this is good but this is the. from my point of view it's very important to me because this relation is sustainable and for that we need to speak. i mean politicians we need to discuss the problems which are creating might create some problems is the future to avoid these problems now from a strategic point of view russia is very interested in having friendly relations with its neighbors in particular ukraine because of its size in georgia because of its north caucasus location but obviously it hasn't been able to achieve that how much of it is russia's fault and how much of it is not russia's fall the fact that this very troubled relationship that it has been both countries you know first of all we have to take into account that we are living in a very difficult time when soviet empire have been collapsed and. everything have been changed relations between the people. let's say very loose which where it just

familiar for us so the new live which brought a lot of problems you can see in relations to we. between russia and georgia between the ukraine and russia how much of a percentage is fall of fresh air or georgia you know i think we all make mistakes and surpass the point of my question do you see that just happenstance that happened that's history or do you think that it was encouraged that it was a goal of somebodies policy and yes i don't i mean obviously western first of all we were all on the erosions we georgians and i think ukrainians of that which is coming from there was this is good this is not like there are lots of good things in there was good values but the rest some things which are not acceptable for us and i think it was an illusion face as the second of course. just fighting for

independence you know i think it was not right when we begin to fight for our independence and we were trying sometimes to find. this for all the problems which we had we were not thinking about the problems which we have inside of the country of course. after soviet. and just from the side of russia as there was some kind of theme fluency in georgia for example i mean you know. this was quite clear and russian policy was not clear for georgia and sometimes friendly for georgia but we georgians we made the mistake part of mistakes too i think it was a big mistake to just cut the relations with russia and to focus our relations only with the west but what is really right of course this is a struggle this is a battle and of course it was a battle for influence in georgia in ukraine as

a places from the western countries especially from united states of course u.s. wanted to strengthen. its influence in georgia in ukraine right now it's. really even right now existing time when russia was. not so strong so i think these this this is a problem which will create some problems in our country now. there is a clear asymmetry in political and geopolitical interest between russia and georgia and i know that you said once. when you were in government you were still able to balance those out and prevent an actual conflict from breaking out how did you do that what was your thinking at that time you know i was always absolutely sure. georgia. sure there was any kind of military confrontation with russia on not

only georgia but any country should try to avoid any military confrontation with me specially when this neighbor is super power and i have enough influence in the governments that time to stop somehow. of their present self my previous government headed by mikhail saakashvili who was the surest rusher i will afraid he just threw in a wall in conflict in georgia russia will just take into account international reaction and what was agreed to stay i think a mistake of south australia and he's team of the they have the feelings that the west will tell you i was absolutely sure that it will not happen and that was why i was trying to do my best to prevent any kind of military conflict but i am not happy even when i was in government relations between russia and georgia where not

really perfect and i feel part of my fall in this direction too now you served in several interviews that had you been in government in august of two thousand and eight the conflict in southeast asia may have been avoided and i wonder why do you believe that because. president saakashvili if we see in russia is usually portrayed as somebody who was north fool irrational in making those decisions is that your perception or do you think you in fact could have been persuaded otherwise to take a different you know i am not sure that it was possible to stop the war being in the government but i think i had the chance to do it because before in two thousand and eight in april there was a similar situation as in august consenting. a lot of people. really just the wise the heem to take applies in to begin a war in. applies the time i was quite powerful and i was

successful let's say to stop here kind of arguments are under used. you know first of all i pressed him to call to president putin and i said that we have to avoid military confrontation because it might cost the price for george and you can destroy the country and. the people have no arguments because i was sure that for will involve the country in that of confrontation with russia world. over loose. doubt and nobody will help us and fortunately saakashvili was. a clever enough in this particular moment and he decided to speak with the president would you seem change bits that incident in a later bounce in southeast asia because obviously he took a different decision to use things very important was the international situation

at the time because there were elections in united states and mccain and he's a team where very close to us really and more than sure. this team was trying to assure us that in case of war russia will be not involved in this war even if russia world ect united states will help them i'm sure mccain and he's team gave such kind of guarantees and he just trusted to. the second. stay alone with the people who were let's see. for war not for peace now. mr mckeon was very sad on tearing georgia away from the so-called russian sphere of influence and this is something that president saakashvili also supported but i was . what exactly he meant by that because i understand that he wanted to be

associated with the americans politically but what about the economy did he want to cut all trade ties with russia in the same way that the ukrainians are doing right now you know first of all concerning ukrainians ukrainians are doing great now as a salute to say mistakes we we did before we took president saakashvili and he steam indeed and unfortunately government destroyed their country i don't know maybe they don't understand this but they destroyed the country they lost not only crimea but they lost their own people in two regions calling these people terrorists. not to speak with these people and those things that ukrainians and russians they really have historical very deep roots and to cut these roots and to try and just to show yourselves that you are absolutely separate and different. from russians this is absolutely stupid ways this is a way to nowhere i am sure that this will create more problems for ukraine

will be very difficult for ukraine what about the. things that mccain and people like him and not only a lot of people in united states and maybe not only united states they of course wanted just to cut all possible links of georgia with russia and the ukraine with russia how did they in visage that to be compensated because you obviously georgia need some income could not only trade when you know enjoyed you had this is possible because georgia is a really small and i want to be objective we were receiving from united states lots of money after war for example to cells and eight we received one thousand who have been. released but consenting to ukraine you see is that ukrainian economy have been doing depp's a little because ukraine is not receiving the money which is which can compensate. problems with always a russia which can compensate. how this economy to which exist they existed between

new ukrainian and the russia and i don't think that somebody really cares about ukraine's economy and ukrainian people those people who wants to use ukraine as a buffer zone between russia and and there was these people in this case this thinking about big policy and they're not thinking about some people well but i'm just as i have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments state you. are. going to accept the story of the right to live. it's.

like. i don't bust i. was somebody doesn't know it's a mask you never know what's happening and whether they're shooting whether there's . mistrust out of the. love of that. better than. us which would mean you must be listening to what i'm addicted to your middle class and in the muslim to all these to deal with.

welcome back to worlds apart because georgia politicians and you know. madam will join us just before the break we were talking about the ukrainian government's current government's efforts to cut all ties with russia and i don't know if you heard just the other day. they banned all russian literature not only contempt for literature birth from what i understand even classic literature like tolstoy and dostoyevsky which they call russian cultural products and i can see you smirking but this is actually a very unusual i would say on precedented social experiment do you think it is

actually possible to purge all things russian from the ukrainian society of course this is a stupid absolutely. if your cranium government and it's you know it's a sad and the funny it's the same time what they're going to do. burns the books russian books you know just to ban them they don't have to burn you know i am not sure because if you ring their literature i musical. or tolstoy or something like claim was all going. next day you can burn ings the books and this is this is a very dangerous really really. people because the government chose their face very bad boy ten years ago when the events in south ossetia happened when the russia. when i had to penalize not just mr saakashvili but actually all georgian people by recognizing the dependence of those two breakaway

republics i'm sure the russian sentiment at that time was very very strong and they have even the saakashvili government. didn't go all that down that route why do you see ukrainians reacting in such such an extreme fashion to all things russian because i understand the trauma of crimea understand the trauma of the war but i think georgians have been through all of that and yet they reacted somewhat differently you know first of all consent in crimea crimea was the first awful mistake of the ukraine and ukrainian government and people who came after my dad because when you're coming into the poland u.s. things that old russian speaking people should leave the crimea all russian language should be. premier of course the people who were living there they decided to change their just to be alone and sending

russia georgian relations into cells and eight it was very painful of course first of all it's difficult for me to say that but. let's say i'm brave enough to say that yes there was a main just person who begin a war really gave this order and russia. there's absolutely no love lost for mr secretary in russia but i think people now can appreciate that he never went as far as cutting the ties by being so maybe it was not so we the bull it was no so just both for many russian people but russia really enjoyed was successful to create the absolutely russian feeling especially in generations so he was trying to do this he wanted. yes fortunately not fortunately so what is very important to say yes of course if you

mention recognition of a president. this was very painful for me and for georgia for the country and for the people i think it was a mistake from russian side think it was an over reaction from the side of pressure and mistake because it brought in a very difficult situation and we have to find right now solution how to find solution between russia and georgia between. georgia. in georgia but i hope to members that i see that there is a political will in russia or to find. some possible ways of improving russian george generalisations including conflict solutions you know a few years ago when i was interviewing former president dmitry medvedev who made that fateful decision it seemed to me that he was actually kind of open to the

idea of georgia regaining its territorial integrity i mean he obviously it was up to the people of those breakaway republics but it wasn't the closed file the way crimea for example is a closed file for russia do you believe that or is that a yes i believe because pleased to hear it again from you because when i met. with him and put in when i spoke with him he openly in front of the journalist to mention that if georgians and. georgians and decided to find. any kind of. political field any kind of decision how to leave the country in which countries they want to leave russia will not create a problem and i see that president putin and. some people in russian government they are really ready to try to improve this relations and i think that what

georgians should do first of all we have to speak with us we have to speak with the sessions and of course we have to speak with the russians because i am sure that there are key for these conflicts solutions. exist but there are different keys one key one key in the whole me. and one key exactly in russia and georgia the current prime minister mom or dad to said the other day that georgia intends to be a member of nato once the circumstances allow or do things statements like that are conducive to that reconsider process that you're dreaming of course of course not and you know there was a time before to cells and eight when i was once to educate so georgian membership in nato and i had my own arguments as that time but. eight changed absolutely situation on the ground and political should take into account the reality which is

on the ground which have been change and you can say the same what you are saying ten years ago right now we have russian military bases on georgian territory. what will happen if you will even imagine that one day georgia will be a member of nato it means a georgia will be do i do it in two parts this is absolutely unacceptable now since dimension they are already i think it's clear that nato. figures front and center in russia's relations with both georgia and the ukraine and that is partly the reason what happened to those countries or russia's policies towards those countries because russia clearly sees nader as an existential threat and in the grand scheme scheme of things i think russia believes that it can sacrifice its relations with both georgia and ukraine in order to protect itself i wonder if the same is true in the reverse. for both of these countries that you see of russia as an existential threat we only need to count protect you from know that russia is

the existential the threat for georgia who will be clever and brief enough to speak openly about the problems which exist i'm sure that we will find solution always russia and i'm sure that we will have normal relations with russia russia have a right to be sure. he's its. borders will be in their will not to bring is a straight forward for them and in today's situation we should take this into account because the world have been changed a lot and very seriously and i'm absolutely sure that if georgia wants to restore territorial integrity of georgia wants to be a. normal country and to develop the normal way georgia should be clear. georgia should not be member of nato first of all nobody will just allow georgia to

be a member of nato when we have a two and solve conflicts one we have two russian military bases this is paul policy and they're very sad that today's georgian government they continue with this illusory declaration of sending georgian membership in nato and they are not brave enough to begin that dialogue and communication with the russian president and with russia to be for georgia nato membership is not acceptable either let me also ask you about crimea heard you say that you believe. crimea is a closed file for russia that it will never go back to your green obviously and most of the people in this country feel the same way georgia's national interest which will be brief enough to say that yes we want to have friendly relations with everybody we have to have good relations with the western part of the world in the western community but we need to change our relations with russia in. the way we have to cooperate we have to make a dialogue and we have to be close with this country because it's well

motherboards and has a really cold but the majority of georgians share your message it's certainly pleasing to hear that as a russian thank you very much for your time and i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going to our social media pages. again same place same time here on worlds apart. it's hard to imagine after the war a nazi doctor was still active rich in the nineteen seventies current intel had as

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all middle of the room see you. doing. really need to really. thank. you he thanked thank you he threw thank you thank you thank you. thank you in a damning speech at the u.n. russia's foreign minister lambastes the political blackmail economic pressure and brute force he says western governments are using to preserve their global

dominance. thanks angry protests in barcelona with clashes between police and cattle on separatists just two days before the.