two worlds apart seventy years into the war in afghanistan the country seems first stop in the repetitive cycle of violence and elections assassinations on three conciliation talks began the changing world around afghanistan finally and not get all of these beaten and extremely bloody track well to discuss that i'm now joined by ahmed wali masood a former afghan diplomat and president of the knesset foundation mr masood it's good to talk to you this evening thank you very much for your time thank you thank you now whenever i look at the afghan politics always overcome by the feeling of deja vu you have this same scenario playing out over and over again the with some whole promise of peace on the eve of the elections crushed by the absolute hopelessness and despair after wards is that your perception as well and if so what explains this compulsive dysfunction well as you said rightly that for the past seventeen years the people of afghanistan have been looking for peace but so far

after seventeen years despite f. or soft international community despite the aim to bring peace despite their promise to the afghan people to bring peace unfortunately i have not been a boat bring peace under the contrary you can see that in afghanistan that terrorism and the taleban they have come out and i believe that their reason for their failure to throw in the beginning we did not have a comprehensive roadmap for peace and i want to start and yet despite all this insecurity over a four million afghans went to the polls over the weekend to lag their poll in terence reach if accurate is a very high turnout for a country where voting is associated with such a high life race given the scale of this year's election violence almost eighty people killed around five hundred wounded do you think it was worthwhile. well as

you sit right into this by going up to seventeen years we still do not have a proper election we do not maintain security for the people but of course we do appreciate it did that massive coming off the people to the border station that is being appreciated despite all the trips people came out to determine their own future their own decision but it to save time do what they find to talk about that yes we want to come to go to democracy but unfortunately under part of the election commission that was catastrophic on the part of to governor i'm going to talk about a song that bush got just rafique but unfortunately as i mentioned before that so far for the past seventeen years we have not followed the national agenda and that's not a road map what i've found is something that is why you can see that i lecture after seventy years wrapped up all by your bias now speaking about the elections i'm going to stuns the international partners still insist on holding them almost

religiously despite numerous instances of fraud violence intimidation about a third a fragile station sanders failed to open during the last parliamentary vote how we reached a point when the democratic rachael's more important than the free and informed choice that they are supposed to facilitate what i do believe does of course democracy in afghanistan is an issue that essential it does not mean that it will proceed does not work in afghanistan what it means is that they govern afghanistan especially the leadership of the country did not believe didn't go not willing to really go to dot sort of democratic process here the others as you mentioned before that i government which have come out of the throat and itself of course that has got them sewn conned into pendent commission i see and so therefore that is the government doesn't want to which are making i heard of. i wrote about democracy

does not the people of afghanistan be but i hope it isn't how plans like usual that they can come about despite all the threats they can't get out and they want to vote well my question is not really about whether democracy is suitable for afghanistan who am i to even ask god i'm asking whether it actually leaves ob the procedures the electoral procedures that you guys have actually leave op to the standard definition of democratic procedures and it's interesting that the foreign policy magazine just the other day reported that in there and he said patient massive fraud was diplomats have changed their language and instead of calling for free and fair elections then i was talking about elections whose results are quote unquote acceptable to afghans you are an afghan you come from a very respected family what is acceptable to you. there except about as well as we all wish. for a fair and democratic election for afghanistan and independent commission to carry out invited to election in afghanistan government which is what i read it organized

it but election for afghanistan the whole procedure as you just did to write the whole procedure for election has gone wrong people enough want to start with people who voted people who feel that they are successful in the election people who feel that they have not been successful all of the decision boys are saying that this election was another good election and therefore. these are not the sort of legitimate part of it and i want to something that is a problem now you seem to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the afghan government but i want you for its international partners are also at least partly to blame because the western approach to afghanistan in particular the american approach to afghanistan has been there a little bit contradictory because on the one hand washington supports democratic governance it publicly indorse is elections but on the other hand. it embraces strongman the for the sake of sick. and i wonder if you can really have bulls

democracy and this oversized reliance on the warlords in another part of sun as i mentioned before that democracy does work in afghanistan whether this war or the other side it does work in afghanistan my job to talk to people of france and be able to go to the path of democracy i support of the militia community is constant of course they do want to see it said sex and sex and i want to sun do some hostile or almost seventeen years often votes in afghanistan they are somehow getting exhausted that's why in afghanistan yeah democracy do not decide to come in and cough up on a sunday stability do not do a kind of exhausted but we all know god does not decide to fold up the afghan people what is happening that chooses their own leadership their own system of governance and i find a son is somebody just off i want to start. somehow. if you revealed the pros of the immigrants in afghanistan that is why the international community they

want to just do stuff to see the sun should open action can take but is not want to so they can come out of this gun problem as such but when you come back when you see inside afghanistan the people often said they were determined to go to depart of democracy only faction which are resisting democracy if i decide that it is the taliban and terrorism let me again focus on these approach security approach of focusing on on the strong man because one of such strong man general abdul razak was assassinated just this past week in an attack which called into question the security of the entire saga in afghanistan and i understand the western countries may be relying on these strong men as i as i put it out of necessity it's an ugly necessity you need to provide some basic security but don't you think that this whole approach comes with its own security risk because from what i understand now the the future of calm there may be. the entire afghanistan is now up in the

air yes of course the rules have been very important yes assignation off. to killing off general draws a cop in a portent and for the past seven peters we have you seen that some very important prominent commanders and i got on t.v. what is you could talk afghanistan i guess the top one dad being assassinated one by one that has been a chain off isolation off killing for for the past seventeen years but it does seem time it does not work break the weight off the afghan people down here. unfortunately what is happening with this pattern off isis a nation one by one of course it's weakening he had enough on a sunday speaking to all good to go to the book to people to go to do it claiming that they are somehow sidelining to so-called warlords but the story is that this is not the war but this is afghanistan as in this a state of the war so you can you must have the people who could say that this terrorism here and have been resisting terrorism for the past years and years

unfortunately they govern top of one is that have not been able to really carry that sort of is to do to bring all of them together under one umbrella or so-called national resistance here that is what prisons have been imported and last is being missed in afghanistan while with all due respect mr mustard i would not downplay the role of a strong man in the afghan politics for example the slain general. is believed to be to have been pretty instrumental both for the election of former president hamid karzai and to the election of the current president got me do you think he's elimination will change the nature all for the layout of the afghan politics in any way especially on the eve of the presidential elections that are set to take place next step april what of course it has already affected the election in afghanistan or time to what has been plus one for one week that has already affected. afghanistan but basic point if it comes under security to site

like as has been lost general does of course is he couldn't deal with the south don't focus on at this war brought stuff up on a site that has been threatened by the taliban and by tourism there's no doubt about such things but what is the political impact of general residents getting this concept of course that has affected their part of education but in the long term of course plotted to kill a side effect would be countered by the us part of the security is constant so long as this situation have not been astonished so long as we do not to stop this decision instead so we always miss general rosa can decide to start a security just concern now as since i already mentioned the names of both the current and the former presidents i think both of them represent a trend that's been also observed in some other countries where they have an american presence that is when. a problem and then national figures who have made a career in the west come back to the country or are brought back to the country to

implement some sort of positive democratic change i know that you've been a fairly critical of that phenomenon what's wrong with it what he said during their . time when day soviet union was here or what happened who really bush waited is so obvious who got inside afghanistan to bring them to soft wasn't of course inside afghanistan that was delayed as should ask the leadership who persuaded them to come to afghanistan that is why for the ninety as a deal what inside afghanistan that was catastrophic us was waterstone's sort of exactly the same way there are some that's going to break and what bush waited and that becomes a president that temptation of community interest not on his son was doing that they can represent the interest of the american left on a sub but when we see the past seventeen years they have not produced not deliver their with which is wrong so that is why we do this pattern must change now both pres. gandhi and president karzai before seemed used to have three d.

a good relationship with the washington at the beginning of that terms which seems to have changed by the end of the terms what do you think explains this change of heart on the part of the african leadership and why is it so consistent starting on a high note and adding on a note on a low notes but that americans what i do believe deaf to lead issue was not able to deliver on one side by the data as they claimed the situation in afghanistan is defended and that probably added to mission community they are not they were not helping them as much as they did that day expected to help so that is why the relation deteriorated but i do believe that media got this step and walked off did i studied this you need to ship the the ship really really came into some sort of consensus with gascón people i do believe that we could have served our national interests better with wind and interaction with the international community i do

believe that that we could have applied to many catastrophe and has for the past seventeen years but of course you did this not topic but let me say one more thing about what is it an issue that can be discussed especially this on a specific countries off or did will have their own interest or good deed with their own it is so as you can piss but what is it all or part of all we really kind of got is giving us sort of definition of our own interest to coincide to good together with interest when the interest of that issue can we talk of solo so for us but as we know they're not going to need this cheap house not deify that does sort of interest does sordo definition to really convince the international community that we do have in our poll on point our own national interest well listen i said we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned.

join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. prosecution will need to become almost in. a softball designed to take over you push us off the threat of fines. by the number one place you do i mean yeah i mean i mean did our political pressure on the bill do i need him called old enough to securely jenison knows where to put your kind of business models he was my american corporations jadhav was incomplete is sold on good mental disease as m.p. use the controls on the scene and the solution.

lies up in association with. newton he saw swindle as it is just simply his or deleting to an investigative documentary. ghost war on obscene. welcome back to worlds apart by the muscled former afghan diplomat and president of the am i said foundation mr moussa just before the break we started talking about the afghan numerous afghan governments and their ability or inability to deliver on their promises and the united states back in two thousand and fourteen was very

have only involved in called linked together the current unity or some would say disunity government which was fairly unpopular as far as i understand among the people but still how together do you think putting together and not a unity government would be a good idea come two thousand and nineteen i do believe that in afghanistan what was needed it was unity going to force the national unity government in afghanistan if it was agreed on what was needed on the situation inside going to set off afghanistan would have worked for example we do have indeed unity government sort of contract agreement between the two parties which came together made to coalition and then if you need to go to. that context we're not implemented that is why we concede to failure of so-called the unity government i do believe that if one is sunday unity going to have not been formed it has not been formed. i don't stop to

you need to go to how it's not been implemented flood example what was it it was said within two years or the first two years on the unity government debt should have been a really good guide to change a system of afghanistan the political system a structure of hope wasn't that did not happen so therefore in many. yes this is going to have a field that was not able to really establish the troop and formidable unity government well odd that the unity government of the united states house put together was also very demonstrative least sidelines when the united states under donald trump decided to engage in direct talks with the taliban do you think that it was a good decision especially in behind side of this latest attack in qana the hideout was claimed by the taliban and that killed not only the general who went unmentioned but also wounded a high profile american commander i do believe when we talk about peace in afghanistan to peace have to come from within afghanistan of course our friends and

the national committee they can help peace process in afghanistan but what is far more important to private is you know afghanistan is the peace have to come from within afghanistan with the kind says this off the afghan people fly zone but when we want to make peace with the taliban then of course we need to have to give a clear agenda of who makes peace with whom one of the we have talked about enough about his son of course that was the old resistance forces what d.d. before afghanistan they were not part of the peace process this is do we want to talk about us or what makes up more than half of the population of the us i don't know part of the process this is the civil society if i want to talk which divide is completely different from what i want to talk about doing this is not part of the process so therefore if these detainees are not taken into account so of course that's not peace and i want to but it decision time we do appreciate the air force out there that it should be meaty to read to push for peace in afghanistan we do appreciate that didn't go and said we want to talk with the top button but the

brighter the air the position of the peace process must lie with it that's going to be well mr president no that's your late brother ahmed shah masood a resistance hero from many afghans during the soviet intervention and a down during the taliban advance also engaged in talks with a and. he did talk to some taliban cannot commanders he wanted that moment to be part of the political process but that never materialized because the taliban never share and he's this isn't what the political process entails and he's a vision of what afghanistan is supposed to be what can you discuss with an adversary who wants the very opposite of what you are striving for i do believe that yes absolutely you are right that by late brother masood right even he took the risk of his right to go to one after province where the leadership of thought on what it to discuss peace but when he came out he said well this is not the taliban they are not seeking for peace but even today softer almost eighteen years

since his day for the past eighteen the as yet have been some sort of a dead what is genuine or political attempt but they have made some sort of attempt to bring peace enough on a sunday that has not yet and he's out and do these it is that very first day government offices not house national road map for peace the second that talked about to be this you do not have a united leadership so therefore you did not go exactly flew to talk to the target of course why pakistan was behind them they wanted the beholder to talk about it so therefore it does sort of complicate the now when we talk about the peace there are many countries were trying to bring peace and i want a son so fought the people of afghanistan is still have not saved their own what was sort of peace we want and afghanistan what it tried to say is that almost every day are trying to interpret the piece i want to send based on their own interest but so far out at the moment for the past seventy years the end just off the afghan

people have been lost it's not dead because the people of afghanistan on the other involved that you mentioned pakistan and i know that your brother attributed the strength self the taliban at the time to pakistan is interference pakistan now has a new leader in iran how and i know that you found he's rhetoric on their relationship. it's been afghanistan and pakistan quite encouraging hasn't moved beyond wars though. dissenting leadership of course the f b i he has been saying that he is for the peace in afghanistan he say that despair for the match for the interest of both countries but so far i was today when i talked to some people from the peace council they traveled to pakistan they were supposed to meet with some put it together parties who are the minister of talk about but this said that when we talk with all of this sort of black all of the plot and all what was seized from pakistan that was not there anymore so i unfortunately and i find that peace cannot come away and i sort of fashion that we are for it so far we do not see any signs

yet that you speak very passionately both here and during your previous interviews against the afghan version all five dentity politics i know you tweeted the other day that it's time to switch from the question of who. still in etc to the question of what some sort of call an agenda for all ethnicities for all clans that make up your country that's easier said than down though especially when the country so fragmented how would you do that well so far for the purpose of india. who was that duckworth put up on a sun did talk first we have to bring somebody either to go to cut up on his son so he can be the president and we can conduct our business through him it did not work then somebody and on and off did genius off on his side and then he left out that i stopped but it passed five years we can see the catastrophe what's happening here but now decide who does not work who which party which it misses the these does not

work in afghanistan all how failed we have to really go for what because if one isn't one that can unify afghanistan west can bring afghanistan together to save the country from disgraces that is the key. but so far for the past of india's international community have not invested on what all of the time you have invested or what the dishes the what their son was that he is close to us are not competent to have failed now speaking about international communities investments in afghanistan you're leading a charitable foundation so let me ask you specifically about foreign aid to afghanistan a few years ago the world bank reported that only thirty eight sounds of every a dollar spent in afghanistan actually reaches the economy much of it goes back to donor countries in the form of huge consultancy fees construction profits what have you ease eight a blessing or

a curse for your country whether that is the money which comes a dam up on sunday and goes back to spend on something which is not beneficial dawson does corruption that's a crime and much of that money which has been. donated or if you've been given and the democrats want to sign that have been inside to govern to set up a fight i want to start all outside that has gone completely i would people to help us and have not benefited from doubt but that's is an obvious fact that is why we see that corruption as sole outstanding i just want to go to this office has concept as well as i support of those who came and do it involved with some sort of corruption would be going to have consented to take that money back to one of some well mr ms so that i think it's very easy to blame corruption on the afghan government in fact everybody's doing that but i'm specifically asking about the

role of the international community and international donors because when you can make such a handsome caught on providing consultancy or unnecessary infrastructure to afghanistan the you may develop. a strong material interest in keeping it as unstable how. so substantial do you think special interests financial special interests in keeping afghanistan so reliant on foreign aid whether that's exactly i do absolutely a good deal with that bit consulting fee or some other advisers who came to afghanistan and do what they were in practice with the government puffed up on a sunday took their money and some of their money got up on to something that has been decades for the past seventy s. and i've got a son and i do believe that. that is something that had to order to people out of office and have not benefited from that situation that is why after seventeen years we can see that david pull over to life as is going up and many of us

guns what company no under poverty does it all reduce a few people with water. inside to go to all excited by those who can far outside the concept of death benefit from dot trent well if i'm not mistaken the poverty levels in afghanistan have once again exceeded fifty percent of the population now this lack of statesmanship that the a mansion and the iran seeking behavior among the countries elites how long been recognized as a problem and on the eve of every election they are candidates pledging to put an end to that what are the chances of the change actually happening comedy of presidential elections next april i do believe this election day but we did a show and it was a good examination of the failure to hop off to go to top up on a sunday but a descent go to base management of the commission. and depend upon it going to show up on its own i do believe that from now on people will decide i don't think if

that sort of bottom will work in the presidential election in six months time i do believe that many politicians and ordered people off on sunday would pressurize they go to that as well as deal what they quizzed on this if you wanted to change department because if despised and was deceived sort. system as implemented then to position action and six months time then generally a catastrophe in afghanistan but they believe that this is not going to have to deploy in addition to more to say that while i'm here to morrow they can make a deal and decline going to go to or they can be satisfied with the post i did this is the fate of the people i want to jump on a sunday at the moment after five years of difficulties government has come to a stage whether we make it or break it that is not because that's not good but addition how do you say to good display of that but this is the fate of the afghan people well mr mrs we have to leave it there but i really appreciate your being with us today thank you very much thank you thank you i'm crazy out here is to keep

this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on worlds apart. on this unique edition of crosstalk we review a new and very important book john mearsheimer the great delusion liberal dreams and international realities it's a real punch. cranking gave americans a lot of new job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i

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my age. there should be. the headlines packages containing suspected explosive devices the plan for leading democrats including killer clinton and barack obama as well as to c.n.n. months being described as an act of terror. against transatlantic allies canada and the u.s. the pair unwilling to reconsider weapons sales to saudi arabia in the wake of the killing of became dims dissident journalist jamal khashoggi. on a blog amid two tins raise concerns over the future of new.