i can't see the tory party how doing together for much longer so. following the future very difficult to predict at the moment back in the early one thousand eight hundred some thirty labor m.p.'s rallied to the banner of the limehouse that cooperation of the gang of four but the fledgling party could only attract but one fitting tory m.p. however they had their sights on attacking others among them i am quite calm the m.p. from kind i mentioned we can laugh at regularly now i still in parliament lord radclyffe carnarvon tells alex what happened why he did jump ship and why the s.t.p. finally went by with all hands that the welcome to the alex salmond chillax very much indeed alex i want to take you back to the dawn of the one nine hundred eighty s. and the imagines of this new party led the social democratic party which your memories of that explosive political event well of course it wasn't events its own rights very different circumstances to those that exist no you had roy jenkins and surely

williams reemerging into politics both surely lost the seats in one centenarian and of course jenkins was outside politics there was a gap in the middle the sent to ground was available starch or was leading from the right and she of course was a very strong leader so there was no question of the conservative party breaking up the labor party being led by michael fortier was a lovely person but was regarded as being well to the left of a low not quite as far left as possibly but nonetheless there were unhappy people particularly in the labor party who were looking for a new home many of them of course under sarette similar background to what's happening today under set of being dyslexic in their own constituencies and that's where much of the support came from so you have an unpopular conservative government but a fragmented opposition not taking advantage of the government's unpopularity so that's similar to they know you were

a young member of parliament these days that the new s.t.p. make approaches to recruit you to the right but i did on one occasion at. it was known before i became leader of the party that i was a little unhappy with some of the directions as my own party was going in but i had never in me in my wildest imagination thought of joining them but i was approached by david owen who had rejected his overtures and well it was a very tentative overtures but i made one point to him i said i asked him whether the people who are standing down leaving the labor party and joining him would stand and fight by elections in their own constituencies and when he indicated no i thought the game was over because that is critical you've got to have the confidence that you have the support of your own constituents have they done that and had a mini general election perhaps twenty or thirty of them doing the same thing the same day and had they won a good number of those seats then that could have been very interesting indeed so there's to be enjoyed initially an alliance with liberals fairly spectacular

opinion poll ratings but then disappointed when it came to the actual general election winning lots of votes but very few seats yes well that's of course the reality of the electoral system that we have you got to break through in a big way and what we've succeeded doing in wales procurer what the s.n.p. and before you swept the whole of scotland you had strengths in certain areas in depths in the northeast in new york case in the north west in the southwest in our case and you can build up a credibility on a regional basis in the us to get over that threshold of the electoral system that we've got very difficult as things are now but of course we have now the backdrop of a different issue as well i mean to a large extent europe was the issue in the one nine hundred eighty s. but it's so different where you know with the reality that we are there's been a vote to leave the european union and this does cut across parties so are you saying that that would give

a flag behind which are around which the new center party could rally the european issue because. neither the conservatives nor the labor party are particularly convincing or united on what is clear at the moment is a lack of credible leadership for that to happen i'm not convinced that in the long term that is enough of a basis because you're going to have the left right division and all the rest the talk at westminster before the summer break was the possibility of having some all party government for a limited period of time of two years but once again there was nobody who was being named as the obviously did all of that sort of a movement and therefore because there isn't a strength of that sort i suspect it's not going to happen but let's just say for example let's say abolish johnson runs for the totally legal ship some point after the upcoming told a conference let's say that these labor m.p.'s are frightened of diesel action in their own constituents decide to jump ship wouldn't that be the exact circumstances because many conservatives are numbered at least i've said they wouldn't told

johnson leadership of the party label m.p.'s may have nowhere to go isn't not the exact circumstances a center party could grab the initiative and the danger is of the likelihood is it to be exactly the same fate that they could jump ship they could have a coherent block in the center for a limited period of time but when it comes to a general election they don't have the base on which to build and people having seen that happening once would probably foresee that happening again and that would undermine their credibility now that i personally believe that there is room for an agreement across party boundaries in the context of the outcome of the european negotiations but there needs also to be coherent leadership for that and unfortunately there's no sign of that happening from people leaving either of the two large parties finally the death of the you've led the minority party highly successfully but you have a fairly. selective and senses only a few of us a bit in that position insight into the challenges of leading a minority party or

a new party been tell us a bit of but we don't put it's like in compile. some would say the leading one of the the big the big guns from labor and tory well of course a having not led one of the large parties is difficult to make the exact comparison but i would be pretty envious of the resources that the larger parties would have at the same time you have a greater coherence a small party and if you have a focus on a particular objective as the s.n.p. had in scotland in terms of cities securing independence instead terms of becoming a governing party in your own parliament then that does give you a focus on what you can build which is the s.n.p. has done successfully in scotland thanks very much to you and which by committee has done to a slightly lesser extent but going in the same direction in wales you and parliamentary. always struck me the who had been great figures of state like roy jenkins it was somehow surprised when the phone in the third party bench they were

subjected to the the holy bully that some of us were very used to well where they were squeezed to do can squeeze between the s.n.p. implied behind him and that is kid in front of them it was quite a challenge plate lollie if there are five hundred. of course. you have the microphones a pick of voices and or your size are being made by you as m.p. implied or by dennis going to his colleagues were going to the same microphone and that really undermined roy jenkins they say that it lost him his confidence and is easy to be a king overseas as he certainly was in brussels and came back but is very much more difficult to reach the grassroots which he had to do and perhaps didn't do all this successfully. so a center part him absent in the next year yes or no. no in terms of a long term party yes possibly in terms of a coalition for

a purpose in the european agenda within paul. and that's why quick thank you so much. after the break we'll ask of juggle us on the pro you got to feel right at the sammy pup just and that spectrum of politics for the new scent of. the big. ministries police forces and city administrations of many countries depend on one corporation that does my mike was hoping to avoid doesn't fall from the eyes of god i'm stunned just adama's how the gun to the woods as that he did it on into the sea it's a must also apply been proprietary software you don't know this whole cult isn't that a such a security risk when you have a black box operating in the public eye to microsoft dependency puts governments on

to cyber threat not only that think office can put more banks will close all facilities listen this is selling this last little one woke them to will still be going to almost like the old mr warden's all of those. things this is the i still. don't miss the old vision stopping there was a sting of uncle's a fund is up and his cards on the fine. i've been saying the numbers mean some big matter the u.s. has over one trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crimes have been each day. eighty five percent of global wealth you long for the ultra rich eight point six percent market saw thirty percent for its last year some with four hundred to five hundred treat her stricken first second and bitcoin rose to twenty

thousand dollars. china's building two. point one billion dollar ai industrial park but don't let the numbers overwhelm. the only numbers you need remember in one one show you know for two minutes the one and only boom box. welcome back back in the one thousand eight hundred fifty p. failed to carry many tory m.p.'s into their ranks. would be getting any better today alex out columnist and former tory counter that micro fried michael there's been a fair history of putative launches of new parties as that been all together successful one well i think the very concept of

a center party it is too namby pamby and really empty of content i mean all the signs of politics they have a spectrum so in the you know on the conservative side you go from the sort of cuddly christian democrats of anger americal over to you know the populist movements the almost fascist movements that are rising in europe today on the left you go from you know from the duros venezuela over to the you know even more cuddly danish or swedish social democrat so every every political tendency has this spectrum from left to right. but every but every political tendency also has to go some core some core ideology or that moves it and on which it rests so just to be a centrist as such i don't think it fulfills this country i mean you just try can try to take an average of everybody else i don't think is going to work but isn't there one aspect to snow which might be the key for success for the new center

party and that is the european issue that the european issue which even many right wingers like yourself and deeply unhappy with a move against europe and made that pervade the gloom which can stick a center party together so what is the centrist position between leave and remain. there is no centrist position you can't be half in a half out well the reason may want to be hop in and help out but the europeans won't have it so as i say i think centrism as such remains so devoid of content that is not going to work is not going to take off as a political philosophy but if a new party was launched that sort of alley next year with substantial financial backing defections from both the labor party and the conservatives with a firmly prawle european platform and compassing the liberal democrats wouldn't stand the prospect of success well thank you alex for that excellent description of the social democratic party which was launched in one hundred eighty one and where

did that go it went they went straight down hill and i don't know how they got it straight down hill it went to where they were set in the opinion polls before it went down hill. well ok but is it real where is it no it's no longer exists if you don't have a central centrist party i mean you want it at least to have a life of say half a century in order to make some impact on british politics and i don't think that this centrism that's going around at the moment is capable is strong enough is it is firm enough in its believes to create such a prospect that what you're saying is convince right wing or even the pro european ones you're not going to be attracted to the rights of the new center party i like parties which are full of men and women you know of guts and spirit and conviction and i don't think this new centrism fulfills those criteria michael fry thank you very much thank you alex why dissension created for the center party would be the full cooperation of the existing party of the center which itself emerged in the

days of the alliance between the old liberal party and the s.t.p. the liberal democrats the party leader vince cable started to conference by ruling out a new party alex that's why i'm a liberal democrat presidential candidate lend or pick why the liberals beckon twice shy but the. you have particular views on the potential for the american silver center but it was surely all of the the ugly is correct all of the circumstances which would make the lake we are actually happening before our eyes there are two driving forces this in chanted conservative mainly remain group in the left of the conservatives and a very disenchanted right in the labor party as well now as somewhere in the middle we've got the dems as well but the real driving force i would say is those individuals who feel the conservatism they were simply aren't for them we've seen this before that was how the end as the pm urged

a long time ago and then really the lib dems were a product of a merger in themselves would have required a catalyst something like a successful boris johnson assault on the to do with the sort of the require something like that to take people over the light it's like nuclear physics it needs an energy source to make the change now boris johnson could be that energy source because if he gets elected to the conservative party there's a whole bunch of conservatives no doubt dozens of them who will say this party is not for me at the same time you've got a disillusioned labor party which might then decide that the breakaway conservatives are close enough to their right wing views and labor to form some kind of a nucleus so yes you're right there needs to be a catalyst and that could work for both parties at once of course this whole happened before if we go right back to the early one nine hundred eighty s. that parliamentary nucleus was formed some was thirty m.p.'s from the labor party

and one from the conservative party but added to a dozen or so liberal that they gave a substantial parliamentary wedge back in the one thousand eight hundred eighty one is that the sort of thing that could happen again it could then have to be to driving factors then number one massive disillusionment amongst the power. blick with the old two major parties labor and conservative we are sort of into party politics at the moment and secondly it has to be driven by very forceful characters that's what we had with the s.t.p. and of course at that table and one nine hundred eighty we had four former cabinet ministers who were leading the charts up with roy jenkins david dorn shelley williams and bill rogers all well current public figures is there anyone of that stature within the wings well there are people of that stature now you may remember the famous limehouse declaration not far from central london where they put their store out and it was received positively by millions in the public but it would

take those who haven't given up completely in their existing conservative and labor parties to make the move there's can clark maybe he wouldn't want to take this path from the conservatives you know hilary barrie and the other side but those individuals might be waiting for a change within the established party it's a long lonely walk into a new party when you've already got hundreds of years in the case of the conservatives and over a century in the case of labor to walk away from of course was another key ingredient back in the way to me it is and david steele a little party had a leader who was waiting for for that opportunity. this party were for it would happen again david steele was clearly a third alternative i was in my teens and i remember thinking this is an impressive leader but the public liked him without voting for him they were still was popular

with the public but didn't command enough votes to make any real difference to the party's fortunes in this year in the current day there are two factors one the dems are languishing at single figures or sometimes ten percent in the polls so they're very small players in the public perception and secondly there's a big scar internally. from the coalition between the lib dems and the conservatives now that wasn't a merger but it served as a merger and through the lib dems some fifty seven seats down to eight in the twenty fifteen election the activist base hasn't forgotten that but surely a formation of a new party and cooperation with the existing center party the liberal democrats is not the same thing as going into a coalition with the tories a wind chill of liberal activists or grassroots members of able to distinguish between a parliamentary governmental coalition and the americans of a new political force you're right a conservative lib alliance which becomes

a party isn't the same as a coalition it's worse because at this point not only are you in a marriage of convenience your marriage for the long term and if for example the numbers dictate that twenty or thirty conservatives join just twelve lib dems and who knows how many from labor the lived an activist base will say this is the end of us not least because for many the dems by the end of the coalition it was anathema and the party says we don't want to go anywhere near the conservatives if it was just labor as it was in the early one nine hundred eighty s. that's more tolerable the party is traditionally more left wing there's moved a little bit to the right because of nick clegg but that right wing agenda which is bound to come in with even left leaning conservatives is going to cause a massive rift and potentially potentially stick in the party itself surely a liberal activists point of view at the present moment with the party not moving in the opinion polls much and a few local byelection successes but no sign of

a breakthrough any pain coming soon the attractions of a major impetus for forming an alliance for an emergent center party of all the gloss and bubble that would give the public what have settler tractions when it would have a strong leader be able to carry the party with a who could do that vince cable. as for the labor side and wouldn't have much gravitas with a conservative base to janet he'd have to go to the right and secondly there are two options here the lib dems can wait and it can be a long wait it's been decades at times to be a liberal it's a function more of hope the next back taishan we're waiting is different to giving up if you join a conservative element which is bigger and it probably would be bigger than that of dams you're more or less saying we're going to go to the right whatever the labor party says we're going to go to the right the only thing the lib dems are likely to have in common with both the conservatives and the labor breakaway groups is i remain agenda when it comes to the european union and that's not enough to live

well but isn't that the the issue i mean even more so than the early one nine hundred eighty s. where there was disillusionment with two major parties defections from the labor party in particular but disgruntled margaret thatcher in the tory state certainly among the voters at that time but know this as all the writing issue as well the european the she wouldn't that be the glue which would stick this new center party together maybe for a what all and so in times to come this present talk the new center party may be the man but only for the number of inches that provided for journalists border fighting desert for columns about but exit from just me that me and the rest of the crew it's goodbye but no.

and the list on. my side is that code my desk is it will not and. so there is a building also up. in the him a ride in a question about a lane i. look. under the hood of the look i. don't want out of the money i don't want to worry about. something that's really not. a mystery just. thrown. out of a shuffle stem and we have been. going the way there and you'll get

a little warmth and you know what. i'm going to. show what are the ages thought on this idol of the.

world anti-doping agency hopes to reinstate russia's own anti-drug sporty the decision signals a fresh start for russian athletics off to three years in the. also this hour an unconfirmed leaked memo circulating in the british press reveals plans within the prime minister's own party to who's in the running to fill the shoes. of the french quarter which is far right wing leader marine le pen to undergo a psychiatric examination after she published photos of myself.