a lot of history. ross knocking the gordian knot i'm joined by michael c. or moscow geoffrey roberts he's in a story in senior fellow at the helsinki for advanced studies and a member of the royal irish academy and we have nick like petro he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island all right gentlemen let's talk about cutting the gordian knot where we all know the poor state of relations between the west and russia we both know that very well. how do we get out of this cold or we just have to accept the status quo for a very long time to come. i'm afraid it's the latter. i don't see any political figure on the horizon in the west who could take the lead and show that kind of innovative thinking that would lead to an era

of mutual benefit and potential reconciliation between east and west because i do think in the long run it will happen. because there's a lot of general frustration among many knowledgeable politicians and academics and observers but there's no one willing to step up to the plate as it were and assume that responsibility basically of saying you know the the emperor has no clothes we need a different one we needed a nixon to go to china something something like yes and to see it through the hope had been that trump would be able to do this but he seems to be bamboozled by his own advisers and unable to extricate himself from the general morass that is washington today. when this is all to. this slogan which

a lot which is pessimism of the intellect optimism of the will so you are right to be pessimistic about the common conjuncture it russia's relations with the west it's very difficult to see in the media for what you have and i think we need to you know optimistic in terms of future prospects look we've been here we poor there's been very bad periods in russian american thought russian relations before . trying. to situation which french. is ok there was lots of. specific issues that dispute between russia and the west at the moment but there is something more general going on isn't there which is that the west is trying to to isolate a marginalize russia and not succeeding by the way as an international player and that's what's happened in the past we're going to be talking about some some some history in just a moment i hope one of the lessons of that history is that if you want to solve world problems problems of peace security stability you have to involve russian i

think that fundamental lesson will actually come to the floor when this side of the pond people that i talked to here there is what's the point in trying to talk they don't want to talk isolation the soviet union was sanctioned in isolated it's not something that's new keir i mean. i think that the willingness to reach out to him the russian hand go out to the west is quite limited right now what's the point once the next round of sanctions based on what you've never produced to us or to the public i think there's a there's a lot less of a sense of initiative on the russian side now after all this. true and. there is this sense that there is the know the idea that the ball is in the other person's court and we're waiting it to for it to be law back. but one of the things that i think distinguishes this period of hostility from previous periods is the

lack of basic respect for the other side. and there's a sense in washington among people who seem to have lost touch with reality and and lost any awareness of history specifically that. respect somehow is due only to people who have power who can hurt you. but. respect actually has to go deeper it has to be a more general respect and awareness for the cultural and cultural tradition of other other people not only for what they how they could potentially harm here and until we regain some broader sense of how russia fits into the west is part of the western community i'm afraid

we won't be able to talk to each other yet if you mentioned history here we have the enter bursary of the new nick agreement the preamble to the start of the second world war in europe what can we learn from that because there's wonder people always remember from that they don't always remember the year they don't always remember the characters of watching on cable t.v. they screw it up all of a piece of it right now that we're in a moment now kind of echoing what nicko i had to say is that even venture forward to try to get involved in some kind of dialogue to cut this gordian knot you are committing that is a really bad place to be but. it was always felt to sign the lesson of history is that people don't know from history now often he was wrong i think the lesson for mystery's the people do learn from history but they learn the wrong lesson and the wrong lesson that let's learn from the munich crisis is that peace peace because

wrong that concessions are wrong completely the wrong question there's nothing wrong with appeasement in the current title conjuncture that's what we need we need appeasement we need concessions we need negotiation we need accommodation they started a lesson at the munich crisis was that you could peace hit the nazis but that doesn't mean to say you can the peace of a dictator is all of the old appeasement calm calm. noble foreign policy which which was before before the i mean across this so let's learn from history let's learn the right lessons of history. it. was going back back to what i said about respect respect for resumes that you are trying to listen to what the other side has to say and that's where dialogue comes in. dialogue and presumes the two voices are speaking not just not just one voice in an echo chamber taking a public stand too much is taking place in the public eye and not enough

where it used to be international diplomacy in the in the quietness of rooms where people can actually negotiate agreements with each other and then bring them forth when everything is done in the spotlight we see from. reverie thing in the news that the it brings out the worst in people. and you know if it does fall too much of a public display diplomacy and international it would be like this is called public diplomacy i mean it's almost intentional they're intentionally sabotaging it i mean it is there is no there's no genuine went up to be interested in doing it because unfortunately going back to this term or mis understood in wrongly remembered term appeasement is that your when you if you get involved in a dialogue you're involved in a dialogue with some of that is no moral stature and that's the problem we have

right now i mean i like nixon went to china i mean two very different systems china had just gone through the was going through the great cultural revolution but nixon had the guts and foresight to do we don't have the problem of public diplomacy is it it's a prisoner of domestic politics more often not that's just a problem. the question of respect is fundamentally i also think it's a question of trust. restoration process restoration of respect. some political movement forward. your earlier point about well you know how much longer should russia continue to hand. had the friendship of the friendship and cooperation when we can see what happens i've been really impressed by the persistence which to russia russian federation putin love for a continue to. continue to try to. actually file for it's a meaningless in the in the waning days of the obama administration two different

cease fires were set up for syria and when we know what party broke those ceasefires because they didn't want to see russia on the same equal diplomatic playing field it was intentional and we had an iran agreement and we had the iranian grand we. much of what has happened with north korea is also thanks to the persistent efforts of russia to foster a peaceful resolution on that on that principle. so russia has a sensible policy. and i do believe that the rest of the world comparing russia's policy with the united states and some of its european partners sees that so that even if you have to take public stances. in favor of policies that are not sensible in the long run your own national

interest dictates a more sensible approach and that brings you willy nilly closer to russia you know it's unfortunately we have no assistance zero sum game one side wins one side loses and it's black and white but that i mean you can go through the great power rivalries of the the seventeenth eighteenth nineteenth century and then even in the early twentieth century we've never had a complete zero so. you know it's some point you know going back to national interests you should be able to find your national interests and be able to co-exist with your adversary always keeping your national interests there there's no reason why it should. i mean. that's a political choice that's a choice. but political choices and. a foreign policy that is based on on respect mutual respect creates

a positive dynamic creates what social scientists call a virtuous circle so you can. by fostering hostility lead to the withdrawal of. good really of the damaging of relations and of trust or you can reverse that cycle and lead to a positive this is zero sum game concept is really in the middle where you they're on one side of it or another and moving in that direction so i think just as we have been moving in a direction which heightens tension and creates crises by reversing the the policy that we're now doing that will lead us in the opposite direction hold that thought here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on russia's relations with the with state with our.

join me every thursday on the alec simon show and i'll be speaking to guest on the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you than. that of the nation hands have made it possible in this safeguarding the life of that innocent civilians and the home by all means that we can be you know possible i think even you know a little and you know. committing a crime was to say is international it's the second cell out of this exhibit as to you mentioned and again also a lot of principles and values. cooked additional supposed to not of what was an ounce of the longer some of these it's just a blood usual condition known. cinema

yet so intimately to notional closely. linked with the showing of the where it's going to see is lost when the church. here think i'm sure. you have the same sort of. boat of shipping. you up and most of both the book is the work of the books in your book still missing you know so i do know what the war. was the latest news in the put us. boys in the right so you have put this was going to say. where are students are in the story of the social it doesn't . welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lawwell to remind you what. russia's relations with the west.

are going to go back to jeffrey one of the things where russia in the united states popped up over the last few days was president trump's address to the general assembly of the united nations you talked about a lot of things we could make an entire week of programs on everything that he mentioned but what caught your eye when it came to russia what the full speech prompted me is that we should actually stop watching. speeches stop watching we shut because watching trump speak gets in the way of understanding what he's trying to say so i think we should actually concentrate on that on his tax robin on these performance so if you read the text of these speak to the u.n. what what struck me about it was that how ideologically driven trump is as a political leader and the figure is if you look if you actually deconstruct the ideological perspective he's putting forward in that space you know he talks about

sovereignty a nation states patrick is a critical realist and his kind of like vision of global politics isn't actually that much different from the vision of russia to be of china the vision division of other countries but of course at the same time he's doing he's saying yeah let's return there's a return to nativism and co-exist happily together he is also trying to pass. trying to boss the whole world like used to trying to interfere friend here deep to deploy its power now what that tells me is this is that trump is very much a transitional figure in this process of a movement away from american globalism ideologically and politically so in a way that kind of gives me hope for the future is that this is just a thought we're going through and the direction of this is in that that is in the direction of a kind of reconstruction of russia of relations with the rest and. you know the fundamental thing which we need is the integration of russia. into the western

system that's the father of much of the meat. i agree i think that well i agree with some what you said i think we are seeing a conflict right now. and it could be as you say transitional but we could be there could be a. reaction of what trump calls the globalist forces but one of the reasons that in this speech and in his healthy speech. the text is ignored and the gaffes and. that's what is is highlighted in the american media is in order to distract from he is the sensible most of some of his idea of sort of and to portray him as a lunatic and with him by portraying him as a lunatic all of the ideas that anyone associated in any way with

being critical of the democratic establishment and so. the i would call the the low bowl the global liberal internationalist establishment in the united states is shocked at the fact that it is it is no longer seen it's no longer in power and no longer universally reviewed in the united states and and but it is retrenching and it's not keeping up and it will see this fight with to the end i mean it's very interesting after the helsinki summit i noticed it was quite glaring to me is that even his inner circle the people around him did not defend him in public or tried to explain nikki haley after the general assembly she went on the on the cable stations and tried to convince them that the people world were laughing with. not against him ok or not it is an expense and i think that's

a together collectively what you're saying is very interesting because you know. it's going to sapphic that you know one of the problems is he's got many problems but it was. but one of these problems is that you know he plays into the hands of the liberal globalist critics like firstly by embracing elements of the you know the neo con adventurous militarist kind of a program and second they temper trampling all over the multilateralism yes. multi-lateralism in every and every at every opportunity yes and that's not that's not right you know it's possible to combine a concept of global politics based on nation states by some sovereignty and all of that kind of thing with sensible multilateralism which includes united nations includes groups of various kinds. it's a prerequisite if you're going to have a multi serious multilateral agreements you need them to be among nation states that are sovereign going to feel themselves to stand for something that they know

what they're standing for well here the whole discussion of sovereignty was quite peculiar in many ways because he was talking about how every country has a right to defend their sovereignty it's their responsibility to do so but then he was threatening the sovereignty of other countries that was rather contradictory you spent some time recently in ukraine elections are coming up western media doesn't talk a lot about ukraine these days what's going on there what's the political situation and what can we expect that the elections and ukraine's relationship with the west and russia it's about ten questions in one go ahead. we started this discussion with the phrase the gordian knot and at the heart of the gordian knot between russia and the west is ukraine it's probably the central issue of contention between them. that situation i fear is only going to be exacerbated next year. at the end of this year next year precisely because of the

presidential and then parliamentary election presidential of elections in march and then parliamentary elections in the fall. right now the candidates are running to their respective extreme corners and that leaves the middle position the one where dialogue could take place in a lonely place right now. but who in twenty fourteen. ran as the candidate who would end the war in a matter of hours and he could have gone to the da there was still that opening where he might have been able to do that yes and and he vall said he would and he would eat but crucially he ran as a candidate for peace. that peace has now been formally sanctioned as

a resistance to russian aggression and until russia is defeated in this war that's increasingly the terminology and it is really game right and and this is this is his new campaign platform. but. is running at six or seven percent of the popular vote. i think his strategy now has to be to shore up his base which is very much a regional base that it's they in the west the only chance he has in my opinion of reaching the second round is to dominate and win in the west and gain enough votes that way and then veer sharply to try to reach out to the east and south where his popularity is nil essentially you know. is this another frozen conflict you just like i can't see really. i mean i mean if you give in the

domestic politics in the rest of ukraine you're compromises for both you can't compromise on leads issues very much hope is frozen conflict that seems to be at the moment in the shelter better than the australian prospect. could bring a little bit of history back into this. crisis one thinks of the comparisons between you know the crimean secession from your crying and the learn german. such leave the wrong historical analogy for correcting sturrock analogies what happens six months later. when when hitler sponsored the breakup of the czech is it looks like you have a need to prime the slip and german troops march into into prague now you compare that with what russia's role in ukraine current process did russia occupy you crying a lot of the country which could have done. you know what it is that she

tried to find a resolution that the conflict the civil war on the bicycle even of the separatists terrorists actually becoming part of ukraine again so it seems to me that's the best historical power. russia has acted to leave huge restraint in relation to the process so that gives me some hope for the future. well. going to do i'm concerned about the west and meddling in the what conflicts but i'm hopeful that russia is going to try and consign the control of the whole discussion in russia during all of this. juxtaposition in the west is that putin is doing too little i mean that's so far apart we aren't looking at this they're going to follow up on this point. the chords are the consensus view of all the signatories including russia the boss must become part of ukraine again. the question arises why has that not yet

happened. i think one serious concern is that the ukrainian government is extremely reluctant to see forty five million voters enter the pl the political spectrum in ukraine that are essentially opposite in opposition to their view of ukraine and as long as they can keep that at bay. they can continue their current policies. so essentially that would be. i'm not assuming under any conditions that i can think of that russia would accept the donbass and to the russian federation that's something that i don't think it's going to just do your current situation it's only going to change if you credit to mystic politics changes. for the better but that could be quite a long time in coming we have one minute i heard this phrase once from

a friend of mine ukraine is a nationalism without a nation how do you feel about that. there is a ukrainian nation but it is a pluralistic it is culturally plural nation and it doesn't want to recognize the current government does not want to recognize that culture plurality it is therefore defeating it's going against the grain of its own national history and identity twenty seconds to church. one of the examples of this is the current effort to take the canonical of the status of the ukrainian orthodox church which is the only canonical church in ukraine and destroy it and create a new national church which will not be in communion with the rest of the orthodox world. an unprecedented even thing even the church can you know have to know that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks to my guests here in moscow and thanks

to our viewers for watching us here r.t.c. unix time and remember crosstalk. play. dumb to accept the slow drivers goldust was right to be a little it's. a little challenging lately. and i don't bust i love me a lot of them had

a lot of them somebody doesn't know it's a masculine you never know what's happening and what they're shooting whether they're cheering. and mistrust the tibetans are. going to. be the boss would you give me a multiple i'll be just thinking of that in you but i'm addicted to sit with your middle class and in the most farms of all these clear when the. you know world of big movies lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell. we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time

is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. seem wrong. to me but yet to stamp out this they become educated and engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. just to look for common ground. this is. a church secret indeed priests accused of sexually abusing children can get away with it literally i like to call this the geographic

solution so what the bishop needs to do then he finds out that the priest is is a perpetrator is simply moves him to a different spot where the previous standard is not. highest ranks of the catholic church help conceal the accused priests from the police and justice so something that you know that's known as the end and then i think you'll hear that it used to seattle. i. just. i.

i. i. our headline stories this hour us washington could be open to talks with the taliban militants enough callisto parts. of the group rejects the possibility of any negotiations. with the leadership of the taliban doesn't want to negotiate with the americans and has never wanted this and the leadership of taliban never gave permission to any member to me go on their behalf. north korean leader.