i want to be rich. to want to be close which is what before three of the more people. interested in the water. there should. be. the headlines packages containing suspected explosive devices are planted a leading democrat in c.q. think hillary clinton and barack obama as well as to the end then must be described as an act of terror. against transatlantic allies canada and the us the unwilling to reconsider weapons sales to saudi arabia in the wake of the killing of became dims dissident journalist jamal khashoggi. on

a plot to me at putin's raise concerns over the future of nuclear weapons treaties with the us saying if there are bound and it would result in nothing but a new arms race. you can find those stories in full and plenty more on our website r.t. dot com will be back with the world news updates in about an hour in the meantime for you. below in welcome to cross talk for all things considered i'm peter lavelle in this unique edition of cross-talk we review a new and very important book john mearsheimer the great delusion liberal dreams and international realities it's a real bombshell. cross

talking the great delusion liberal dreams and international realities i'm joined by my guest here in moscow mark slaughter he's an international affairs and security analyst we also have dmitri bobbitt he's a political analyst we spoke nick international and we have wendy's and he is a professor at the higher school of economics as well as arthur of the decay of western civilization and resurgence of russia origin across the rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok glenn let me go to you first here i'm really big fan of your summer's work he is a realist what does that mean. all in political theory to move to main theories the political realist believes. to explain how states behave this see this essential being dependent on external situations so there's no good state or bad state everyone based on the international distribution of power so and this

contrast with the liberal theory in which we look more at the internal characteristics of state so whether or not there are democratic if they're if they're of economic interdependence if the humans rise to seriousness a human right. such you have these two theories which competes against each other to explain how the world works when you show americans as liberal germany and he says it's doomed to fail mark you know this is this is in many ways maritimers magnum opus of what is now been several decades of his fear of critique of u.s. foreign policy basically since the end of the cold war and how it has emerged not only as as the hedge in modern terms of power but it has quite i would say selectively use that power to try to reshape the world in its own image rather than say the more real this notion of ballot. power centers and trying to

present another head to mine from emerging regionally it has delved into in an ideology of exceptionalism which which mirrors heimer identifies as just another type of of nationalism and he also specifically addresses the way that the liberals have not only you know dominated you know the foreign policy in in terms of action but the inner circle such that there is real it's no longer even really accepted now in the discourse it's something that's taught in universities and mediately rejected in favor of you know liberalism and it's. funny to see it on the other hand the neocons have exhibited this whole liberal approach to international relations is going to mention that it sounds nice and warm and fuzzy yeah we you know if you have the power why not try to support human rights if you have the power and how fair trading relationships but it never works out that way

mearsheimer would argue that makes things even worse because these end up being wars of choice. well i think there. is very soft spoken he stays more or less in the fray you meet him but he had to be really a medically correct language i mean he germany yes well i think that what he calls governing you know this is from my review of the book by the american conservative . you know. they called it at pointed at the heart of america's going in feel or syfy progressive for liberalism well i think that you should call a spade a spade progressive liberalism what all true liberalism as i call it now it's not even a governing philosophy in the states it's the ideology which determines the openly the state's action which determines education. arts sports and of course foreign borders and. of course military so when for example a writes

about the united states or visit the state's militaristic behavior is almost certain to end up threatening its own liberal values liberalism abroad leads to illiberal is a pool and of court well it's not just the liberals you know put in people like chelsea manning in jail for life you know organizing walled white cheney's for for edward snowden this is not a liberal and this is the ideology that mearsheimer is criticizing promotes for example. the war in syria and promotes the legal regime change in in ukraine in two thousand and fourteen because if you look at the liberal gemini in it's really surprising to me that you when you get into an argument with a counter position to the things i just mentioned they all have this defacto default position of i mean even liberal person because i'm not going to project my

values i mean they can't even they're not even self aware of that ok go ahead right now there's nothing democracy human rights these are all good things but they have to be based on power foundations otherwise this is essentially from the realist mind at least what drives international politics mark mentioned at the realist to some extent been purged out of the discipline from after the cold war and this there were systemic incentives for this of course because during the cold war it made sense to look at things through this bottles of power however if you would still follow this theory after the cold war then you would have to see the west was now overwhelmingly powerful the soviet union didn't exist anymore if we then followed this theory then logic suggest we should start to pull back especially if this is dismantled nato which is what the section of people are commercial or walt waltz and others have argued however then how this is to make incentives for liberal schools. no actually we create peace by expanding that because we're

promoting democracy we're promoting human rights. we should actually go and topple governments around the world because they're promoting democracy so also mentioned some nice idea that soon if you go out to promote democracy as a form of security because democracies apparently go don't go to war with each other not everyone benefits but at the end of the you see that it essentially undermines and the. itself in science or in the sympathy for anyone else because they get and or if you look at the no one can people here's why americans foreign policy since the end of the cold war it is just been a trail of tears for the people that are on the receiving end of it mark democracies don't go to war with each other except when they do have a u.s. attack on serbia. no i don't agree that the pursuit of democracy and human rights in international relations is any way a good thing. but it might not but i think what glenn is saying i mean if that if that can be attained ok without use of violence i mean that the and i think that

sure i should do so defending and promoting ideas it's the actions to promote democracy is that i've got a problem first of all it's obvious selectively and hypocrisy you know the u.s. is biggest allies of the middle east are the powerful liberal democracies of saudi arabia qatar and bahrain and you have. the united arab emirates so the us supplies successive liberal for regimes of liberal foreign policy the u.s. arms over seventy percent of the world's dictatorships according to u.s. researchers and they're trying to cut russia out of the remaining twenty five percent that russia and china share amongst them so you know it's it's really a case of liberal foreign policy is an exercise in a park or see it's weaponized liberalism as as a. basically

a means of demonizing propaganda for my enemies and for my dictator friends well we all see the press coverage that mahatma been sodeman any sense that it would be it's really interesting because it really isn't p.r. travel because even if it feels like iraq afghanistan syria what's going on. it's still your intentions were good ok and that's why no one loses their job and cable t.v. in the us with the first time that lofty ideas lead to the more stable results in fact that there was two wars in the life of humanity but not for years i mean the napoleonic wars which destroyed europe in the early the beginning of the nineteenth century that were all formally spread to and republican values and in lied to them and to end human use them and even weiss people like the famous german boy it even they kind of good clued into this into this trap basically i just love these this

called from. impulse is deeply wired into the liberal democracies you specially their elites and of called well this is something that a lot of muslims don't understand when the western democracies came to them with arms weapons and wars beginning from the ninety s the initial thought the crusaders are back with their christian ideas across a despite what with christian ideas with something much worse with something very very deep gauged from christianity from tradition something something you top in and something terrible demon hits on exactly which is i could get the problem with if you're still going to bother seeing liberalism it's universalism whether you're talking liberalism today christianity at one time communism at another time if for all your diverse all this the earth again the crusade. paul's the desire to force

other people to leave your name and if you'll save the good life to save them that is what is so terrible about a liberal foreign policy and we have time or even says although he contradicts himself later that he prefers a liberal style of government instead of hope and hope but in the anarchic world of international politics with no world government competing power centers it is a recipe for militarism and imperialism and disaster and a loss of rights at home i would just push back on the one thing mark mentioned and i think a marsh i would agree with me. is let's say that you have a you know human rights democracy but if it's found founded on power then it will be fine for example after the cold war let's say we would have created a greater europe based on what a bunch of common european home so everyone becomes part of the same club and we agree on certain issues humanitarian standards or you know democratic freedoms will go to your well some good no. matter how we're not instead we developed it may have

been just useful you know for example of that we so. but instead it became it became an instrument of power so century and now we can expand and using democracy as a reason so again very much a new civilizing mission so the new white man's burden is to go out and bring democracy to the poor of the other of the rest of the world and what hold that thought we're going to go to a short break and after that show break we'll continue our discussion on john mearsheimer new book stay with r.t. . to. run. some of the best out of the jewels of. the times. it's

a pain to perform i had to actually prepare myself to die. so you trust me. as my son. is in a home or. car i'm sure. this country was. getting. better was that he could one day where steve was just that yes get more here i did mission so he told me she.

welcome back across like we're all things we considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing john mearsheimer new book. let me go back to glenn you're always getting a bit heated there and everyone's trying to grab space here to continue your point my friend well i was just going to make the point that according to this new liberal theory and liberal ideology this less scope for compromise because if you have if this realistic you know you can always agree that you should have a balance and you can reach a compromise but for the liberals if you think that you know spreading your empire your liberal empire will bring perpetual peace then any compromise with the other serious ascension of peace meant so instead you have this incentive to pursue a perpetual war in order to achieve perpetual peace and i think that's what makes them so dangerous that you can't you can't compromise you can't negotiate the. this

is actually goes against the whole idea that we can actually reach this point where the world becomes this peaceful democratic utopia so. i guess that's my main with it and that's the fantasy point because compromise means evil you can't compromise with with evil with evil with with with well with certain tanks we cannot provide us with saudi arabia just not russia and china. will explain that ok it's simply because saudi arabia other countries go to our border and long ago geo politically aligned themselves with us foreign policy interests it's it's not the principle that matters when you're considering whether to ally yourself with illegal countries whether you're considering saudi arabia or russia or china or you know any turkey or any number of countries it's not principle that actually determines it it's just rank hypocrisy it's a it's a lie they tell and believe themselves really that's why you know these things hangzhou they want to just because realism describes the real world and liberalism

describes made up world and a made up set of conditions of human nature real ism and maritime elaborates on this you know real ism views the world that we are all social animals that we are born into a culture a society and we naturally interact with each other liberalism views that we are all this atomized in the vidual who fink about and signs social contracts with each other and this. eroni assumptions about human nature at the fault of liberalism to be a theory for foreign policy in the world real world and that fill your two to act the real world in real human nature leads to the disaster of consequences war inevitable violence and tensions that arise with a liberal foreign policy. well mark raised an important issue why did the united

states as a liberal paul ally themselves with saudi arabia this is the question that award of russian establishment leaders a lot of russian leaders asking if saudi arabia can be an ally why can't we you know the answer i think is the fall in saudi arabia who never would be a truly independent sovereign state with their elite with the kind of morals that they have their you know it's not a state of family they will always depend in the same way the united states could allied with the mileage china in the seventy's but it cannot allow itself with more or less normal china or to be. so basically what happens is their. russian elite will have to make a choice you know they wanted to have good relations with the united states they tried to accord with the united states for many years the whole idea was that if they want to give money if they want territory to develop all oil and gas we can do

do it together why aren't you doing that well because these people don't want all your money they want to change you they want your soul they want your soul they want to change you profoundly and then that sounds you know when. you know that will sony an idea to make the wall safe for democracy there is all it is that the world is not safe first for other countries and then in the end it becomes unsafe for democracy too so when for example even some russian diplomats say we have no idea what differences with the united states or with the west know we do because the whole difference is methods george of cannon said it was the most important thing about ideology methods russia does not want to change are the countries more dealing them in its own image the united states wants and here i think gives that accident a quart from george w. bush exactly before the invasion of iraq howard george bush saw iraq and liberated

iraq can show power freedom to transform that vital region by bringing hope and progress into the waves of millions america's interests and security and america's belief in liberty borscht lead in the same direction to a free and peaceful iraq and of course he forgot to add with isis. a lot of other things are really of a lot of on it one of those occurrences here another famous but i think flawed because a bit of francis fukuyama we still have this the last man in the end of history i mean people dismissed the book as they should but that's still kind of the g. net. code of liberalism we actually it was heralded by the liberal i know i thought it was a. little piece this is awful they're totally. wrong lately mission of it's right he keeps revising it well he just made a lot of money off of the need in trashing his own book it but it but that's one

point here it's messianic is that when you have a missing link view of the world you can tweak it because it's perfect it's sacred it's a deity in and of itself and any doubting of it it collapsed completely go ahead kind of a beautiful theory for liberal lead to money because what it really said this last man and that history the thesis was that no all ideologies works also there was only one left that was liberal democracy and every country if they want to meddle in the world would have to embrace it and everyone would fall on their leadership and them as you try to emulate it's model again this is i think it's important to point a book out because it's been the foundation of this liberal delusion which points to and i think therefore one of the main issues that merchant looks at us is the western relationship with russia because this is probably been the most toxic of this liberal hedge amount to be because from

a realist perspective every realist even can and especially can and george kennan that if he did the recognize that if you expand the world's largest military alliance up to russia's borders russia will be very anxious it will start to push back and when it pushes back it's a mutual security best thing is to get a settlement in place and try to recognize ok let's not cross this border let's find a mutually beneficial solution but this liberal delusion what we're seeing is oh well we're just promoting democracy russia it's democracy it's afraid of them are they hate our values. and so by allowing russia to essentially balance us this is the biggest threat to peace and we have to. defeat them that's just the logic so they're that liberalism is this peaceful ideology or theory it's it's this it's that you know this is so it is literally in his head you only if it's you couldn't you can recast it in in a different way the united states in its imperium they are post modernist

when it comes internationally leighton's russia is a modernist ok because they believe in borders ok the west says they believe in the values ok with you and it will and then the method is the method right ok this is really interesting let's talk about another book that dovetails on with this well there's a lot of love this stephen walt who is a political ally of john mayer's i remember his book came out of the same just the time on the after where the hell of good intentions america's foreign policy elite and the client of u.s. primacy and that he has previously cooperated with john mearsheimer on a piece critiquing the corrosive influence of israeli influence in washington right now and they were pretty much exiled from the sea you know from after that because of its reception and. if you go on you tube you can find

there's a video ad from harvard's belfer center the liberal world disorder reflects on grand strategy and not so great assumptions this is why marriage simer together discussing both of the model steroids on steroids right now you have a liberal voice to challenge them there as well i strongly suggest you watch that video and we have this zinger in there from walt liberal the gemini is a full employment strategy for the us as foreign policy elite and i think it's really great he also develops the idea what you're talking about how liberalism it actually rode the foundations of what a state. it's because the liberal elite their cosmopolitan nature they don't believe in borders that you know their free flow of people of of of value spread across the world they don't actually care for the idea of a nation they're at the end that they opposed to it and because of that that

this mirrors timer analyzes in his book he focuses on this trifecta and how they interact with each other real lism liberalism and nash national that's you got it that there the thing is there's these little liberal. hema you don't have to know anything about culture you don't have to know anything about nations you don't know to know anything about foreign languages nothing and nothing because you your values are your guiding light and you were absolutely right and you must defeat the heathen and convert everyone using the sword of innocence inside every black brown and yellow person and that little white liberal consumer just waiting to be freed with the good ole truth when your largest pair of you go to school with the ninety s. as a translator for a wall street correspondent here she said that the first thing she heard from her boss us when she went to moscow she asked if she had to learn russian they said

let's not make it a language club very soon all the world will be speaking english you know what we what i what i'm afraid off in this libero hegemony is one of the it is it is it's a tendency to have a monopoly and tendency to have a government intervention because this is exactly what michelle writes in his books he basically defend it he basically divides liberals seem to the so-called more dose revenge of the brawls you know from the times over the ones that have nothing against and the so-called progressive liberals who say that a government action is required to promote positive rights meaning gender rights all these things that we know about so. this is what this is the way to wants to put it tearing is when basically you have an ideological monopoly in there and you end up having monopolies in economy like all these transnational company is you know high tech companies you have a monopoly in science which is detrimental to science and basically you have

government interfering everywhere if i can fake mules we've run out of time to do everything you just said. when it ends up being in toto is intolerance exactly and that's what it becomes and monopoly gentlemen that's all the time we have here many thanks to my guest here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember. after world war two we were all the world we have the most gold we had the sound this current say we had low interest rates and we were american century ready to go and like the awful good lottery winner that blows it all here we are twenty

eight saying having kind of blown. exists is hotter than kentucky. we've all boys you go very funny you. need. a co money c.g. we don't loose no coal mines left. the jobs are gone all the pay rises shouldn't down that it was a love to see these people the survivors of disappearing before their eyes. i remember thinking when i was younger that if anything ever happened to the coal mines here that it would become a ghost town but i never thought in a million years i would see that and it's happened it's happened.

as a muslim could have a little. solace such serious security you know i always saw always a couple wants to jump show your face a tall in the streets well i don't actually it's easier you know like that i don't want too much attention. singing into jane and you know fall for a lady to go on the stage and perform from people. it is considered a taboo in afghanistan and iran i just don't. get it passed out of georgia go go go go no it wouldn't. look. for those who are going to. be making

film in the country to go and see them or you know we don't have foam in this studio we don't have to do this country it was. really good so don't say. so we'll see if getting. it your way modelo i want to go to justin commit but i have pursued. this film called i'm not about to deliver the additional cost. of read them correctly in my head but that if i can make him. act that record high peter barker can't touch that he'd asked me which at that time to enjoy myself next to him so john made a kind of stack that is even going to be good i was catching my truck when he cut it he gets caught and that was our design we couldn't act a playwright dressed like a kid doing that with total paid up on the stuff you know that could. call. us names but no fear at all you know it's.