of the orthodox community that would allow them to impart divine grace and offer a path to salvation do you see any merit to that argument that people indeed should

be at the center of all of this the way you presented it is a little bit simplified. sitting there argument the matter is somewhat more complicated. very often when people hear about these disputes they only hear the words territory as if we dispute about particularly territory but it is not the territory which matters but the people and. the pastoral care is what the church is about and what the church is for. but the problem is that the schism is in the church terms is something which is invalid for the pastoral for example the sacraments which are administered by the schismatics they are not valid because they are void of the divide of the divine grace and this is why we are equally concerned about the fate of those who

belong to the schismatic groups and we made many attempts to heal this wound but the problem with the political try to merge the purely ecclesiastical issue with their political interests and they intervene into internal life of the church even of that process goes ahead the ukrainian orthodox church of the patriarch it is still going to be the largest religious institution in ukraine as you mentioned it has more than wealth thousand parishes and two hundred mana strace in that country what do you have to fear one true faith triumph anyway. the true face will triumph anyway but the true face may triumph in different ways for example in the ninth twentieth and in the one nine hundred thirty s. the true face triumphant through the feet of the martyrs the priests were killed

executed imprisoned the face full where treated in the same way as the churches were destroyed but the face trial because it was the age of them we fear that if. so-called out of seventy is proclaimed the ukrainian government will insist that all the orthodox shuls belong to this new uniform i am now flood me stop you right here we have to take a very short break but we'll be back in just a few moments. you know world of big partisan law and conspiracy it's time to wake up to

dig deeper to hit the stories that made stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smart we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. i've been saying the numbers mean something they matter the u.s. has over one trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crime tamping he did. eat five percent of global wealth you long to be ultra rich with six percent. markets on thirty percent this one is your home with four hundred five when the expect anything we can expect that this is my tics will take control over major more on the streets like key would be chance like but. then of course the

orthodox face will defend the secret police so we can expect bloodshed and present pressure to house lots of power in that country but certainly that power is also limited. at least by the way he's presented in the western media one that does something that would constrain any. such scenarios that you just laid out before us well if president. where are these type of more liberal secular police he wouldn't have intervened into the affairs of the church i cannot imagine for example president trump say or so that's in the miraca that you have to be united into one jurisdiction and it should be in the miracle church and there should be no repeat

of. your imminence your opponents will immediately respond to that by pointing to a pretty harmonious relationship that exists between the russian orthodox church and the russian state with president putin being a practicing orthodox christian how being the church to expand its role within the society what is the difference between how state political and religious matters and intertwined in russia and how they are mixed up in ukraine i can tell you was the difference if for example president putin would decide that all christians in the russian federation should belong to the russian orthodox church and if you would say that the roman catholic church in russia. is no longer welcome you should join the russian national church if you are petri wants them it will be a clear intervention into the into the internal life or the churches or if for example president putin would dictate who should be or who should we lift as

bishops this will be the intervention such intervention is an image in the book in russia now both russia and ukraine trace their history from kievan rus reaches i thing an interesting title because it merges together the cons. of geography and identity and from moscow geography has always been transit and secondary but not so much for constantin opel and kia for consumption opel for example its whole supremacy claim is based on the fact that the orthodox christianity was born. geographic locale and i think the ukrainians advancing a similar argument that. christians christians were there before moscow was event found it and why should than it has it have any demeaning and over us what's your response to that. should underline that there is no single bed in the early itself the russian orthodox church at some point was

a part of the nature of constantinople them. it became without a surface church and it didn't ask for their consent and opal permission then i didn't ask for the permission of constantinople because that the preacher called for instance you know paul was in the union was wrong which according to the russian church was here is so the preacher core of consent in op was a hear a tick there was no one to ask listen from. by itself there is nothing bad in the it but the problem for the ukraine currently is that it is not the ukrainian orthodox church of the united two crania north of the church will swear an oath to say for me it is. the maturity or the horse of the faithful against his they want to stay united with the russian church but this is mighty groups on purely political grounds asking for syphilis through which they

want to legitimize themselves and. birth along with you of constantinople seem to be responsive to those arguments up until a certain point of time what do you see. changed in his understanding of the problem problem because as i mentioned before the this movement for an independent ukrainian church has been going on since the early one thousand nine hundred but it is only now that he is all of a sudden change his mind on the issue it's not quite all of a sudden of course there was something which stopped him from decisive. moves actions and what is that this was the plan or so those council which was supposed to take place in two thousand and sixteen. finally it turned out. to be not quite the planned course of the council because for

georges did not participate including the russian orthodox church just to get an offense is that where he was very offended and moreover he even believed he told this to me personally for example he even believed that it was the russian orthodox church which plotted with three churches not to go to this count as even if that was the case is that sufficient enough reason to authorize the kind of changes that we are discussing today which can cause a major schism within the whole orthodox community first of all. this was not the case. but he doesn't believe that this was not the case. secondly of course. this is not a sufficient ground for in this clear let me i'm sorry for interrupting but do you think it's purely personal grievance that is driving such a man to change it is not only purely personal grievance but there is this element

and this element was very clear when i met with. and also when peter berthold the new met with the preacher cureall it was very clear that he was personally wounded and that he was personally. that and that he blamed the russian orthodox church for . the lack of success in the council of crete now the relationship between moscow and constantinople was never particularly small i think most external observers agree that there is a bit of a power contest going on that's been paid care real who's presiding over the largest and the wealthiest orthodox congregation and pay chart bartholomew who oversees a relatively small parish in a predominantly muslim country and yet claims a commanding global powers do you indeed think there is a power contest going on between the two no i do not think so but i see from

history referred to the one nine hundred twenty s. when the pitcher kit of constantinople supported schism was in the russian orthodox church and they see from history is that the patriarch of constantinople very often treat this relationship in this way when there was the russian orthodox church finds itself in a difficult situation instead of helping the church which one may expect from someone who pretends to be. of the into or so that succeeds it is so instead of helping he does the sins which actually destroy the unity between the churches in the statement that the russian orthodox church issued in response to the constant ennoble of decision lately it used a very strong i would even say very irreverent language it's adjusted. the patriarch indeed wants to be as you say the orthodox spoke and that it will have to

answer before god in history for this decision does the russian orthodox church recognise the ecumenical status of constantinople and if so does this reckon recognition dependent on the political. decisions that. the leader the current leader of consenting double takes we do not recognize primacy of jurisdiction. we recognize the primacy of foreigner which means that of constantinople. is first the monthly quolls in the family or source of the churches but he has no right to intrude into another church he has no right to intervene into the affairs of the churches he may if we wish cords in the certain the conceive it is of all the orthodox churches but it is we

the churches who trust him with this rule and if he contrary to the opinion of the percy cuellar church we cannot accept this now the russian orthodox church also accused the old patriarchate of wanting to start a war against the unity of the orthodox christian church and it said that if the ukrainian autocephaly is granted you're going to stop communicating communication of with with consenting ople by doing that one won't hear fact of. fuel doubt or even more because you would effectively have to tie your cut your ties with other churches some of the churches have a have to decide whether to side with you or with constant within that make things even worse first of all we do not need to cut ties with churches if we cut ties with constantinople there are situations in which two churches are not in communion with one another but. are in communion with both of them and this is what is

likely to happen but in canonical terms we will have no option because we cannot accept in the. such action on the part of constance in opal we. we'll have to respond in this way and we are already a warrant several times. that this will be one of the consequences of his actions is he supposed to announce his final decision i mean in a formal way i think somewhere in the fall do you think it's also now are we already beyond the point of no return or do you still hope hold out hope that something may be decided in the mutually acceptable way. that's our many uncertainties in the entire project because as i said the nickel shores didn't ask for all to say for this that those groups are not in the union with one another and

there is no clear perspective of even them being the united then there is a few cure all for the so-called feel that they have who will not accept any sinclair's then charge under him. so there are many complications on the way. but we shall see how it goes well your eminence i really appreciate your time today thank you very much for answering our questions thank you i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going and our social media pages hope to see you again same place same time here on all the part.

in twenty four you know bloody revolution of. the demonstrations going to be relatively peaceful protests to be. revolution is always spontaneous. is it still. i mean you know liz put video through in the new bill is that i mean you split needle the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty fourteen. of those who took coach clyde invested over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. politicians do something to. put themselves on the line to get accepted or rejected . so when you want to be president or injury. or something i want to be absolutely . have to be right to be cross as the wife of

a four three in the morning can't be good that i'm interested always in the water losing my house. this city may. join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see that.

in the stories that shaped the way the two russians accused of poisoning so it goes through powell and his door to speak exclusively to ati's editor in chief however it sends much of the media and many british politicians into overdrive saying the men's claims are a joke. also to come terrorists filmed scenes of a false flag chemical attack to send to the un post online that the discrediting is syrian government bus according to the russian military and donald trump signs a new executive order aiming to defend all future u.s. elections from foreign meddling less than two.