first vote then people don't have to accept the second vote then you have a third there's no into it. because we've decided once and that's enough once you had a referendum and it was more to leave interest i. know we don't need to. now that people understand what is actually going to cost the u.k. financially and commercially and i've always felt that the european market will collapse and it's better to be in it working your way out of it than leaving and letting someone else more popular bush. there's certainly room where there's the effort so i'm not sure we tried it a few years back just. like didn't seem to work but. i can't see the tory party how doing together for much longer so. i find the future very difficult to predict at the moment back in the early one nine

hundred eighty some thirty labor m.p.'s rally to the banner of the limehouse that clinician of the gang of four but the fledgling party could only attract but one fitting tory m.p. however they had their sights on attracting others among them i don't quite come in m.p. from can i mention you can classify directly now still in parliament lord radclyffe carnarvon tells alex what happens why he did jump ship and why the s.t.p. finally went i with all hands that's a welcome to the alexander i'm sure like very much indeed alex i want to take you back to the dawn of the one nine hundred eighty s. and the american self this new party led the social democratic party which your memories of that explosive political event well of course it wasn't events its own rights very different circumstances to those that exist no you had roy jenkins and surely williams reemerging into politics both surely lost the seats in one centenarian. jenkins was outside politics there was. a gap in the middle the center

ground was available thatcher was leading from the right and she of course was a very strong leader so there was no question of the conservative party pricking up the labor party being led by michael fortier was a lovely person but was regarded as being well to the left of a low not quite as far left as possibly but nonetheless there were unhappy people particularly in the labor party who were looking for a new home many of them of course under threat a similar background to what's happening today under set of being dyslexic in their own constituencies and that's where much of the support came from so you had an unpopular conservative government but a fragmented opposition not taking advantage of the government's unpopularity so that some of that they'd know you were a young member of parliament these days that the new s.t.p. make approaches to recruit you to the right well i did on one occasion i think it was known before i became leader of the party that i was a little unhappy with some of the directions as of my own party was going in but i

had never in me in my wildest imagination sort of joining them but i was approached by david owen who had rejected his overtures and well it was a very tentative overtures but i made one point to him i said i asked him whether the people who were standing down leaving the labor party and joining him would stand and fight by elections in their own constituencies and when he indicated no i thought the game was over because that is critical you've got to have the confidence that you have the support of your own constituents have they done that and had a mini general election perhaps twenty or thirty of them doing the same thing the same day and had they won a good number of those seats then that could have been very interesting indeed so there's to be enjoyed initially an alliance with the liberals fairly spectacular opinion poll ratings but then disappointed when it came to the actual general election winning lots of votes but very few seats yes well that's of course the reality of the electoral system that we have you go. to break through in

a big way and what we've succeeded doing was procuring what the s.n.p. and before you swept the whole of scotland you had strengths in certain areas in depths in the northeast in new york case in the north west in the southwest in our case and you can build up our credibility on a regional basis in the us to get over the threshold of the electoral system that we've got very difficult as things are now but of course we have now the backdrop of a different issue as well i mean to a large extent europe was the issue in the one nine hundred eighty s. but it's so in a different way now with the reality that we are there's been a vote to leave the european union and this does cut across parties so are you saying that that would give a flag behind which are around which the new center party could rally the european issue because neither the conservatives nor the labor party are particularly convincing or united on what is clear at the moment is

a lack of credible leadership for that to happen i'm not convinced that in the long term that is enough of a basis because you're going to have the left right division and all the rest the talk at westminster before the summer break was the possibility of having some all party government for a limited period of time of two years but once again there was nobody who's been named as the obvious leader of that sort of a movement and therefore because there isn't a strength of that sort i suspect it's not going to happen but let's just say for example let's say abolish johnson runs for the totally we will ship some point after the upcoming told of conference let's say that these labor m.p.'s are frightened of diesel action in their own constituents decide to jump ship wouldn't that be the exact circumstances because many conservatives are numbered at least i've said they wouldn't told johnson leadership of the party label m.p.'s may have nowhere to go isn't not the exact circumstances a center party could grab the initiative and the danger is that the likelihood is it will be exactly the same. in fact that they could jump ship they could have

a coherent block in the center for a limited period of time but when it comes to a general election they don't have the base on which to build and people having seen that happening once would probably foresee that happening again and that would undermine their credibility now that i personally believe that there is room for an agreement across party boundaries in the context of the outcome of the european negotiations but there needs also to be coherent leadership for that and unfortunately there's no sign of that happening from people leaving either of the two large parties finally the death of the you've led the minority party highly successfully but you have a fairly. selective and senses only a few of us a bit in that position insight into the challenges of leading a minority party or a new party been tell us a better but we don't put it's like in comparison with say the leading one of the the big the big guns from labor and tory well of course

a having not led one of the large parties is difficult to make the exact comparison but i would be pretty envious of the resources that the larger parties would have at the same time you have a greater coherence a small party and if you have a focus on a particular objective as the s.n.p. had in scotland in terms of super secure securing independence instead terms of becoming a governing party in your own parliament then that does give you a focus on which you can build which would s.n.p. has done successfully in scotland thanks very much to you and which by committee has done to a slightly lesser extent but going in the same direction in wales even in parliamentary. always struck me the who had been great figures of state like roy jenkins it was somehow surprised when the phoned in the third party bench they were subjected to the the holy bully that some of us were very used to well where they were squeezed to do squeezed between the. i did behind him and his kid in front of

. it was quite a challenge plate lollie if there are five hundred. of course in the house of commons you have the microphones a pick of voices and or your size are being made by you as m.p. implied or by dennis going to his colleagues were going to the same microphone and that really undermined dr jenkins they say that it lost him his confidence and is easy to be a king over seas as he certainly was in brussels and came back but is very much more difficult to read the grassroots which he had to do and perhaps didn't do all this successfully above a center part him absent in the next year yes or no. no in terms of a long term party yes possibly in terms of a coalition for a purpose in the european agenda within parliament that's what glick thank you so much. after the break we'll ask of juggling on the pro utopia right if there's any

pop just in that spectrum of politics for the new center party. ministries police forces and city administrations of many countries depend on one corporation that does my mike will still be on the board just going through the eyes of god i'm just going to come to nothing woods as that's either the duck on into the sea it's a must also applied to the proprietary software you don't know the source code isn't that a such a security risk when you have a black box operating in the public eye to microsoft dependency puts governments under a cyber threat and not only that. put more on. the office of the essence of the zoo selling the songs only one of them will still be willing to. put in this for the world with all of those. things and all

this in the arsenals of the home stipend on the old version stopped and it was listing all the rules a fund is up and describes in the fine. in a world of big partisan movies lot face and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that made stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's a target for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the. true the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. it's hard to imagine the decades after the war a nazi doctor was still active and rich in the nineteen seventies crittle had as

the chair of its board a man convicted of mass murder and slavery at auschwitz a german company going until it develops a little mind a drug that was promoted as completely safe even during pregnancy. it turned out to have terrible side effects what has happened to my baby anything. here she said is just cut short arms many so they don't mind victims have to this day received no compensation they never apologized for the suffering they're not only want the money i want the revenge. welcome back back in the one thousand eight hundred fifty p. failed to caddy many tory m.p.'s and to their ranks would be geffen any better today alex south columnist and former tory counter that michael fry michael this beautiful history of putative launches of new parties has that been all together

successful one well i think the very concept of a center party is too namby pamby really empty of content i mean all sides of politics they have a spectrum so in the you know on the conservative side you go from the sort of cuddly christian democrats of anger america all over to you know the populist movements the almost fascist movements that are rising in europe today on the left you go from you know from the duros venezuela over to the you know even more cuddly danish or swedish social democrats so every every political tendency has this spectrum from left to right. but everybody. every political tendency also has a you know some core some core ideology that moves it and on which it rests so just to be a centrist as such i don't think it fulfills this country i mean you just try can trying to take an average of everybody else i don't think is going to work but

isn't the one aspect which might be the key for success for the new center party and that is the european issue than the european issue which even many right wingers like yourself i'm deeply unhappy with the move against europe and might that pervade the gloom which can stick a scent of party together so what is the centrist position between leave and remain . there is no centrist position you can't be half in a half out what reason may want to be hop in and help out but the europeans won't have it so as i say i think centrism as such remains so devoid of content there's not going to work is not going to take off as a political philosophy but if a new party was launched this autumn early next year with substantial financial backing defections from both the labor party and the conservatives with a firmly prawle european platform and compassing the liberal democrats wouldn't

stand a prospect of success well thank you alex for that excellent description of the social democratic party which was ninety nine hundred eighty one and where did that go it went they went straight downhill and i don't know how they got straight out hell it went to where they were set in the opinion polls before it went downhill. well ok but is it real where is it no it's no longer exists if you don't have a central centrist party i mean you want it at least to have a life of say half a century in order to make some impact on british politics and i don't think that this centrism that's going around at the moment is capable is strong enough is it is firm enough in its believes to create such a prospect that what you're saying is as convinced right wing or even a pro european one you're not going to be attracted to the rights of the new center party i like properties which are full of men and women you know of guts and spirit and conviction and i don't think this new centrism fulfills those criteria michael fry thank you very much thank you alex one essential ingredient for

a center party would be the full cooperation of the existing party of the center which itself emerged in the days of the alliance between the old liberal party and the s.t.p. the liberal democrats the party leader vince cable started to conference by ruling out a new party alex that's form a liberal democrat presidential candidate lend or pick why the liberals are better than twice. but the. you have particular views on the potential for the american silver center but it was surely all of the the aga is correct all of the circumstances which would mean like we are actually happening before our eyes there are two driving forces at this and chanted conservative mainly roumain group in the left of the conservatives and a very disenchanted right in the labor party as well now as somewhere in the middle we've got the dems as well but the real driving force i would say is those individuals who feel that the conservatism they were simply aren't for them we've

seen this before that was how the end as the pm urged a long time ago and then really the lib dems were a product of a merger in themselves would have required a catalyst something like a successful balazs onsen assault on the to do with the sort of the require something like that to take people over the light it's like nuclear physics it needs an energy source to make the change now boris johnson could be that energy source because if he gets elected to the conservative party there's a whole bunch of conservatives no doubt dozens of them who will say this party is not for me at the same time you've got a disillusioned labor party which might then decide that the breakaway conservatives are close enough to their right wing views and labor to form some kind of a nucleus so yes you're right there needs to be a catalyst and that could work for both parties at once but of course this whole happened before if we go right back to the early one nine hundred eighty s. that parliamentary nucleus was formed some was thirty m.p.'s from the labor party

one from the conservative party but added to a dozen or so liberal at that time gave a substantial parliamentary wedge back in the one thousand eight hundred eighty one is that the sort of thing that could happen again it could then have to be to driving factors then number one massive disillusionment amongst the poll. blick with the old two major parties labor and conservative we are sort of into party politics at the moment and secondly it has to be driven by very forceful characters that's what we had with the s.t.p. and of course at that table and one nine hundred eighty we had four former cabinet ministers who were leading the charts up with roy jenkins david dorn shelley williams and bill rogers all well current public figures is there any one of that stature within the wings well there are people of that stature now you may remember the famous limehouse declaration not far from central london where they put their

story out and it was received positively by millions in the public but it would take those who haven't given up completely in their existing conservative and labor parties to make the move there's can clark maybe he wouldn't want to take this path from the conservatives you know hilary barrie and the other side but those individuals might be waiting for a change within the established party it's a long lonely walk into a new party when you've already got hundreds of years in the case of the conservatives and over a century in the case of labor to walk away from of course was another key ingredient back in the me to me it is and david steel a liberal party had a leader who was waiting for for that opportunity. this party were for it would not happen again david steele was clearly a third alternative i was in my teens and i remember thinking this is an impressive leader but the public liked him without voting for him they were still was popular

with the public but didn't command enough votes to make any real difference to the party's fortunes in this year in the current day there are two factors one the dems are languishing at single figures or sometimes ten percent in the polls so they're very small players in the public perception and secondly there's a big scar internally. from the coalition between the lib dems and the conservatives now that wasn't a merger but it served as a merger and threw the lib dems from fifty seven seats down to eight in the twenty fifteen election the activist base hasn't forgotten that but surely a formation of a new party and cooperation with the existing center party the liberal democrats is not the same thing as going into a coalition with the tories a wind chill of liberal activists or grassroots members of able to distinguish between our parliamentary governmental coalition and the americans of a new political force you're right a conservative lib alliance which becomes

a party isn't the same as a coalition it's worse because at this point not only are you in a marriage of convenience your marriage for the long term and if for example the numbers dictate that twenty or thirty conservatives join just twelve lib dems and who knows how many from labor the lived an activist base will say this is the end of us not least because for many the dems by the end of the coalition it was anathema and the party says we don't want to go anywhere near the conservatives if it was just labor as it was in the early one nine hundred eighty s. that's more tolerable the party is traditionally more left wing there's moved a little bit to the right because of nick clegg but that right wing agenda which is bound to come in with even left leaning conservatives is going to cause a massive rift and potentially potentially a step in the party itself surely a liberal activists point of view at the present moment of the party not moving in

the opinion polls much and a few local byelection successes but no sign of a breakthrough any pain coming soon the attractions of a major impetus for forming an alliance for an emergent center party of all the gloss and bubble that will give the public what have settler tractions when it would have a strong leader be able to carry the party with who could do that vince cable. from the labor side and wouldn't have much gravitas with a conservative based agenda he'd have to go to the right and secondly there are two options here the lib dems can wait and it can be a long wait it's been decades at times to be a liberal it's a function more of hope the next spectator and we're waiting is different to giving up if you join a conservative element which is bigger and it probably would be bigger than the lib dems if you're more or less saying we're going to go to the right whatever the labor party says we're going to go to the right the only thing the lib dems are likely to have in common with both the conservatives and the labor breakaway groups

is i remain agenda when it comes to the european union and that's not enough blue well but isn't that the the issue i mean even more so than the early one nine hundred eighty s. where there was disillusionment to major parties defections from the labor party in particular but disgruntled margaret thatcher in the tory state certainly among the voters at that time the no that has us all the raving issue as well the european the she wouldn't that be the glue which would stick this new center party together maybe for a while when it is over and it rains that dissolves the glue what happens in ten years time twenty years time the lib dems have sold their soul into this program and coalition or if you want to call it the party it will be a loose coalition but it's really a rainbow party and then you get the left and the right arguing and the lib dems somewhere trying to be the third point in a triangle it's down to the numbers the lib dems could absorb a couple of conservatives a couple of labor but then they want to carry on being called the lib dems if the name changes the lib dems go and

a couple of hundred years of tradition just get washed away the activist base probably wouldn't like that or the article and that they have your forecast as are going to be the emergence of a center party this autumn yes or no no not the sort i'm but next year there will be breakaways and bracks it goes through fascinating stuff thank you so much and thank you. and so as we have seen the prospect of a new center party has been greeted with crossed party ross buddies last week even ex prime minister tony blair ruled one note and that of itself may not be damning but it does provide the further indication there is none of the the buzz and expectation which greeted the launch of the s.d.p. way back in one thousand eighty one and yet so many of the ingredients for change are still there that is reportedly big finance for such an enterprise to labor m.p.'s have already resigned to whip even if no ship to jump on to many more might follow a successful tory leadership but by borders johnston might send up to

a dozen tories into the arms of a new party the liberals hostile for no could still be won over if there was a serious prospect of parliamentary relevance in the social media age or a real political force can break any electoral mold in two thousand and eleven the s.n.p. in scotland won an absolute majority of seats in a p.r. parliament and in twenty fifteen swept the other parties aside under first past the post in two thousand and sixteen donald trump defied the odds to seize the presidency through an electoral college and emanuel mcclellan followed suit under the french run or footing last year leading a new party of the center of such a variety of political revolutions under a variety of systems can sweep the boards and france america and scotland then why not in england and polling indicates the potential at least for mass support for

a new party born out of mass disillusionment with the come offerings europe could be the defining cause to galvanize opinion an issue fundamental enough to cleave political parties apart and leave a sufficient gap for the new party to flourish. as of know that energy has been devoted to the call for the people's vote cross party cooperation to soft the brakes at birth have it may be that only an election and therefore only a new party can truly break the europe logjam the one fact that is less propitious than one thousand eight hundred one back then there was an obvious leader in roy jenkins former home set to a former chancellor former european commissioner up even of david owen did not eventually find it quite so obvious that is no such figure today offend or out with politics and the folk that leadership this opportunity for a revolt from the center is likely to slip elusively by in these circumstances yes

the mindless things fall apart and the center cannot hold. and so in times to come this present talk the new scent of maybe the man but only for the number of inches it provided for jobless board the fighting desolate for columns about it. from me and the rest of the crew it's goodbye to my.

eldest son. mike. i said yesterday. and. so there was a building also up. in the him. well how about you. look . it up i. don't want the money i don't want. you to worry. about mr need. phone company when i don't want to they shuffle stem in with. the will there and we'll get a little war and then you know we'll see. a lot more. shall i do you so i don't fall for this i don't said that.

we want a strong european union based on strong member states. and we want a europe which takes fleece christian heritage so we're number one we don't want europe to get rid of the christian heritage and we want member states to all stay as member states we don't want off you know i'll give up our nationality you don't want to give up or called sure we don't blow you off for every three gentlemen for for. medical use downs to leak.

and when you. present that it would look at the distance was most of the book the but. it's cool stuff is that it's about seeing me yeah there's. just a little. i don't know. on.

me. i'm not i don't want. the. agency is set to hear its fate as the international body in charge. of. headlines this hour the confirmation hearing for president from supreme court. proving to be one of america's. drug dealers only. the.