shevardnadze it's been seventy years western powers toppled to be a strongman moammar gadhafi live in the country and in tatters and unity in libya ever be reached again well i asked. the former deputy prime minister of libya. after the overthrow of moammar gadhafi libya still has no unified. militia. civilians. and several rival governments a powerless to stop the wave of chaos the pros of putting the country back together again even beginning what must happen for dozens of rival actors to come together and even as one nation. or the former deputy prime minister of libya welcome to the show great to have you with us lots going on in the country to libya's rival leaders prime minister fayyad iraj and general haile for half the hour have agreed to hold elections in december this is

a rabs now says that the situation is too unstable to hold a vote of france's a man mccall who meditate that the talk says elections should still be held as planned as they would help to stabilize and unify the country which side are you on . i am on the side of the libyan people i mean clearly it is there is a plan to have an election but of course the situation in the country today is not really favorable to that i mean there is really war going on in the east there is a lot of clashes around tripoli as has been for the last two or three weeks so this environment is not really suitable for any election that can be done where it would be a fair and free election for the libyan people country need to be stabilized first to be able to allow for any elections in the future elections it is not a magical thing that will solve the problem and even if we have election i don't

think the going to make a big difference today but so you may the idea is to stabilize libya before holding elections but how are you going to do that how how can you stabilize libya amel has been happening for the past few years. yes that's true i mean it is a very challenging situation because of the militias who they took over every part of the country i mean and they're out of the east the west the south they're everywhere and these militias they're getting support the u.s. military come back again to libya is it a good idea do you think that at some point there will have to be another interaction to bring this and less fighting to an end. i mean clearly there are some strikes against some. harsh presence in different parts of the country which is has been going on i mean it has been done to me regardless if you want to or not no clearly i don't want to see if serious military intervention in

the country but i want to see a serious political and economic intervention from the powers to be because all those militias clearly they have over the years they were able to make a lot of money and so their accounts they are not a libya they are overseas so they can be used clearly against them there and those people even if they see serious commitment from for example the united states since you mentioned that then i think there were those people who would be able to. hear to this pressure and they would be rightly willing to compromise and the come to solution where they will be able to get out from from the political arena getting out from the life of the people and just stay in their products until when the moment where they can be dismantled and been integrated in the in the in the big society so the twenty eleven revolutionaries as well as khadafi were politicians people loyal to general huffed aren't tribal leaders have recently launched

a libyan peace group initiative in tunisia how do you estimate the chances to and believe in crisis. i mean there is there is a lot of factions in libya i mean clearly i mean still have to raise is this to me is is one of those people who are causing this this problem and he had this problem by his campaign that started in two thousand and fourteen when he attacked bin ghazi and and and of course the time there is a group small group of people who are really they are a terrorist group but of course this campaign has gone on for four years and it did not do any good for the country itself i'm in the city mostly dismantled and also at the same time there is there is all these groups where they are clearly bear that to be able to overcome the problem that has today only peons have to join hands together let's join hunder stunt to revenge what taking place in two thousand and eleven or two thousand and fourteen will ever that is but to join hands so they

can work together to have a better future for themselves for their children for the grandchildren to general haftar who is libyan national army controls to east of the country and doesn't recognize the government in tripoli says that tripoli must be liberated he threatens to move on tripoli on the time is right if that is the case what is the point of all this peace talks groups for and mediations. i mean of course i mean i mean to have to conclude whatever he wanted but there's no such thing as general national army i mean this is his creation we have a libya if you go to defer to the how many people are really enlisted in the army there's a hundred thirty thousand of them have to doesn't have even a thousand of those people there so so he can claim whatever he want and everybody else force their claim of course you can see the spread good suppose attacking the tripoli also saying that they are another army there so so so all of this military

there is no military solution to the country there is no way have to not be able to go into tripoli the be able in those brigades out of tripoli will be to the side tripoli they are not going to be able to go to the east and of course live along the south which is right now there is a war raging between many different factions and there are also people from outside the country who they are there can you see a situation in which the government of national accord general haftar could reach a working consensus what shit they promised a half hour or so that he would agree to bring his army under control of the government in tripoli. first of all i don't think that the government in tripoli can do because they don't control much i mean clearly the only thing they have they have the international legitimacy which they have but the limb but the government in tripoli does not even have power of control on tripoli as a city alone for that alone about the whole east and the south part of the country so it is so to say that really the problem in libya is between mr soraya and have

to if they agreed and they resolve the problem i wish it was that simple but it is not and of course we know that have to reduce very clearly i mean the last week he came out and he mentioned that he does not believe in elections he only believe that the the military is the one who should rule the country and that's an acceptable to all of the libyan people. and so so there is no so there is no even a start a starting point and and so so if there is no agreement on a political way to solve this problem. nobody can sort of this approach to because there is no pollard in libya that is powerful enough to take over the country all of them don't spurn powers they can fight for ever and they did it really over the last four five years that's what they did they just kept fighting and fighting and fighting and nobody was able to win then i think the only thing we have from one of this is destruction of the country is the killing of the young people and their

innocent and the life of they became so miserable to come to because of all of that we're going to take a break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to. the former deputy prime minister of libya discussing the situation in the country seven years after the revolution. next as a financial survival god let's learn a salad fill out let's say i'm not sure i get. hungry stump bank of the fight

street strong thank you for. the story that's right. debt slavery. seemed wrong wrong wrong just don't call. me. to shape out this. you can stick to it and it. equals betrayal. she says to look for common ground. it's hard to imagine decades after the war a nazi doctor was still active rich in the nineteen seventies gruntal had as the

chair of its board a man convicted of mass murder and slavery ash was a german company developed for the denied a drug that was promoted as completely safe even during pregnancy. it turned out to have terrible side effects what has happened to my baby anything. you know she said is just. mimics a little mind victims who have to this day received compensation they never apologized for the suffering and not only want the money i want the revenge.

and we're back with. the former deputy prime minister of libya discussing whether libya's division can we overcome anytime soon so this son of moammar gadhafi saif al islam was willing to take part in libya's presidential election diplomats working on libyan peace talks a saif al islam is the symbol of a consolation for many libyans what's your take i mean does he have a or. well to play in the future of libya i mean i mean any any libyan has the right if they are not convicted in

a court to flow if they could not commit crimes against the country in the libyan have the right to participate in the political system in libya the country and for presidential the so for mr safely islam which i don't know exactly what he is i mean the last time you know that he is imprisoned and sometimes i hear that maybe he was left but again i don't know what he has i mean he should come out and tell us where he is a fee is interested in doing that so so in principle anybody who did not was not convicted for a crime in libya i don't think that mr safely slam can do that unfortunately because when he has all the power unit his lifestyle he cannot do much as much fact he came out and he threatened the libyan people when the revolution started so i don't think that he is really contributing figures because again because of his history the history of his father and when he has all the power when his father was in power he has all the power to do whatever he want and we haven't seen much been

done by him or his father in favor of the of the libyan people i says were expelled from their libyan stronghold a year ago but just recently they've claimed the attack on the oil facility near tripoli that terminus such as for international and security affairs outside the group is now more active and organized than a year ago should we be worried that the group will use libya's disarray to reemerge and gray stablish itself. of course the it's very unfortunate yes i mean the the instant that you mentioned on the. seed oil national company last ten days or so of course there was always these individuals who they probably did belong to the irish or belonged to somebody else who can attack the country because clearly the country is unstable in stable and there is there is a lot of people who they can commit a lot of crimes and among them people who they say that they are part of their

argument saying there is no presence i'm sure there is but it is they are not as a year ago or a year and a half ago when they have a whole city a territory libya which is under control in sirte and that was fought by the libyan be able themselves they were expelled were of course by some help from the international power especially the u.s. but clearly this is the way to do it it is we can fight against doris because the us as an ideology is is not accepted the leave it completely reject the libya because the libyan people overall there are very modest and mother mother to muslim people they refuse the tribal from ideology but of course when there is a state of instability when there is a conditions like what we have today then clearly some people who will be able to be influenced by this by this and i don't think that there will be there even in the whole world in the coming years because nobody will be able to accept what they

are teaching them what they will be willing to what they will find people here and there will be willing because of the spirit for me other reasons to commit such crimes and maybe even commit suicide and kill other people and some people who have nothing to do with with them libya's oil production has been surprised a stable despite the armed conflict that is going on i mean it seems that yeah militias are willing to fight each other but whoever is running the oil rigs make sure they keep pumping no matter what's happening if a peaceful solution can be found to pumping oil why can't it become a broader political solution. because i think the bombing oil is of the interest of the international community it was made very clear that that has to be continuously being pumped and also the same time even those who fight these militias they need money and the only income for the libyan people is coming from oil so it is in their interest that libya will make money so they'll be able to. take more than

their share for that so so no i mean clearly if you look at this this is clearly it is an international. interest. he continues to be home and they both want a president that in those militias they understand this understand this is something they should not touch even though here and there in some instant to take place they will close one of the fields or one of the quote of the force and so on but no this tells you that the international community can exert its well on those people if they know but of course when they see that those in turkey where they don't really care what the libyan people live through these militias will continue so that's my next question because so many nations are actually willing to have their say on the libyan issue not just the oil pumping part. united arab emirates turkey qatar france italy i mean you name it are they helping at all are they

really interested in reconsideration in libya though they're not terribly. so what are they doing are they doing certainly they are not and for sure they're the what they're doing really they are the one who they supported this destruction or the other faction and those factions they're fighting each others as a proxy war for those countries of course we know the conflict is going on between the countries you mentioned the united arab emirates and egypt and qatar and turkey and others and france and italy and so on and so so unfortunately those countries they are also polarized and they come in different sides of the of the factions that are fighting together and they are there who are fueling it who they are really compete to slee supporting that sometimes even by their own. military to help one side against the other but all actors in the libyan political standoff are in contact with russia does a moscow can play a role in bringing the parties to the negotiating table the same way it's seeing in

syria for example. i mean differently i mean russia the united states and england and so on who they have really when they talk to those people of the again show that they are very interested in two things in a new unified libya and a stable libya and they will be willing to support us but they cannot support it through supplying them with weapons they should to stop doing that and also i think russia can play a positive role in helping to stabilize the country but again this requires a lot of nations they're willing to do that and they are interested to see it so i remember barack obama once sat that biggest mistake of his presidency was a lack of planning for the aftermath of could aphis ouster. norway has just admitted it had no idea what it was doing when it sent planes to bomb lilia what about now i mean do you think the west has a clear cut strategy in libya today. i don't i don't think that libya right now is

a priority to most of these countries. think libya is a priority the united states or to russia or china or to the powers to be unfortunately be slipped down into deprived of those those countries so they don't have no strategy for it and that's why clearly the smaller countries in the world are playing a bigger role in libya to destabilize that instead of the. measure countries major powers of the world who the completely different wrong being disengaged from it so so probably i mean you know over the last month or so there is some indication maybe the u.s. is trying to engage but that's not clear to me that they have a strategy of engagement in libya so is it fair to say that all those western countries interfered bomb libya and just left is that a fair statement. no what first it meant is that these countries they came to help the libyan people during the two thousand and eleven revolution and afterward

lucian successful successful in the sense of toppling the regime unfortunately as the disengaged and the left and they did not because they thought somehow that the libyan people can do it in their own clearly we have proved that we could not so here's a painful question probably for you as well mr up because you have been a staunch opponent of khadafi all your life you were also a libya's interim deputy prime minister after gadhafi was overthrown but seventy years on the tribal balance you managed to hold is gone the country is in turmoil there's war. what's the overthrow really worth it should he should it have been done in a different way. i mean what does norway report it just gave me just gave me and other testimonies of people involved it seems that many in the west now regret helping to topple gadhafi seeing how bad things got after his his ouster. there was only one think it is i think i think what had been done in two thousand

and eleven personally i think it was the right thing to do. but i wish if this in gave me continued to help the libyan people to overcome this of course right now we are paying for the legacy of gadhafi i mean i mean this is i mean this is if you look at during the revolution he is the one who let seventeen thousand criminals and give them weapons to go in the streets and those people are some most of these missions no i still still believe that the revolution was the right thing to do because we lived for forty years under an oppressive regime who has does not value anything in the libyan life or the human rights of the libyans he destroyed the country he didn't build anything with all the vast wealth of the country again yes i know the things has been bad over the last five six years or so but i'm hoping for the future that we will overcome all of this as libyans will realize that all the plots against us was coming from all these countries we have to overcome that

and clearly hope that well we would realize that this is very important that we here move we cherish the freedom the libyan people and clearly we want a democratic state but what you call what you call back when you take the potato ship if you take today's results and the situation on the ground today would you call that revolution and success i understand that the revolution brought down the container ship which was not about freedom it was not about transparency democracy but you can carve hardly call what is happening now a democracy either i mean you yourself were kidnapped by some militia guy in the broad daylight is not agree not it's not like a very democratic system and a and revolution some would argue has failed do you think it was a success for i think i think it probably would need more time to be able to i mean clearly the vision was a success in the sense that brought down the regime. but we may be able so far are

we we felt to move it from that to a real estate is there a democracy today there is no real democracy in the ideal sense there is a few elements unfortunately even the few elements of democracy they have contributed negatively because i mean i see one of the major problems and that we have over the last few years is those bodies which we have elected who they did not do anything to serve the people of libya itself so so i think it is it is a struggle that we are going through as libyans i know it's a very painful yes to all of us. and it is very painful to our people but clearly we still there is a hope that we will overcome all those challenges. especially if our international community. i was going to say thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on libyan reality and reality on the ground it was being great talking to you good luck with everything we were talking to. the former deputy prime minister

of libya discussing the country's trouble transition seven years after the overthrow of. that's it for this edition of so if you can call see next. with more make this manufacture consent to public wealth. when the ruling classes project themselves. with the prime larry go live to the one percent.

we can all middle of the room sick. i've been saying the numbers mean some big matter us has over one trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crime chappie each day. eighty five percent of global wealth you long to be all for rich eight point six percent market saw thirty percent one of your home with four hundred to five hundred three per circuit for sure and one rose to twenty thousand dollars. as building two point one billion dollars. but don't let the numbers overwhelm. the only number you need to remember is one business showed ford to miss the one and only.

one is the state of journalism well let's have a look at the new york times the paper catalogs what is called rush to get its conclusion is astounding this and much much more on this edition of crossfire. joining me every week on the alex i'm unsure when i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics. i'm sure. i'll see you then. the headlines this hour sophisticated a defense in control systems as well as radar jamming russia's response after its military plane over syria last week says the blame lies with israel which denies

responsibility to. the president will preside over the security council i'm sure that's going to be the most watched security council meeting ever a lot of good things can happen to come anticipation grows over don't.