and build lives of its service men about everything else and maxim that may have contributed to the downing of the russian reconnaissance plane over syria now there's a mirror as this approach of the back of israel can do to preserve the mode of accommodation they were once so proud oh well to discuss that i'm now joined by him that he could to know the director general of the russian international affairs council mr carson awfully good to talk to you thank you very much for the time thank you for grossman now one of the reasons russia and israel of president putin the prime minister netanyahu have been getting along so well is because they both are hard core realists with very strong i would say unashamed focus on security and in good times that could lead to a better understanding but in bad times that could also provide a basis for a very sharp collision is the latter are likely. well i think that it is getting a little bit more difficult for our show to plea its traditional role in syria

which is their role often known as broker. has always been proud of being able to preserve good relations with all the sides of the continent including shia and sunni including iran and gulf states including is a terrorism by the stadiums and i think specifically talking about two years ago there was a gentleman agreement between ourselves and the ease of who. did not want to interfere into the conflict between israel and iran and in exchange he . made a commitment clearly an implicit commitment not to interfere into the civil war in syria now can i says on that say on that precise point of the gentleman's agreement because the russian military explicitly now blames israel for what happened in syria even though i think president putin tried to soften the a little bit by calling it their chain of tragic events but the russian military

actually alleges and intend that these railings knew what they were doing doesn't mean that the dynamic between the two will have to change going forward because if they did it deliberately then that means that the gentleman the gentleman's agreement is definitely off well i think it is only natural to see the difference in the. emphasis made by the russian military and by the russian political leadership of course there are military are working very closely with the iranian contact with the sort of with the syrian counterparts well to some extent with their counterparts as well and they have their own real so i think that these shades of opinions are important and they can be. explain but let me tell you that indeed it's not just about the recent incident though of course it is

a tragedy and you know we should do sort of that such things can still happen but the situation in syria is changing for example. in iran the use of much much better intention in syria than it was two years ago and of course it is a concern for you if we take the containment of iran as israel's main objective in syria one could argue that russia has been a very very helpful partner to israel in that regard why would it done and risk this strategic accommodation it has achieved in moscow for the sake of arguably one tactical operation then you positional for he is just one element of the change in the other very important element is a very different u.s. position which makes is it a more confident you for your member of the position of the obama administration the administration was also trying to become a kind of

a broker in the region they were builds of relations with iran they were really critical of israel personal relations between president barack obama and. and these are live in leader we're not really good to put it monthly when there are no the united states. stands by israel and many observers even go as far as to say that the united states a looks at the situation in the region through the not on yahoo lens of course that makes these are more confident if not more arrogant and they would like to make full use of these new or between two to advance their positions and to change maybe not tragically but to change the terms of the gentlemen agreement. that they reached. you said this is a known radical change but the death of fifteen servicemen almost like if we assume

that israel did that deliberately to sort of put the russian plane in the line of the fire. israel always makes a point that they devalues the lives of its servicemen and bob while alison don't you think that it would not have calculated that for moscow to that would be an extremely sensitive point well my personal reading and to my guess here as he's as good as yours i don't claim to have any insider information both of these incidents but i think that one can imagine that israelis hoped that the fact that there was. in. their current or in this current could or should to prevent syrians from you know huge allies and the differences can they can i see that one because i've seen some articles in the russian media for example know by guys at the suggesting that all these talk about israel is just enough for it to cover out for the negligence and incompetence

of the russian military personnel on the ground which ultimately allowed these to happen that's a very harsh claim but do you think politically moscow could have consciously taken a risk on its relationship with israel even to explain away such a tragic. event well you know first of all to the best of my knowledge the defense systems. and the drone to the russian aircraft were not served by the russians but their citizens are still on their ground and they are how being the syrian they're already you know with our story has its own defense systems which are much more sophisticated and which are not. which are not under the control of the syrian military so what we're talking them. vote is there are. no end to created a defense system as two hundred. allergic really fully controlled

by the syrian army so even if we talk about negligence or low professionalism i think it's not really fear to blame there are military we then we should blame the syrian military for what they have done or what they have not done properly however let me say that in my personal view it would be very ordered to see not on ya go. putin he's relations with president putin into jersey just in order to shoot a couple of targets in syria because of course not on yahoo knew about the very emotional reaction of president putin to the incident was turkey so i was suggesting that it is perhaps the israeli military acting approach and only read out their private interest for knowledge so well you know i think there was one or

you know some kind of news and but i here in this particular case i agree with president putin i think it was a chain or miscalculations and tragic coincidence i don't think that any wanted to planned it and it was a deliberate provocation in my opinion that's a little bit too far and i don't think that these are lives. would go for that given the old. that the had to confront and even even now you take you know the recent russian decision to supply. the hundreds to syria it is also changing to some extent the situation of the ground and definitely to the detriment of the ability or israelis to heed targets in syria with impunity speaking about that decision obviously israel has long objected to do you think there is still a drone for mutual accommodation now that the decision has been taken i mean in the

way it is implemented can russia still kind of make it up to israel well first of all we should keep in mind that ever responded. with more serious matters or example many speculated including some experts in the zero. would try to enforce a no fly zone. to the north of damascus depriving israeli from your but you need to to heed targets in syria and you would have been very very difficult situation for israelis because on the one hand it is hard for them just to reject the idea of or get it wrong some some would argue that some of the measures proposed by russia are sort of going in that direction but let's stay on as three hundred four for the moment the reason why i ask you this question is because. you know there is some obscurity on the part of the crumlin when

it comes to the details of that transfer that i don't think was going to operate these systems and all saying and whether the syrians are going to pay for that do you think there is still a possibility that this move is temporary and that the russians will take it back when they when they leave syria in the soul would that satisfy you israel well first of all birthing that in politics everything is possible. and it's clear that russia had to respond i'm sure that it is or this were warned about this decision. i think that there are many modalities in the implementation of these decisions and the modalities will depend to a logic stand on some commitments that israel might or might not made in terms of its future activities of the territory of syria but let me tell you that with all the problems with standard these cells of west an agreement is to work and you know american sometimes complain they say that you know russians be used to

this agreement that they let sit in porsches to get directly to the golan heights but you know the agreement is still low predations so it does i think it is it suggests that there is always serve room for compromise and it's important that neither side loses fees now you mentioned before that perhaps israel was a little bit emboldened by the trumpet in this ration and tried to change the rules of the game and some of your colleagues western colleagues allege that it is pushing and who is acting a porch mystically and using this tragedy to change the rules of engagement in syria caught off israel's overflights and strikes in that country do you agree with that and how much of an irritant has israel been to russia in that country. well i'm not sure that i can buy. this position on the list for ours because what we

see today in syria he's that the intensity and the geography all these are just trying. to expand so really he's here to talk it's not just in the south west of syria but basically. he'd cars parked to go all the territory of syria and it's not just about the wars that might supply as a bowler it's about military production facilities so israelis change and lose its tactics i don't think that israel is trying to. destroy. i don't think that they really care. they care about iran and i think that the position of syria sort of the position of israel is defined

primarily by the new tensions between the united states and iran i think this is the real problem you know we have to find some kind of accommodation and i think that unfortunately many in israel and in the united states i seem to fear annoyed about iran and its intentions well mr carter now we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. u.s. president donald trump took center stage at the united nations this week the middle east was very much on his mind particularly iran for some sitting in the general assembly trumps words were simply laughable however what is happening in the middle . and beyond is anything but sun.

welcome back to worlds apart with anybody at the north director general of the russian international affairs council that's of course known just before the break you're mentioned iran and an interview with

a senior advisor to iran's supreme leader just a few weeks ago and he got very very irritated when regard to the subject of the russian israeli arrangements in syria what do you expect to be arraigned hands to exploit these incidents in their favor perhaps to drive the point that you know israel could never be trusted or to saw discord between russia and the israeli and some other way. we're starting to do a natural for anyone to make full use of this situation to tell russians look you know your claim to you've got a deal with israel is no you see these guys cannot be trusted to basically means that we should denounce all corporation and you should finally get to the right side of history and i think those are the same time nor any of. many iranians are you know. quite rational minded people to understand that. come not

very considerably since it was easier or poor very different and so they understand the limitations can i ask you actually about that as well because from what i understand the syrians and the iranians have their own game. in the loop at least there are some rumors in moscow that damascus and tehran were really eager to go ahead with the labor offensive and it took some persuasion on the part of moscow to convince them not to if russia is seen as being too soft on israel don't you think about it may encourage more risk taking behavior from od their partners so to say. well first of all needless let me tell you that at least. according to my sources in these particular cases we're quite cautious they've been all. to go into egypt so we were on the same side russians and iranians.

to somehow moderate. these lands of damascus and they were successful with this was dime being the organization is. is off the table hala now from dolphin now and again i think it's not over you're absolutely right and i'm concerned about what might have been indeed live if turks failed to implement the agreement in full and frankly i don't see that we can implement the agreement in full within the time table that they have right now for this implementation but there is a separate story. about iran saying that only one. would like to see a shift in. closer to the positions offered to her and damascus but on the other hand. they also hold that my lady and all of

a mediator and if you want to be a mediator you have to keep good relations with both sides so again you know i'm not sure that everybody believes that basically you know should drop its current partnership with the ease of you know and if you don't think that russia being soft towards israel may encourage iran to be a little bit more emboldened and how it talks to russia for example. well you know you're honest moved into the corner. and the situation for indians is getting more and more difficult literally every month just sitting and they don't have a choice there are things or even you know would take the recent a terrorist attack in off across you know these mostly populated sunni dominated era here in your own it's

a very serious case and there indians have already accused both gulf states and the united states of those or critical not only natural for them it's only natural but again. it's a really serious signal can i bring you back to the syrian. war theater because we talked at length about these three hundred delivery but there is one more measure that the russians intend to take which may have an placation far beyond israel i'm talking about jamming satellite navigation on board the radar and communication system of all. of them to hear and see you said that you do not believe in the in the russian no fly zone but it actually looks quite like you. are well there are many ideas floating their own of course and they actually said that they are intent to proceed it's not just an idea that this is a plan of action as far as and is that while i think that. what we can say for sure

is that terser is not interested in the further escalation. in the position on being easy to use is sort of luck to you know there's some tension i think that definitely in mosul they would prefer to have some kind of commendation with the united states. and also i think we should keep in mind that israel is important but turkey is also very important. for russia you know. i don't think that our show will take any measures. and you will for doubt because there are some turkish corporations right now because if turkey's oh out of the pros is if turkey's all out of the bleep do you know we have a problem i mean there are some syrians everybody has a problem so i think that. they might. make

a case. of the my demonstrate that there are there was a variety of options and they can choose from this very to whatever he's appropriate at a given moment but i think. it will be prudent to least i hope that it will be if i can. take you back to these. seeming idea of the no fly zone over syria or at least the idea of jamming satellite communications there it is an open secret in moscow that russia has tried repeatedly to get israel to notify about their upcoming missions with a very limited success israel usually either fails to do that or doesn't do the very last minute do you think after that incident that's gone the change it's hard to tell because of course is there is a concern that even though to fire afghans well in advance. russians can leave this information someone who says no he was trying to is all about if you're going to be

in the us well. in the case of syria it's hard to talk about divorced. both i think that. it would be difficult to write no tourists to work between darshan military and these are really counterparts you know judge and the statements coming from the russian ministry of defense. there are no to be really. i don't think it's only rhetoric i think that it's more than that after maybe there was some kind of seed of communications that means that they are likely to proceed with this intentions to john satellite communications which leads me to another question then because i interview a lot of current and former israeli officials and they all carry this narrative that israel can strike anywhere anytime when if security is involved which is you know montra geopolitical political and military i think it's almost

a social mantra right now can that mantra be changed because of the russians because that's what actually the russians are pushing forward to that this idea of jamming all satellite communications so i think that border russia can do. increase the costs. for israel if israel continues. such behavior what extent i mean the one thing you know you know them denies that everybody you know you thinking out their own their point it's very clear you know you for roger. is terms for him as to be hunted into syria. and basically uses gives these systems to syria it's so these systems are not going to be controlled by russians at least that's how i read the decision it means. in deed

of israeli planes can be grounded because these systems are arguably much more sophisticated the ones that syrians used to be so deep or so for these strikes for israel will go that's why either of this will come sort of both these terms for that it's not just the israeli aircraft that's helped orating in the syrian air space without the mandate emerick and said there to do thing they will play along with this russian laid new order. well of course no one who. formerly recognize their legitimacy over there are some decisions they would say well you know we don't bomb them to feel that we have to abide by the decisions made by most or even by by bashar assad and nobody here article term but in practical terms they will taken notice i think that would mean that. they will need . a different level of communications with the russians to avoid tension texas

because again nobody wants to the best of my no wish nobody wants to see these really were american aircraft droned it no bomb nobody wants to see another crisis around it but for russia bones to have an impact on these really behavior. to use behavior and the other way around so it's a very delicate game and i think that both sides have. some courage on this leaves that they can put on the table that it's an appropriate moment now president obama and his syrian policy was often criticized for. drawing red lines that he couldn't or wouldn't than force or red lines that bad actors in the region of would be motivated to demonstrably break i wonder if russia indirectly is also trying to draw some sort of rad lines across the syrian air

space that with that you know bad actors in the region or even its partners its adversaries maybe i'm motivated to contest openly you know was the key word in your question is indirectly and that makes a difference you know russia did not announce a no fly zone. but it never stated that there is a particular rebel. but. responded in current by supplying damascus with more sophisticated to defense systems i think this is their action approach not to state something especially if it is very difficult to. to stand by the decision indeed you know with so it was with obama but even in these early you know when the israelis say that iranian presence

in syria is an acceptable one doesn't mean you know they had a hand i'm not how i know they may go into you know to start a major ground offensive in suited to push out are they ready to start to real war well apparently not so you know sometimes you know these lines are good for political or athletic. they might be misleading the fare to the iranian presence in syria is that agonized by is or they don't like it they would like your arm to be alt but they understand that these particular juncture it is not at least to expect any us to his door. and i think the same can be applied to me in your other. situations within syria including themselves the west including believe including what's going on in the

east of the throat there are many many. regional situations we are in positions are taken but all sides understand that there are limits and there are the lines of they cannot girls mr carson if we have to leave it there but i really really appreciate you being with us today thank you bro thank you for inviting me thank you pandora jeremy years to keep this conversation going and our social media pages help to sarah. same place same time here and while the party.

both think you know we need to go back to invite all foreign force out stuff supposition that's also the position of the government that's the mission to the song goes in any case even if there is a number of contingency they've got to go back want it to the to the country. medical use downs good leaks laws lonely guard. when you. present that it would look at the distant cousin wasn't it

a book called a but. it's going strong it's the it's about scene i mean there's. just too little. stories this hour here on oxy rocket man. kim with north korea the focus of the latest security council meeting we look at how in the space of just a year the white house went from vowing to destroy the country to praise and. recall saying that the bill.