francisco we have john rainwater he is the executive director of peace action and in new york we cross to alice slater she is a member of the coordinating committee of world beyond war cross talk rules in effect everyone i'm going to go to john first in san francisco say i always go to the person that gets up early is for this and i'm very thankful that you did get up so early and i would be surprised if you had a coffee mug in your hand john let me go to donald trump was campaigning in after he was elected everyone was saying that he was going to be an isolationists then he went through a few iterations of his foreign policy team and now with john bolton on the scene and apparently calling a lot of the shots the fear of isolationism is really turned into the worry of unilateralism in a time when multi-lateralism is gaining pace your thoughts john go ahead well i think that's exactly right those who thought trump might have an anti and

militarists streak are being very disappointed right now and you are seeing the influence of bolton in this attempt to pull out of the i and i have treaty but i think it goes beyond that to a lot of trumps advisors that are just looking to stoke a new arms race and that's what's dangerous about what's going on right now is we're hearing a the rewind button to the ninety's and really on constrained arms race the type of which we haven't seen since the cold war and that's what we need to avoid here alison i get the impression that's exactly what the trumpeting ministration wants or is threatening is an arms race we'll just bury them with all of our money spent on the military which is amazingly bloated right now i mean this is a threat isn't it. yes i mean. this . campaigning thing i'm going to make a deal with me i'm going to make

a deal with russia or i'm going to get rid of nato and the democrats and republicans came down on him. i think go high and go to defend himself you know they they actually voted in the congress not to allow the u.s. to get troops out in a career he had that in so you know this is a system that it corruption and influence of the military industrial complex in the united states and it's going to be an opportunity to really get everybody we should be we shouldn't be talking about maintaining this trade and that's ticket with one hundred twenty two nations just signed a treaty to prohibit nuclear weapons and banned them and make them unlawful the way we have the chemical. and rusher and the u.s. and china are in france and england you know the nonproliferation treaty now is

they are boycotting it it's within arm's not at that point it the language nashton be it's time to ban the bomb not just into another arms control i mean we will break in arms control the e.u.'s with when we walked out of the a.b.m. treaty russia never kept complaining we never did a thing that it well but russian so there would be consequences and i think we're going to see that you know ted it seems to me you know with the advent of arms control agreements in the late sixty's all the way up to one gets a few days ago that was a nonpartisan issue they were almost like sacred cows that you really don't touch and it seems very quickly now the entire architecture of arms control and nonproliferation is it's turning into tatters in front of our eyes go ahead. thank you peter i would say having twenty six years of experience. as an american

diplomat most of that concern with arms control with nonproliferation with the elimination of entire classes of weapons that what alice is talking about is the real danger in the real challenge here we're looking at a world where arms control may not be enough we're looking at the need for declaring first nuclear weapons are unlawful and having all of the powers signed on to that and then do something about reducing the thousands of active nuclear weapons that are still out there ok we're down from you know scores of thousands to me or you know under twenty thousand now that's not good enough we have to bring it down into the low hundreds and then we have to get rid of them entirely and that's not going to be an easy process and it's not going to be a quick one but the problem with looking at the i.n.f. treaty in isolation is that what you've actually got is a massive hole where a european security architecture ought to be there's been divisions within the last few years in particular between western europe and the russian federation and that's on the healthy because russia is a european power in addition to being

a global power obviously but the rest of europe needs to deal with russia on that basis and so talking about something like a dead letter like the i.n.f. treaty is like talking about the washington or the london naval treaties of the twenty's and thirty's it's irrelevant because what's actually broken is the entire architecture you know the issue of these treaties i mean we had the the iran new killer deal and now we have this but trump is always saying you know let's let's come up with a new agreement here but i mean if in and we put yourself in the shoes of north korea would you sign an agreement with the united states when it comes to nuclear weapons i mean it's that credibility gap is growing wider and wider i mean why would any american president say i want to conclude agreements while he's breaking ones left and right go ahead john in san francisco. that's absolutely right and there's really nothing stopping. trump or anyone else to go to the table with the

russian you know and they improve on the architecture that exists obviously it's flawed there are holes in it but that doesn't mean you throw out what you have that has been relatively successful. and you know when like you're saying you're throwing out the iran agreement you're throwing out the i.m.f. it makes negotiating new agreements even more difficult the only thing trump has left is to rename things like nafta give them a new name but that's not diplomacy and what's disappointing about the are and have treaty in a lot of ways is that the u.s. could have gone to the table with russia there are technical ways of solving the problems that were there in terms of inspections reciprocal exhibitions those could have solved the problems that the two countries had instead of walking away from the table but what's scary is that these countries want to have an arms race and that makes banning these nuclear weapons all the more difficult when you're

barreling one hundred eighty degrees in the opposite direction you know there's a lot of european particularly the germans have come out against the americans walking away from the treaty i mean this creates the treaty came into effect to actually protect to europe with with the americans walking away from it it creates an enormous amount of uncertainty right now in what directions the european i mean in western europe they don't want american weapons of course maybe in eastern europe or in the baltics they might welcome them but the entire security architecture is is listing right now because we don't know what the new realities are going to be and adding the new range of weapons certainly doesn't create stability and making the kind of. claim or demand that china has to be part of this is it's ridiculous i mean china has these weapons or rand has these weapons. india

is the help in these weapons here i mean a smart person interested in arms control would get all these countries that have these weapons or developing them and have a global pact but that's not part of john bolton's d.n.a. is it. listen we already have but global pact we signed in one thousand nine hundred seven did we promise to get rid of all on nuclear weapons in the nonproliferation treaty oh but i'm going to spend a trillion dollars over thirty years the two new but on factoring in jenin was our most new submarine missile there playing xbox do smart us smaller nuclear weapons it talking about a small a nuclear weapon is big when it hiroshima and nagasaki i mean we have to change the conversation we got a climate last month that if we don't mobilize the whole we're on to move immediately to solar and wind and geothermal we're going to have the earth just

doesn't abandon earth so how can we be wasting all these resources an i.q. points on new nuclear weapons and fix a little treaty that didn't get rid of them it's just step by step to know where we have to change this conversation to getting rid of all of this to attend to you know if you look at these postures security and defense posture reports that have come out of the trump administration it is truly shocking if you read it carefully but they the u.s. wants to develop short range nuclear weapons and make them make it more possible to use them under a variety of circumstances i mean that shouldn't worry everyone. about europe security and global security in general go ahead. well i want to pick up on a couple of things peter what john said about nafta was very important i would characterize it slightly differently but it's something we have to keep in the back

of our minds what alice said about the nonproliferation treaty and the pledge by all nuclear powers to do away with nuclear weapons is also extremely important and there's a specific reason that we don't trust in stable nuclear deterrence anymore we can't afford to first off nafta has been renegotiated it was abrogated unilaterally people said this is ridiculous nafta took decades to negotiate it'll take decades more to replace it it didn't it took a few months because basically what you're dealing with in donald trump is someone that that ghost wrote you know had ghost written for him the art of the deal ok this is how he operates he's looking at changing paradigms whenever he can to get an advantage either for himself personally or in this case for the united states he's done that with nafta i believe that's what he's up to with i.n.f. i'm not worried about john bolton john bolton was at the state department for all those years that i was he's a minor character at best he said some pretty outrageous things but if you've

noticed john will trump his modus operandi include surrounding himself with people that say outrageous things what's important is what gets done in the end right now cannot arise helen helen let me jump in here right here black i've got to go to a hard break here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on bolton's foreign policy stay with our. pranking gave americans a lot of job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i could make twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year truck so i chose to drive truck people rush to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold

rush is very very similar to. this beautiful story ended with pollution and devastation a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here anymore just slowed down so much they lost their jobs got laid off the american dream is changing that's not what it used to be. and it's a tough reality to deal with. kinds of financial flying today with all the money laundering first to visit this christmas industry different. this is a good start well we have our three banks all set up here maybe something in your something in america something overseas in the cayman islands it will pull these banks are complicit in their tough talk pursued a softer deal with poland saying hey i'm ready to do some serious. ok let's see how we did while we've got a look at that and i still dream watch for max and for stacy oh beautiful jewelry and how about. luxury on a bill for max you know what money laundering is highly illegal. much because of

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exists is holland kentucky. places you've already agreed families leave only. a co money city with almost no coal mines left. the jobs are gone all the polis are said that there was a lot of these people the survivors of a world disappearing before their eyes. i remember thinking when i was younger that if anything ever happened to the coal mines here that it would become a ghost town but i never thought in a million years i would see that and it's happened it's happened. welcome back across the uk where all things are considered i'm peter remind you we're discussing the world according to john bolton.

ok let me go back to ted in oxford you said something very interesting. right before we went to the break here you characterized bolton is kind of a bit character but he seems it least in public in the way it's reported he seems to have an enormous amount of sway over donald trump donald trump came into office as being a hawk on iran well i don't think we need to explain to anyone watching this program about john bolton's views of iran i worry very much about that it's two people with the same mind in having the same goal and not showing any kind of restraint man in fact just the opposite a lot of threats go head to head in oxford. ok i have to disagree peter and i basis not just on the twenty six years i spent as a foreign service officer but specifically on the years i spent in the u.s. mission to nato as the arms control advisor to then ambassador evo daalder who was

himself a committed arms controller and this was under president obama and you'll remember that obama went to prague in two thousand and nine early on in his administration and he talked about having a world free of nuclear weapons and then at nato for the subsequent years of my tenure there i left in two thousand and eleven i saw at the department of defense and the department of energy systematically dismantling any possibility of president obama's prague agenda being adopted first by our european allies and then by anyone else ok obama was done in by his own cabinet by the department of defense and specifically by the department of energy and when we took military industrial complex people trying to get the people to design in the line nuclear weapons people like john bolton correct. no no no bolton has a hawkish attitude ok and he's useful sometimes for some things but he's not d.o.d.'s he's not deal we and those are the people you really have to worry about because they've got skin in the game they're the ones that make money for nuclear

war and every other kind that's ok i absolutely agree with your let me go to go to john here but i still think the outlook in. an ideology foreign policy ideology that john bolton has is having an impression on donald trump i mean the fact that he would trumpet announces at a campaign rally all of the european allies were caught flat footed or didn't expect that he would make that announcement so clear i mean everything is done backward that's why i said it in my introduction here i mean when you discuss the things that they are allies before you make a public statement and of course the statement about the i and amp was made completely out of context for the audience to understand so i mean that's why i started the program incoherent foreign policy though john bolton seems to know what he wants go ahead john. well as far as talking to the allies i mean we have to remember that this puts millions of lives in europe at danger and used

when these weapons were there that the i.m.f. . work to ban you had millions of people in the streets in europe protesting against that gun that was put to their head so of course you talk to the allies because it affects millions of people there i do think bolton's foreign policy is having a lot of influence right now but donald trump does listen to his own counsel mostly and we don't know where this is going to had but you can see it and is iran policy which includes the horrific war in yemen that we need to bring to an end and you can see it in this approach to arms control as far as renegotiating treaties and arms control agreements i think tad's right that they don't have to take a long time e you saw that at the dawn of the arms control era with the limited test ban treaty but this is a little like repeal and replace when you're talking about replacing treaties but you're just getting rid of something without really having

a clear demonstration of what it is you're going to replace it with so i'd be very cautious about getting too excited about what donald trump's going to bring forward in terms of arms control. that may come to pass because it would be a real feather in the cap of donald trump like with north korea he wants to be seen as a deal maker but we should believe it when we see it now and so we have the the new start treaty burma newland two thousand and twenty one. the american withdrawal from the i know it is how do you see. it because i agree with what ted and john it said i mean. it doesn't take a very long time it does take time to update an agreement and this is in the start . new start treaty is very important but they should be working on it now right but if they're not working on it now it looks like they're not going to pursue it again

another very important element of the arms control on infrastructure is decaying in front of our eyes go ahead alice in new york i tell you really disagree ok this is really they stand being blocking. the treaty of the program titian a nuclear weapon one hundred twenty two people just nation just about. it's going through a ratification process. and this is like talking about ons control and twenty first century it's so twentieth century neverwhere it wound up with oh darling you know said in his famous products you know i want to where there are nuclear disarmament and might not happen in my lifetime and then hillary misquoted him and said it might not happen in several i turns voting him wrong i mean we have to literally change the conversation that took a bad little start treaty and move the i.m.f.

but the i then added ok now if i have to disagree with you i mean we have to start somewhere let me go back to ted in the oxford let me go back to ted in oxford if this is going to be an incremental process with the massive military buildup going on in the united states i don't expect russia to get rid of its nuclear weapons anytime soon particularly when american through nato american forces to nato on russia's borders right now that is its guarantee to solve now if we have agreements where we incrementally lower the number of warheads that might be a logical start i would say go ahead ted. well i agree completely with our spend disagree completely with you peter here's why i find there are facts on the ground that we weren't aware of back in the one nine hundred eighty s. . when we were negotiating things like the i.n.f. treaty back in the one nine hundred eighty s. scientists looked at computer modeling of atmospheric dynamics in the event of

nuclear war and they came up with the term nuclear winter which meant we thought back then that in the event of hundreds or possibly thousands of nuclear explosions up to and including the megaton range that we would have to worry about the cold in the dark taking over about ultraviolet radiation killing everything on the ground and in the ocean so people starving people burning simultaneously people freezing all of that we thought was a problem and that was one of the things that led the leaders of the then soviet union in the united states of america to the negotiating table to get serious about reducing the obscene numbers of nuclear weapons that were lying around at that time now fast forward to two thousand and fourteen and modern computer science and this is because of climate modeling that we have computers and computer software this profound we now know it only takes about one hundred hiroshima size weapons and that's nothing that's an aggregate total of one and a half mega tons of nuclear explosive force if we pop that off we end civilization

as we know it which means that there is no such thing as stable and reliable nuclear deterrence is an absurd concept in the face of what we now know about nuclear winter and that's exactly why alice is right the i.n.f. ain't enough new start ain't enough we've got to look at a whole new way of getting down below one and a half mega tons of global nuclear capability we have to do it we are under the gun literally because right now if pakistan and india decided they don't like each other to the point where they will exchange nuclear weapons civilization ends ok john so if we continue the argument of alice and ted so who cares about nonproliferation if that's what's going to happen here ok then you've got to get a saudi arabia that's going to have nuclear weapon then you get a good. pan that wants to do it and then maybe taiwan will get into the i guess i fundamentally disagree with ted in alice here i think you have to start somewhere

to get to that point where i think all of us would agree but just saying i don't see what political force is going to make that complete. withdrawal for of nuclear weapons on this earth i don't see what political imperative will make that happen at this point in time go ahead john in san francisco well i don't think the two perspectives are mutually exclusive i think we need the urgency to realize it's two way these weapons can destroy humanity we need to ban them as soon as possible that john is to be followed out how they are how do i do that john how do i agree with all of you how do we get there john you know i have no knowledge that john finishes off and that's what i was going to what i would. what i was going to say is that's not a mutually exclusive from also having strong arms control agreements that move us in the right direction but but here in the united states we we should be putting pressure on our elected officials to embrace the treaty to ban nuclear weapons

while at the same time we try to cut funding for new nuclear weapons in congress and we engage in nuclear diplomacy whether it's with north korea or with russia or with anybody else it has to be a holistic vision in which we can take incremental steps at the same time we have a very clear vision that we are working to ban nuclear weapons as quickly as possible i don't think those two things are mutually exclusive if we get away get rid of the arms control regime and we allow the amount of states to spend a trillion dollars a trillion and a half dollars rebuilding the nuclear infrastructure we're never going to be able to ban nuclear weapons so we have to bring it all together ok out new york in the last word go ahead we have a project to do the i can network then sort of speed ahead of the adoption of the treaty don't bank on that we're working on the united states here in new york city

getting a city council it's a governor that can probably not be best in nuclear weapons i mean there are a lot of things we can do in the nuclear weapons day but you are ignoring this avalanche coming down on us the climate catastrophe i mean within the next couple years that we don't do anything that lives and the storms and the droughts and the refugee. movement that's going to draw our attention away from nuclear weapons and war we have to have a war to make sure we get one hundred percent so there and when and hydro and efficiency and that's something all. countries could be doing to the benefit of everybody and that's that's another conversation instead of war we need a war on climate catastrophe and that's where the boy should be that's where the money in the energy we have some ohio ok i have to jump in here i wish it would be

a war on the military industrial complex and then all the power would be in agreement that's all the time we have many thanks from my guests in new york san francisco and in oxford and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. prosecution will need to be criminals and this should. be called where you push. the threat of fines. by the number one place you do i mean young yasmin political pressure on the gold you've concluded to secure each industry knows what the bundled up business models used by american corporations. he's sold them could matilda's you to use. the solution.

in association with. the new can he sell some of those it is just simply his will to lead to. an investigative documentary. ghost war on oxy. the thing about saudi arabia is they hear the oil as a weapon and they get too close to investigating what's going on over there they push the price of oil up now on the last ten years because of fracking in america america position to stop us energy independent and no longer subject to the political pressures that can be borne upon them from opec and the saudis so we're going to see a real test of this because. all of these a litany of horrors coming out of saudi arabia is making people feel.

you know when they. don't have a view that. yeah go. bother let it run. right through about iran.

subscribing to rub people who get all repeat. for just twelve euros fifty per month . with donald trump's trade war showing no signs of abating old foes japan and china making the best of a bad situation signing the economic boost together also become the italy refuses to back down over its budget plans despite them being rejected by brussels one italian m.e.p. been used to shoot to demonstrate just what he thinks.