they refuse on the idea of a new center party and a people thought i think there are rooms there's room for a lot of parties to be honest so yes but i don't really for me most of the people that i know they're not represented by any of the parties most of us just have our own opinions about different issues and ideologies tend to lock people in so yes because i would like to see more issue based parties and people just have an opinion on one thing and then you can get around that rather than a whole ideology that tries to put everyone in boxes with labels and sort of stop. the s.t.p. filed it doesn't mean that there's not room for someone to do it better than they did it was my clear that the first as i understand was going to be the vote you can't keep going back and saying. the same thing time and time again if you don't accept the first vote then people don't have to accept the second vote then you have a third there's no into it. because we've decided once and that's enough once

you had a referendum and it was more to leave interest i. know we don't need to. now that people understand what is actually going to cost the u.k. financially and commercially and i've always felt that the european market will collapse and it's better to be in a working your way out of it than leaving and letting someone else more popular bush. there's certainly room where there is the effort so i'm not sure we tried a few years back just. didn't seem to work but. i can't see the tory party how doing together for much longer so. following the future very difficult to predict at the moment back in the early one thousand eight hundred some thirty labor m.p.'s rallied to the banner of the limehouse that clinician of the gang of four but the fledgling party could only accept but one

fitting tory m.p. however they had their sights on attacking others among them i can't quite come the m.p. from can i venture you can categorically deny still in parliament largely of carnarvon tells alex what happened why he did jump ship and why the s.t.p. finally went by with all hands that the welcome to the alex salmond show like very much indeed alex i want to take you back to the dawn of the one nine hundred eighty s. and the imagines of this new party led the social democratic party what your memories of that explosive political event well of course it wasn't events its own rights very different circumstances of those that exist no you had roy jenkins and surely williams reemerging into politics both surely lost the seats in one centenarian and of course jenkins was outside politics there was a gap in the middle the center ground was available starch or was leading from the right and she of course was a very strong leader so there was no question of the conservative party breaking up

the labor party being led by michael fortier was a lovely person but was regarded as being well to the left of a low not quite as far left as possibly but nonetheless there were unhappy people particularly in the labor party who were looking for a new home many of them of course under stress at a similar background to what's happening today under set of being dyslexic in their own constituencies and that's where much of the support came from so you have an unpopular conservative government but a fragmented opposition not taking advantage of the government's unpopularity so that's similar to they know you were a young member of parliament these days that the new s.t.p. make approaches to recruit you to the right but i did on one occasion i. it was known before i became leader of the party that i was a little unhappy with some of the directions as my own party was going in but i had never in me in my wildest imagination thought of joining them but i was approached

by david owen who had rejected his overtures and well it was a very tentative overtures but i made one point to him i said that i asked him whether the people who were standing down leaving the labor party and joining him would stand and fight by elections in their own constituencies and when he indicated no i thought the game was over because that is critical you've got to have the confidence that you have the support of your own constituents have they done that and had a mini general election perhaps twenty or thirty of them doing the same thing the same day and have they won a good number of those seats then that could have been very interesting indeed so there's to be enjoyed initially an alliance with liberals fairly spectacular opinion poll ratings but then disappointed when it came to the actual general election winning lots of books but very few seats yes well that's of course the reality of the electoral system that we have got to break through in a big way and what we've succeeded doing in wales procurer with the s.n.p. and before you swept the whole of scotland you had strengths in certain areas in

depths in the northeast in new york case in the northwest in the southwest in our case and you can build up our credibility on a regional basis in the us to get over that threshold of the electoral system that we've got very difficult as things are now but of course we have now the backdrop of a different issue as well i mean to a large extent europe was the issue in the one nine hundred eighty s. but it's so different where you know with the reality that we are there's been a vote to leave the european union and this does cut across parties so you're saying that that would give a flag behind which are around which the new center party could rally the european issue because now. neither of the conservatives nor the labor party a particularly convincing all united on what is clear at the moment is a lack of credible leadership for that to happen i'm not convinced that in the long term that is enough of

a basis because you're going to have the left right division and all the rest the talk at westminster before the summer break was the possibility of having some all party government for a limited period of time of two years but once again there was nobody who was being named as the obvious leader of that sort of a movement and therefore because there isn't a strength of that sort i suspect it's not going to happen but let's just say for example let's say abolish johnston runs for the totally we will ship some point after the upcoming told a conference let's say that these labor m.p.'s are frightened of diesel action in their own constituents decide to jump ship wouldn't that be the exact circumstances because many conservatives are numbered at least i've said they wouldn't told johnson leadership of the party label m.p.'s may have nowhere to go isn't not the exact circumstances a center party could grab the initiative and the danger is of the likelihood is it to be exactly the same fate that they could jump ship they could have a coherent block in the center for a limited period of time but when it comes to

a general election they don't have the base on which to build and people having seen that happening once would probably foresee that happening again and that would undermine their credibility now that i personally believe that there is room for an agreement across party boundaries in the context of the outcome of the european negotiations but there needs also to be coherent leadership for that and unfortunately there's no sign of that happening from people leaving either of the two large parties finally the death of the you've led the minority party highly successfully but you have a fairly. selective and sensors only a few of us a bit in that position insight into the challenges of leading a minority party or a new party have been tell us a bit of but we don't put it's like in compile. some would say the leading one of the the big the big guns from labor and tory well of course a having not led one of the large parties is difficult to make the exact comparison but i would be pretty envious of the resources that the larger parties would have

at the same time you have a greater coherence a small party and if you have a focus on a particular objective as the s.n.p. had a discussion of the terms of says securing independence and instead terms of becoming a governing party in your own parliament then that does give you a focus on which you can build which is the s.n.p. has done successfully in scotland thanks very much to you and which committee has done. a slightly lesser extent but going in the same direction in wales you and parliamentary. always struck me the who had been great figures of state like roy jenkins it was somehow surprised when the phoned in the third party bench they were subjected to the the holy bully that some of us were very used to well when they were squeezed to do can squeeze between the s.n.p. implied behind him and then his kid in front of him. was quite a challenged the law if there are five hundred. of course in the house of commons

you have the microphones a pic of voices and all the asides are being made by you as m.p. implied or by dennis going to his colleagues were going to the same microphone and that really undermined roy jenkins they say that it lost him his confidence and is easy to be a king overseas as he certainly was in brussels and came back but is very much more difficult to read the grassroots which he had to do and perhaps didn't do all of us successfully. so a center part him absent in the next year yes or no. no in terms of a long term party yes possibly in terms of a coalition for a purpose in the european agenda within the. and that's why quick thank you so much . after the break we'll ask of juggling on the pool you to feel right at the semi pop just the nuts spectrum of politics for the new center party.

ministries police forces and city administrations of many countries depend on one corporation in the us but mike was hoping when the board doesn't implement the president's god i'm just going to guns not woods as the feet of the dog on him to see them must also apply them proprietary software you don't know the source code isn't that a such a security risk when you have a black box operating the public eye to microsoft dependency puts governments under a cyber threat and not only that he thinks office can put more on the close all facilities this is an easy sell missiles the only one of them will fall through almost the whole the soon the world was all of those. things and this is the

arsenals that often started on the old vision stopping the more sustainable homes a fund is up and describes in the fine. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race and his on off and spearing dramatic development only personally i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical of dying time to sit down and talk. and. i think we can agree that the decision to intervene in libya was perhaps too quickly taken but that was. we also know that the libya crisis today as we see it at least as i see it is a multifaceted crisis because it's a political crisis it's a security crisis and it's an economic crisis so i think the main problem of the

post twenty eleven transition was to put complete emphasis on the political process and not sufficient thought and strategy into the military dialogue or d.d.r. ceasar. completely forget the economic dimension of the crisis. in twenty four you know bloody revolution through to the demonstrations going from being peaceful political protests to be creasing the final. revolution is always spontaneous. is it you know or here i mean your list put pretty well it's really in the new bill is out of the new split needle the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty four g. . invested over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these another goal that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. welcome

back back in the one nine hundred eighty s. the f.t.p. fails to katty many tory m.p.'s into their ranks. would be getting any better today alex south columnist and former tory counter that michael fried michael there's been a fair history of putative launches of new parties has it been altogether successful one well i think the very concept of a center party is to namby pamby and really empty of content i mean all the sides of politics they have a spectrum so in the you're on the conservative side you go from the sort of cuddly christian democrats of anger america all over to you know the populist movements the almost fascist movements that are rising in europe today on the left you go from you know from the duros venezuela over to the you know even more cuddly

danish or swedish social democrat so every every political tendency has this spectrum from left to right. but every bit every political tendency also has to go some core some core ideology or that moves it and on which it rests so just to be a centrist as such i don't think it fulfills this country i mean you just try can try to take an average of everybody else i don't think is going to work but isn't there one aspect to snow which might be the key for success for the new center party and that is the european issues that the european issue which even many right wingers like yourself and deeply unhappy with the move against europe and made that pervade the gloom which can stick a center party together so what is the centrist position between leave and remain. there is no centrist position you can't be half in a half out what reason may want to be hop in and help out but the europeans won't have it so as i say i think centrism as such remains so devoid of content there's

not going to work is not going to take off as a political philosophy but if a new party was launched that sort of alley next year with substantial financial backing defections from both the labor party and the conservatives with a firmly prawle european platform and compassing the liberal democrats wouldn't stand the prospect of success well thank you alex for that excellent description of the social democratic party which was one thousand nine hundred eighty one and where did that go it went they went straight down hill and i don't know how they got it straight that hill it went to where they were set in the opinion polls before it went down hill. well ok but is it real where is it no it's no longer exists if you don't have a central centrist party i mean you want it at least to have a life of say half a century in order to make some impact on british politics and i don't think that this centrism that's going around at the moment is capable is strong enough is it

is firm enough in its believes to create such a prospect that what you're saying is as convinced right wing or even a pro european one you're not going to be attracted to the right so when you center party i like parties which are full of men and women you know of guts and spirit and conviction and i don't think this new centrism fulfills those criteria michael fry thank you very much thank you alex why dissension created for a center party would be the full cooperation of the existing party of the center which itself emerged in the days of the alliance between the old liberal party and the s.t.p. the liberal democrats the party leader vince cable started to conference by ruling out a new party alex out form a liberal democrat presidential candidate lend or pick why the liberals are better than twice shy. but you have particular views on the potential for the americans of a center party and surely all of the the aga is correct all of the circumstances

which would likely and actually happening before our eyes there are two driving forces at this and chanted conservative mainly remain group in the left of the conservatives and a very disenchanted right in the labor party as well now as somewhere in the middle we've got the dems as well but the real driving force i would say is those individuals who feel that the conservatives and labor simply aren't for them we've seen this before that was how the end as the pm urged a long time ago and then really the lib dems were a product of a merger in themselves would have required a catalyst something like a successful boris johnson assault on the to do with the sort of the require something like that to take people over the light it's like nuclear physics it needs an energy source to make the change now boris johnson could be that energy source because if he gets elected to the conservative party there's a whole bunch of conservatives no doubt dozens of them who will say this party is

not for me at the same time you've got a disillusioned labor party which might then decide that the breakaway conservatives are close enough to their right wing views and labor to form some kind of a nucleus so yes you're right there needs to be a catalyst and that could work for both parties at once of course this whole happened before if we go right back to the early one nine hundred eighty s. that parliamentary nucleus was formed some was thirty m.p.'s on the labor party and one from the conservative party but added to a dozen or so liberal that they gave a substantial parliamentary since the liberals at that time gave a substantial parliamentary wedge back in the one thousand nine hundred eighty one is that the so i think it could happen again it could. there have to be two driving factors then number one massive disillusionment amongst the public with the old two major parties labor and conservative we are sort of into party politics at the

moment and secondly it has to be driven by very forceful characters that's what we had with the s.t.p. and of course at that table and one nine hundred eighty we had four former cabinet ministers who were leading the charge up with roy jenkins david dorn shelley williams and bill rogers all well current public figures is there any one of that stature within the wings well there are people of that stature now you may remember the famous limehouse declaration not far from central london where they put their story out and it was received positively by millions in the public but it would take those who haven't given up completely in their existing conservative and labor parties to make the move there's can clark maybe he wouldn't want to take this path from the conservatives you know hilary barrie and the other side but those individuals might be waiting for a change within the established party it's a long lonely walk into a new party when you've already got hundreds of years in the case of the

conservatives and over a century in the case of labor to walk away from of course was another key ingredient back in the one nine hundred eighty s. and david steel the liberal party had a leader who was waiting for for that opportunity. this party were full it would happen again they would still it was clearly a third alternative i was in my teens and i remember thinking this is an impressive leader but the public liked him without voting for him they were still was popular with the public but didn't command enough votes to make any real difference to the party's fortunes in this year in the current day there are two factors one the dems are languishing at single figures or sometimes ten percent in the polls so they're very small player. as in the public perception and secondly there's a big scar internally from the coalition between the lib dems and the conservatives now that wasn't a merger but it served as

a merger and through the lib dems from fifty seven seats down to eight in the twenty fifteen election the activist base hasn't forgotten that but surely a formation of a new party and cooperation with the existing center party the liberal democrats is not the same thing as going into a coalition with the tories a wind chill of liberal activists or grassroots members of the able to distinguish between a parliamentary governmental coalition and the americans of a new political force you're right a conservative lib alliance which becomes a party isn't the same as a coalition it's worse because at this point not only are you in a marriage of convenience your marriage for the long term is idea where even with no ship to jump on to many more might follow a successful tory leadership but by borders johnson might send up to a dozen tories into the arms of a new party the liberals hostile for no could still be won over if there was

a serious prospect of parliamentary relevance in the social media age or a real political force can break any electoral mold in two thousand and eleven the s.n.p. in scotland won an absolute majority of seats in a p.r. parliament and in twenty fifteen swept the other parties aside under first past the post in two thousand and sixteen donald trump defied the odds to seize the presidency through an electoral college and emanuel mcclellan followed suit under the french runoff watering last year leading a new party of the center. if such a variety of political revolutions under a variety of systems can sweep the boards in france america and scotland then why not in england and polling indicates the potential at least for mass support for a new party born out of mass disillusionment with the come offerings europe could be the defining cause to galvanize opinion an issue fundamental enough to cleave

political parties apart and leave a sufficient gap for the new party to flourish. as of know that energy has been devoted to the call for the people's vote cross party cooperation to soft the brakes at birth have it may be that only an election and therefore only a new party can truly break the europe logjam the one fact that is less propitious than one thousand eight hundred one but then there was an obvious leader and roy jenkins former home set to a former chancellor former european commissioner up even of david owen did not eventually find it quite so obvious there is no such figure today offend or out with politics and the folk that leadership this opportunity for a revolt from the center is likely to slip elusively by and these suckers.