the withdrawals now by businesses by politicians from the investment conference in saudi arabia this would not have happened had it not been for the media the media is actually. waiting to see how these people are behaving and they're going to have to have a go at them and when we talk about israel israel is a is an occupation power and it's a brutal occupation or occupiers are brutal by nature they will not tolerate anyone seeking freedom from their occupation. but at the same time there is a creation of the western world. if the last colonial project that we have tell me about the man himself he was a hero was previously close to the saudi royal family. and he was a good friend of osama bin laden's well as our beloved and was a good friend of so many people he was a good friend of the americans he was a good friend of the family context is very important here because when osama bin laden went to afghanistan and forth with the mujahideen that was an american war

against the soviet union everybody welcomed it. so that's history but for a more recent part of our history we always insisted until the day he died and i had a discussion with him only hours before he disappeared he insisted he wasn't. an opposition member against the royal family he was just a critic of some of the policies adopted by the crown prince he was very anxious that the country was taking a turn into what is worse he was he was afraid or he was concerned about its future that's why he wrote what he wrote of he was never a member of the opposition he worked for them he worked with face when he was head of intelligence he worked for him when he became a mess of the of so there will be. in london and then in washington i remember.

once he was dispatched by his government to meeting in beirut in two thousand and five in which i was involved that brought together members of the leadership of hamas and very senior former members. of the u.s. administration and some british governments his government thought this was an important meeting and sent him to attend it with us so he was really very close do you think he felt immune to any kind of threats from. the present leadership in saudi arabia he knew if he went back to saudi arabia he would have been arrested and probably sent behind bars like the like some of his other friends that's why the lingo decided not in the ritz girl to actually be worse yes not just that it's got them a couple of months earlier in september. economists scholars academics

journalists who simply did not speak were arrested and sent to prison and now some of them are likely to be sentenced to death but he never but never look at him. that he would be assassinated or even kidnapped while living in washington or in istanbul that thought never came to or came to us whenever thought so that maybe it would do something that is it was for taking you by some surprise the civil society reaction after all after nine eleven saudi u.k. and saudi u.s. relations weren't particularly affected there was no great effect of that there was moved hasn't been impact on u.k. saudi relations after we hear of the slaughter in yemen twenty million people in that in the world's worst humanitarian crisis we are surprised when you heard that liam fox story is amazing minister will be going to a saudi investment conference i was expecting him to withdraw because of the

pressure from the media on him now see saudi arabia the difference there need to so the idea is that he started practicing politics and unprecedented thuggish way his war on yemen. his campaign against cuts of. his incarceration of his own cousins of his m cause his. siege of there well of. them believe there was a better term some of those relatives were what about him i mean he gave he gave tom half a trillion dollars what about him no it's really it's so thugs in saudi arabia since woman and man started running. started becoming a burden on the west it is a clear burden on the west now trump didn't want to see this because he was benefiting he was telling his constituency back in the in the united states that he

was being able to bring in billions of dollars from the saudis so that was the justification for whatever they did now the atrocities in yemen are for everybody there to see the this option of harmony within the gulf area would seem to care about that there was a drizzle being said britain will still continue selling arms to say that bus atrocity was so many schoolchildren were killed often saying actually more british lives will be threatened if we don't sell the saudis weapons because terrorism factories threaten britain's streets if we don't work with it it is true governments have interests and governments pursue their interests and they convince their electorate that without this money you cannot have jobs this is a sinister game they play but look at civil society. the media human rights organizations n.g.o.s have increasingly being been putting pressure on western

governments that this cannot continue like this when he said he would do the job in yemen in just a few days and it's been years now with with a tall with a death on the rise the. against cutter and what it did to even western interests in the region. and now the as a nation in such a brutal manner of jamal fashionably so increasingly he his cover is being removed he's been exposed or have to wait zero and i have to ask you of course this week has again been deadly in gaza the gaza division of the i.d.f. got a letter of commendation for its actions in gaza your thoughts about what's happening there if you look at the way the israelis deal with the palestinians is just a another imperialist colonial power they want to maintain their occupation they don't learn from history anything of us is getting stronger. hamas is not its

best moments at the time that at the time being because of the because of the boycott because of the siege imposed on gaza but hamas is still there and its credibility has not been affected because palestinians look at a mass and look at the other but as seen in factions and they can see who is holding fast and who is not increasingly weaker mahmoud abbas. buses almost finished it's almost as and to me thank you after the break award winning self-proclaimed activist on his story from prison to public good. to have going underground.

the grim reaper of the bond market has appeared with this with this guy and he's looking up the global bond market he's got all. this obama apocalypse it's a tsunami paper and it's. going to be the greatest financial collapse and her love and. have faith in this government official of president of the f.c.c. the system are sort of dog i'm too liberal the system designed for people like me to move. as well as the. different people who are here for different reasons we all see job we also.

most people in philadelphia are only about two paychecks away from homelessness. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race off and spearing dramatic development the only posts really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time time to sit down and talk. to north korea's history of the seventeen years we are one of the every few countries. years of history of diplomatic missions with them we are. you

know mutineer free status country and this policy is working for us and we're trying to communicate you know this denuclearized you know situation may contribute much spitzer to their security then the. nuclear you know progress. i did the war planning for the principle force provider command in the united states military for four years i've worked on this region for years i do not understand this saudi arabia is the greatest state sponsor of terrorism in the world still today and yet we call here on that and we lie when we say that we outright blatantly lie when we say that and moreover we know where lie.

tracking gave americans a lot of job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i could make twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year truck so i chose to drive truck people rush to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold rush is very very similar. but this beautiful story ended with pollution and devastation a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here and just slow down so much they lost their jobs that laid off the american dream is changing that's not what it used to be. and it's a tough reality to deal with. i

. mean. seasonally. or. welcome back well there are many reports from the turkish media over the alleged killing of jamal khashoggi and those familiar with the case say it was organized by saudi arabia's intelligence services but in the u.k. g c h q's about surveillance under the water to resume was found to be illegal by the european court of human rights but before moscow resident snowden drop the mike on a mess of ailments there was barack brown he served time for his efforts and was hounded by the f.b.i. he now joins me via skype from san antonio in texas thanks so much brant for coming

on just start by telling us about the pursuance project which i understand you've launched in the past few weeks which for so it has been the progress of about two years now ever since i was released from prison after my four year students involved stim to cell from having a bus to get some of these same issues in the u.k. right now going surveillance of what not so pursuance is a framework or what we call process democracy it allows individuals with notice or . relationships to congregate online in this ecosystem that we're overseeing and better do since it was the center of things we've been doing in the past ten years in digital activism and transparency activism if make age. has changed things this is the next to extent that it's not yet i think really been realized to understood by even most educated observers and we hope to a change that over the next few years the story of how you ended up in jail is quite a long one just briefly i mean. over here they'll be people with anonymous mosques

on guy fawkes night in november they be i raided your place for documents including ones own anonymous many others and you were put in jail what for sharing a link let alone holding those dogs. it was a rather it's a rich tapestry ok so i was i was that the search warrants they delivered when they first read me listed a number of the illicit intelligence contracting firms that margaret project d.m. had been investigating s.h.p. gary palin's or firms and discovered to be engaging with the us government's assistance in some cases in a legal and indefensible attacks on journalists and activists in the us and brought up so my case because of that it was a blatant instance of a tally ation for marc crowdsource research my general projects that obviously backfired on them and that in trouble a lot of the more controversial charges including as you said the linking charges

which were the most controversial but also kind of illustrated how frightened certain states and state actors are of this new trend towards individuals being procedural structures online they can develop their own structures and ways we've been impossible twenty years ago and that's something that is i think it's evident that this is challenging to existing power structures around the world but if u.s. authorities aim to frighten you surely people are going to be frightened by your example and think even sharing a link can put them behind bars fairly that's always part of the of the intent when they go after whistleblowers sleepers activists revolutionaries and try to very visibly. you know subject them to prison much much better than be the murderer space that is absolutely intent we use we have to make sure that doesn't work obviously another great thing about my case is that it didn't work and rather than silence me by voice in ways that quite frankly i was not competent enough to

achieve myself do you see any particular reason then why mainstream media as it's called is not more aware of championing say stories like mass surveillance i mean to resume is just. involved in breach of articulate of the hearing prevent european convention on human rights of a mess of valence it's not made such a big deal of in the elite me here over there here having worked with the media being and having been a part of the media for most of my adult life i was a freelancer having been the subject of media coverage it's increasingly my belief is that a lot of this is structural a lot of it has to deal to go in the us in the us media culture with really a moral and just sort of vapid mentality that a great number of editors and producers and writers have is and even good journalists even journalists who really care about these issues they face challenges they have to have a newspaper they have to have some advance and even when that event comes you know

it's reported on in a few publications well that doesn't really take doesn't doesn't really cause any any long term pressure on these institutions in the first place so unless there is sustained attention of a sort that would also rounds out other issues that brown's other important things without that the state attention nothing is really accomplished and that's what rule it was really my concern bill back to eleven years ago and it's why i first got involved in activism in some ways experimental methods in the first place i felt that if we could simply harness citizens who want to stand these issues want to understand them and put them in a situation where they themselves it's a state. then we would see fundamental changes across the board on all the issues but you're working on geopolitical issues we had cables obviously from wiki leaks no one ever mentioned snowden in moscow these days much julian assange to courses in arbitrary detention here in london. even if pursuance reveals some startling connections in geopolitics do you think it will be picked up this time around you

know it's always hard to say there's always an arbitrary arbitrariness to what gets picked up on you know i'm constantly surprised at what the american people for instance what they end up caring about what they clean up is missing it's always a crapshoot and so you have somebody uncertain factors whenever whenever something like this comes out you know that the revealing of leaks the obtaining of information that's always just a small part of the battle the real battle is convincing the public that there is a reason for the big and so changing that that's that's a big part of of ensuring that when things come out when we learn more about the d.c.h. we have manged but the j.c.h. going back years years of involving some of these same abuses in d.c. h.q. documents were among those that snowden actually revealed years ago and sloan greenwald pointed out one of those documents illustrated the ways that the burial lists it is a mission now for british citizens and u.s. citizens involved in the entire legal anonymous but just

a hack attack of people cell phones these things came out then didn't make an impact then it's hard to say whether or not these things are going to all made in some real response by the public or by office holders in the u.k. is it just hard to say the former head of g c h he was on this show and obviously said the actions were all benign as you'd expect him to form a weekly leaks pardon of the guardian is now revealed and i don't want to obviously we don't want to frighten whistleblowers they reveal that for decades the british secret services have been infiltrating peace activists the anti-apartheid movement ailbhe e.g. now to be activists green activists just endless number of organizations so what can people do to evade that kind of secret service survey lintz of a more arguably a more sinister kind with fake i.d.'s and so on. but the most exciting thing to me

about that c.h.p. you are history about if you're the implication in the u.k. is that as the guardian noted the vast majority of these groups were left wing groups and as extraordinarily over overreact to left wing groups even those i don't really do much much value to to the left or right or anybody else only people have to be aware of that this is a cat and mouse game that will always occur regardless of how much better we get we get online security and that sort of thing there is always human intelligence there's always vectors for them simple as oceans and that's what pursuits project we have a number of tools in place whereby users depending on their needs security was this be used by people facing even much even worse repression than defects in the u.s. and u.k. making sure that they have the ability to understand what the what the history of these practices are and reacts to how they evolve while so always remembering that you were never a hundred percent safe if you're engaged in trying to change things speaking of

political associations we've now heard that the atlantic council has been involved in this facebook push to shut down what they call in authentic facebook pages you seem remarkably optimistic after all you've been through do you think that in a sense that means the end of facebook rather than the end of what they judge is authentic well we're seeing the culmination for the coming at a number of issues here obviously the internet has a long history of being free and an unknown soldier and as the culture changes for these companies to take a stronger hand that's what isn't true and even the government to get stronger hand you know a facebook of course is a right but. you know even as it expands it becomes something more so utility it's still not a utility is my argument so they certainly have the right to do whatever they want i would i would invite people who are serious about their internet use and but they're still looks to consider. other options pursuits again allows people to do

that within their own organizations within their own entity that they create on our platform and that's one way of solving the problem but it's not to have a sort of core solution there's always going to be these these issues always in to be these conflicts between you know letting letting things go right on their own letting ecosystems and and thousands of letters bloom on the one hand and getting people feeling as if they're safe or well informed on the other and facebook and engineer facebook is not going to solve that problem if there are progressive politicians around the world who are interested some of them saying the facebook is a utility and groups like that should be under democratic control is the pursuance going to help politicians who ask for your help when creating new policies should they be elected to office we're all working with some office holders and some previous office holders were going to young's daughter of the icelandic pirate party who was a major wiki leaks volunteer and she's on our board directors she'll be there as

have some a local office holders in the u.s. that are going to be working with us but also to we're also happy to buy them assistance in structuring these things figuring out how to harness their constituents out the people that that want to help with these issues and this goes for n.g.o.s nonprofits all kinds of existing institutions that are against mass surveillance buying its police states drug war you know civil rights abuses all of these groups agree that i think that they can use this to solve that big big problem the point for century which is how do you get this this huge constituency out there how do you get this this these huge numbers of well there who agree with you and want to help but they're not giving up the not being given the up and has to do so that's the major problem trying to solve across the board and i think this pursuance will lose will make it easier and should i just ask you given that your media seems obsessed by one particular issue. how did russia hack your elections that seems to be the main issue in cable news in your country when you

think they they pay more attention to that question than this battle for democracy you thing to be have plannings whatever whatever a major issue comes up that has partisan elements. and we're pretty complex you're going to see a lot of poor coverage from the u.s. that's not unique to this situation i don't know of any well informed servers who have claimed that bush actually hacked the election there were certainly some some claims early on that perhaps certain servers have been hacked those claims were dismissed to my knowledge i think the key issue that's been concentrated on is what relationship to trump but ocracy has with the putin kleptocracy and beyond that what's certain groups some of these companies like a magenta leather gun palance or what role they may have had in what i think are not entirely new methods of disrupting elections or putting out its information they're sort of they're sort of taking advantage of the ability of the internet to mass to do on a large scale what used to be do it on

a small scale and that's and that's not unique to the celeste election it's not unique to russian operations the u.s. a lot of the same knowledge of procedures that we've seen been used on twitter some of these were created and developed by the u.s. some of these companies including the ones that we exposed back in two thousand and eleven the the the really ironic thing is that the obama spawn ministration came after me so viciously for exposing a persona management bot nets you know propaganda networks using software to do mass produced propaganda on a on a very meaningful scale including including perpetrated by some of the same companies that later came up in connection with the trump because it's an election so they seem to have shot themselves in the foot by about it rather than hang it some people who are saying they just reacted as i normally do it was a blowers and try to get as much prison time as possible and that has proven not to be have been a group that you know there. barbara thank you and that's it for the show will be back on monday with an international investment bank whistleblower who calls time

on global money laundering and tax evasion until then he was out by social media with your monday already does birthday and fifty four years to the day french revolution the right to. turn down the nobel prize for literature. pranking gave americans a lot of job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i could make twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year truck so i chose to drive truck people who rushed to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold rush is very very similar. but this beautiful story ended with pollution and

devastation a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here and just slowed down so much they lost their jobs that laid off the american dream is changing that's not what it used to be. and that's a tough reality to deal with. i did the war planning for the principal force provider command in the united states military for four years i've worked on this region for years i do not understand this saudi arabia is the greatest state sponsor of terrorism in the world still today and yet we call here on that we lie when we say that we right blatantly lie when we say that and moreover we know we're lying. grim reaper of the bomb. market has appeared with this with this guy and he's talking up

the global bond market he's got it all. and it's obama apocalypse it's a tsunami bad paper and it's. going to be the greatest financial collapse hammer out love it. and you might say oh don't pound the town without a note i am told paul enough. no more i. will get. him from penn there is a trade in young girls sold into an underground sex industry sometimes by the people they trust the most. and.

prosecution will need to become almost. a full zone. where you push. the thread you'll find somebody not going to see you do i mean yeah i mean i mean political pressure on the. you know through security industry knows where to put your bundled up business models used by american corporations. please hold on could matilda's you to use. the solution. and this is. a new company saw swindle as it is just really really came to an investigative documentary. ghost war on oxy.

president trump says the u.s. is pulling out of the i.n.f. treaty with russia which requires both sides to eliminate medium range nuclear missiles. russia has violated the agreement they've been violated here for many years and we're not going to let them violate the nuclear agreement so we're going to terminate agreement we're going to pull out. saudi arabia claims that the missing journalist. was killed in a fight inside its consulate in istanbul. and a series of deadly bombings targeting polling stations across afghanistan overshadowing the country's paula mentioned election.