i am the. president trump says the u.s. is pulling out of the i.n.f. treaty with russia which requires both sides to eliminate medium range nuclear missiles. russia has violated the agreement they've been violated for many years we're not going to let them violate a nuclear agreement so we're going to terminate it we're going to. saudi arabia claims the missing journalist. was killed in a fight inside it's a consulate in istanbul. series of deadly bombings target polling stations across afghanistan overshadowing the country's parliament election. the latest on the news stories of course you can head to our to dot com coming up now

a palestinian journalist who knew the jamal khashoggi is the guest on going underground talking about his friends tragic death in istanbul and if you're watching in the u.k. sputnik is also discussing the case and how it is affecting global attitudes to saudi arabia. you're watching going underground on the seventh anniversary of the nato backed killing of more coming up on the show who is a major talk about human rights in the case of jamal khashoggi a lifelong friend of a saudi dissident and fight for the liberation of palestine and i'm telling you meet on crimes against humanity. in texas to talk to award winning ex-con big brown hounded. by the f.b.i.

for rejecting a brave new world that's all coming up in the show but first today is seven years since the leader of africa's richest defacto nation was killed with u.k. backing here was the reaction of the woman who could right now be president of the usa we came we saw he died. clinton nato nation media and to resume support at the end of libya's government even as they profess to love this towering african hero no god. saw what. they hit there is no reason whatsoever. why any hesitation. that the human rights as being demanded in south africa but if the tories and liberals helped kill mandela's comrade in arms seven years ago today that all

appears forgotten in today's house of commons aside from bracks it though one m.p. did feel that u.k. and israeli oppression this week should be condemned by to resume and pm queues with the prime minister make it clear to the prime minister of israel but this is occupied territory to refute g.'s protected people whose forcible recruit removal would be as the united nations has stated constitute i was very calm michael didn't mention u.k. backing injuries i'm a julie said nothing about this week's gaza dead referring to question one particular settlement once again cool on the israeli government not to go ahead with its plans demolish the village and increasing its school and displace its residents just a bit of displacement for not more than two hundred dead since the great return much began no mention of u.k. arms sales to israel that reached a record high just before prince william's visit to israel joining me now is palestinian born journalist as i am to me he was good friends with jamal. and spoke

to him hours before he was allegedly killed and dismembered in the saudi consulate in turkey thanks for coming on the washington post publish what they purportedly said was the last column of your friend and then focus his attention on the muted response to the deaths of journalists in the middle east. he belatedly of a point in the sense that you can us back countries of been killing journalists for years what makes your friends his death different atrocities have been committed by humans throughout our history. there are atrocities and deserve to be condemned but some of our cities. have a special status. as nerdish has to several factors that make a treaty different from anything else the fact that he was said that this was a set up. fact that it happened in

a consulate where these things don't usually happen i mean if you want john to murder a critic you could hire an assassin or do it much more cleanly for it to happen inside the consulate for it to happen in a consulate in istanbul. turkey and saudi arabia on not on very good terms for it to happen someone who writes a column in the washington post that column which has damaged. and when someone is a conference of so that they are damaged is end of or to create to present himself as a reformer because. he was telling the world that this was not a reformer this was a brutal dictators and one caller managed to defeat the millions of dollars of common sense and man was was being the brutality the dismembering of of this. betrayed friend of ours. collectively it makes

a difference the fact that he is a journalist the world of journalism has been on its feet since then saying this should not be tolerated there should be no cover up and that's why trump is under a lot of pressure not to not to be involved in a cover up or although he would love to. crown prince more than someone obviously denies any any allegation like that here but my point is israel has killed journalists. as we've seen them on camera and american citizens like rachel corrie have been killed by say other countries in the middle east israel it can't just be that he was a great journalist and he wrote for the washington post some suggest because he's a journalist the world of journalism is what generates pressure on policymakers i mean look at the woodrow. those now by businesses by politicians from the

investment conference in saudi arabia this would not have happened had it not been for the media the media is actually. waiting to see how these people are behaving and they're going to have to have a go at them and when we talk about israel israel is a is an occupation power and it's a brutal occupation or occupiers are brutal by nature they will not tolerate anyone seeking freedom from their occupation. but at the same time there is a creation of the western world. if the last colonial project that we have tell me about the man himself he was a hero was previously close to the saudi royal family. and he was a good friend of osama bin laden's well as our beloved and was a good friend of so many people he was a good friend of the americans he was a good friend of the family context is very important here because when osama bin laden went to afghanistan and forth with the mujahideen that was an american war

against the soviet union everybody welcomed it and so that's history but for a more recent part of our history really always insisted until the day he died and i had a discussion with him only hours before he disappeared he insisted he wasn't. an opposition member against the royal family he was just a critic of some of the policies adopted by the crown prince he was very anxious that the country was taking a turn into what is worse he was he was afraid or he was concerned about its future that's why he wrote what he wrote of he was never a member of the opposition he worked for them he worked with to kill faisal when he was head of intelligence he worked for him when he became a massive they're also there to be in london. and then in washington i remember.

once he was the sped by his government two meeting in beirut in two thousand and five in which i was involved that brought together members of the leadership of hamas and very senior former members. of the u.s. administration and some british governments his government thought this was an important meeting and sent to attend it with us so he was really very close do you think he felt immune to any kind of threats from. the present leadership in saudi arabia he knew if he went back to saudi arabia he would have been arrested and probably sent behind bars like the like some of his other friends that's why the lingo decided not in the ritz girl to actually be worse yes not just that it's got them a couple of months earlier in september. economists scholars academics

journalists who simply did not speak were arrested and sent to prison and now some of them are likely to be sentenced to death but he never but never occurred to him that he would be assassinated or even kidnapped. while living in washington or in istanbul that thought never came to or came to us we never thought so that maybe it would do something like this it will start a can you buy some surprise the civil society reaction after all after nine eleven saudi u.k. and saudi u.s. relations weren't particularly affected there was no great effect of that there was the hasn't been impact on u.k. saudi relations after we hear of the slaughter in yemen twenty million people in that in the world's worst humanitarian crisis we're surprised when you heard that liam fox story is amazing minister would be going to a saudi investment conference i was expecting him to withdraw because of the pressure from the media on him now see saudi arabia the difference they're made to

so the idea is that he started practicing politics and unprecedented thuggish way his war on yemen his campaign against carter. and his incarceration of his own cousins of his cause his. siege of their well of. them believe there was a bad time some of those relatives were what about him i mean he gave he gave tom half a trillion dollars what about you know it's really it's so thugs in saudi arabia since one of them someone started running. started becoming a burden on the west it is a clear build in the west now turned they don't want to see this because he was benefiting he was telling his constituency back in the in the united states that he

was being able to bring in billions of dollars from the saudis so that was the justification for whatever they did now the atrocities in yemen are for everybody there to see the this option of harmony within the gulf area and seem to care about that drains away said britain will still continue selling arms to say that bus atrocity was seventy schoolchildren were killed often saying actually more british lives will be threatened if we don't sell the saudis weapons because terrorism the factories threatened on britain's streets if we don't work with it is true governments have interests and governments pursue their interests and they convince their electorate that without this money you cannot have jobs this is a sinister game they play but look at civil society. the media human rights organizations n.g.o.s have increasingly being been putting pressure on western

governments that this cannot continue like this when he said he would do the job in yemen in just a few days and it's been years now with with a tall with a death on the rise the boycott against cutter and what it did to even western interests in the region. and now the as a nation in such a brutal manner of jamal fashionably so increasingly he his cover is being removed he's been exposed or have to wait zero and i have to ask you of course this week has again been deadly in gaza the gaza division of the i.d.f. got a letter of commendation for its actions in gaza your thoughts about what's happening there if you look at the way the israelis deal with the palestinians is just a another imperialist colonial power they want to maintain their occupation they don't learn from history anything of us is getting stronger hamas is not its

best moments at the time that at the time being because of the because of the boycott because of the siege imposed on gaza but hamas is still there and its credibility has not been affected because the athenians look at a mass and look at other than a scene in factions and they can see who is holding fast and who is not increasingly weaker. i want our buses almost finished almost just as i'm jimmy thank you after the break award winning self-proclaimed hacktivist on his story from prison to public good all the civil coming up about to have going underground.

and your my t.l. . found out that. there is a trade in young girls sold into an underground sex industry sometimes but the people they trust the most. welcome back well there are many reports from the turkish media over the alleged killing of jamal khashoggi and those familiar with the case say it was organized by saudi arabia's intelligence services but in the u.k. g c h q's about surveillance under the water to resume was found to be illegal by

the european court of human rights but before moscow resident snowden dropped the mike on mess of ailments there was barack brown he served time for his efforts and was hounded by the f.b.i. he now joins me via skype from san antonio in texas thanks so much brett for coming on just start by telling us about the pursuance project which i understand you've launched in the past few weeks was pursuing. progress for about two years now ever since i was who is from prison after my four year students involved students. from having a investigated some of the same issues that are on the u.k. right now a lot of surveillance of what not. once is a framework or what we call process democracy it allows individuals with notice or pretty soon relationships to congregate online in this ecosystem that we're overseeing and better do since that was the center of things we've been doing in the past ten years in digital activism and transparency activism if make age. has changed things this is next to extent that it's not yet i think really been

realized were understood by even most educated observers and we hope to a change that over the next few years a story of how you end up in jail is quite a long one just briefly i mean over here that we people live with anonymous mosques on guy fawkes night in november they raided your place for documents including ones an anonymous many others and you were put in jail what for a sharing of a link that alone holding those dogs out of it was a rather it's a rich tapestry ok i was i was that the search warrants they delivered when they first read me listed a number of the illicit intelligence contracting firms that my group project d.m. had been investigating that's h.b. gary palin's or firms have been discovered to be engaging with the u.s. government's assistance in some cases in a legal and indefensible attacks on journalists and activists in the us and brought up so my case because of that it was a blatant instance of

a tally ation for marc crowdsource research my general projects that obviously backfired on them and that in trouble a lot of the more controversial charges including as you said the linking charges which were the most controversial but also kind of illustrated how frightened certain states and states actors are of this new trend towards individuals building procedural structures online they can develop their own. structures and ways were been impossible twenty years ago and that's something that is i think it's evident that this is challenging to existing power structures around the world but if u.s. authorities aim to frighten you surely people are going to be frightened by your example and think even sharing a link. can put them behind bars early that's always part of the of the intent when they go after whistleblowers sleepers activists revolutionaries and try to very

visibly. you know subject them to prison much much better than keep the murderer space that is absolutely intent we use we have to make sure that doesn't work obviously another great thing about my case is that it didn't work and rather than silence me by voice in ways that quite frankly i was not competent enough to achieve myself do you see any particular reason then why mainstream media as it's called is not more aware of championing say stories like mass surveillance i mean to resume has just been found in breach of articulate of the here and prevent european convention on human rights of a mass of valence it's not made such a big deal of it in elite me here over there here having worked with the media in that having been a part of the media for most of my adult life i was a freelancer having been the subject of media coverage it's increasingly my belief is that a lot of this is structural a lot of it has to deal tickle in the us in the us media culture with really the amoral and this sort of vapid mentality that

a great number of editors and producers and writers have is and even good journalists even journalists who really care about these issues they face challenges they have to have a newspaper they have to have some advance and even when that event comes you know it's reported on in a few publications well that doesn't really take doesn't doesn't really cause any any long term pressure on these institutions in the first place so unless there is sustained attention of the sort that would also rounds out other issues that brown's other important things without that the state attention nothing is really accomplished and that's what really it was really my concern bill back to eleven years ago and it's why i first got involved in activism in some ways experimental methods in the first place i felt that if we could simply harness citizens who want to stand these issues that want to understand them and put them in a situation. where they themselves it's the states. then we would see fundamental changes across the board on all issues but you're working on geopolitical issues we had cables obviously from wiki leaks no one ever mentions snowden in moscow these

days much julian assange goes in arbitrary detention here in london. even if pursuance reveals some startling connections in geopolitics do you think it will be picked up this time around you know it's always hard to say there's always an arbitrary arbitrariness to what gets picked up on you know i'm constantly surprised at what the american people for instance what they end up caring about what they clean up is missing it's always a crapshoot and so you have somebody uncertain factors whenever whenever something like this comes out you know that the revealing of leaks the obtaining of information that's always just a small part of the battle the real battle is convincing the public that there is a reason for the big and so changing that that's that's a big part of of ensuring that when things come out when we learn more about the d.c.h. we have made but the j.c.h. going back years years of involving some of these same abuses in d.c. h.q.

documents were among those that snowden actually revealed years ago and it's going room well pointed out one of those documents illustrated the ways that the burial lists it is a mission now for british citizens and u.s. citizens involved in the entire legal anonymous but just a hack attack of people cell phones these things came out then didn't make it impact then it's hard to say whether or not these things are going to all made in some real response by the public or by office holders in the u.k. is it just hard to say the former head of g c h he was on this show and obviously said the actions were all benign as you'd expect him to form a weekly leaks pardon of the guardian has now revealed and i don't want to obviously we don't want to frighten whistleblowers they reveal that for decades the british secret services have been infiltrating peace activists the anti-apartheid movement ale b.g. now to be activists green activists just endless number of organizations so what

can people do to evade that kind of secret service survey lintz of a more arguably a more sinister kind with fake i.d.'s and so on. but the most exciting thing to me about that c.h.p. you are history about if you're the implication in the u.k. is that as the guardian noted the vast majority of these groups were left wing groups and as extraordinarily over overreact to left wing groups even those i don't really do much much value to you left or right or anybody else. people have to be aware of that this is a cat and mouse game that will always occur regardless of how much better we get we get online security and that sort of thing there is always human intelligence there's always vectors for them simple as oceans and that's what pursuits project we have a number of tools in place whereby users depending on their needs security while so this be used by people facing even much even worse repression than defects in the

u.s. and u.k. making sure that they have the ability to understand what the what the history of these practices are and reacts to how they evolve while so always remembering that you were never a hundred percent safe if you're engaged in trying to change things meaning of political associations we've now heard that the atlantic council has been involved in this facebook push to shut down what they call in authentic facebook pages you seem remarkably optimistic after all you've been through do you think that in a sense that means the end of facebook rather than the end of. what they judge is authentic well we're seeing the culmination for the coming at a number of issues here obviously the internet has a long history of being free and an unknown soldier and as the culture changes for these companies to take a stronger hand that's what isn't true and even the government taking stronger hand you know a facebook of course is a right but. you know even as it expands it becomes something more it's

a utility it's still not a utility is my argument so they certainly have the right to do whatever they want i would i would invite people who are serious about their internet use and but they're still looks to consider. other options pursuits again allows people to do that within their own organizations within their own entity that they create on our platform and that's one way of solving the problem but it's not to have a sort of core solution there's always going to be these these issues always in to be these conflicts between you know letting letting things go right on their own letting ecosystems and and thousands of letters bloom on the one hand and getting people feeling as if they're safe or well informed on the other and facebook and engineer facebook is not going to solve that problem if there are progressive politicians around the world who are interested some of them saying the facebook is a utility and groups like that should be under democratic control is the pursuance going to help politicians who ask for your help when the creating new policies

should they be elected to office we're already working with some office holders and some previous office holders we're going to young's daughter of the icelandic pirate party who was a major wiki leaks volunteer and she's on our board rector's she'll be there as we have some a local office holders in the u.s. that are going to be working with us but also to we're also happy to buy them assistance in structuring these things figuring out how to harness their constituents out the people that that want to help with these issues and this goes for n.g.o.s nonprofits all kinds of existing institutions that are against mass surveillance buying its police states drug war you know civil rights abuses all of these groups agree that i think that they can use this to solve that big big problem the point for century which is how do you get this this huge constituency out there how do you get this this these huge numbers of well there who agree with you and want to help but they're not giving up but not being given the up and has to do so that's the major problem trying to solve across the board and i think this pursuance will lose will make it easier and should i just ask you given that your

media seems obsessed by one particular issue. how did russia hack your elections that seems to be the main issue in cable news in your country when you think they they pay more attention to that question than this battle for democracy used him to be have plannings whatever whenever a major issue comes up that has partisan elements. and we're it's complex you're going to see a lot of poor coverage from the u.s. that's not unique to this situation i don't know of any well informed servers who have claimed that bush actually hacked the election there were certainly some some claims early on that perhaps certain servers have been hacked those claims are dismissed to my knowledge i think the key issue that's been concentrated on is what relationship to trump but ocracy has with the putin kleptocracy and beyond that what's certain groups some of these companies like a magenta leather gun palance or what role they may have had in what i think are

not entirely new methods of disrupting elections or putting on some promotion you're sort of they're sort of taking advantage of the ability of the internet to mass to do on a large scale what used to be do it on a small scale and that's and that's not unique to the celeste election it's not unique to russian operations the u.s. a lot of the same knowledge of procedures that we've seen been used on twitter some of these were created and developed by the u.s. some of these companies including the ones that we exposed back in two thousand and eleven the the the really ironic thing is that the obama spawn ministration came after me so viciously for exposing a persona management bot nets you know propaganda networks using software to do mass produced propaganda on a on a very meaningful scale including including perpetrated by some of the same companies that later came up in connection with the trump because it's an election so they seem to have shot themselves in the foot by about it rather than hang it

some were saying they just reacted as they normally do it was a blowers and try to get as much of prison time as possible and that has proven not to be have been a group that you know there. barbara thank you and that's it for the show will be back on monday with an international investment bank whistleblower who calls time on global money laundering and tax evasion until then he was not a meeting with you on monday already does birthday and fifty four years to the day french revolutionary right to. turn down the nobel prize for literature.

the grim reaper of the bond market has appeared with this scene with this guy and he's looking at the global bond market he's got all. this obama apocalypse it's a tsunami bad paper and it's. going to be the greatest financial collapse and her lover. who. i know my t.l. some talent. come up last.