or releasing the tapes that they keep referencing why do you think turkey so. you come up with the charges this reserved all the evidence i think the strategy. for the saudis and for the americans i think is sort of building up his game gradually hoping that he could get something in return politically from the americans here so we were going to see what it's going to result but my problem with this strategy is that the longer he waits the the saudis and the americans are determined to give something back to the turks now present himself as hardly. a defender of human rights there are numerous reports of his own security services being implicated in the kidnapping of turkish nationals have brought there are numerous reports of people dying in turkish jails waiting for trial sometimes years on and do you think there is any person. in the

most possible way. that could be the case. of human rights maybe that's one of the one of the elements of his trying to whitewash. the west and is clearly working because a lot of the media a lot of politicians in the west are taking his claims at face value so that is clearly working towards the benefit of the moment whatever was planned i'm still. carried out because turkey and saudi arabia had a pretty rocky adversarial relationship even before that even if we take the saudis had to believe that these fifteen man squad. purely for interrogation wasn't that still exceedingly risky for the saudis to attempt something like. that question kind.

the political thinking of. what exactly his strategy. felt that that was intentional to kind of turkey in the spotlight with this with this course because the way it was done the evidence that resurfaced it seems that at some point that was intentional while it was intentionally. present there one is definitely back because he is squarely putting. the crown prince on the spot speaking of whom the saudi crown prince has many enemies within his own extended family who have. good reasons for either wanting to prevent him from succeeding to the throne or wanting to you take revenge for his past deeds what do you personally find more plausible that the crown prince is behind it or that there is somebody in saudi arabia with enough leverage enough influence to frame him in such a fashion from what i understand the people who. perpetrated this murder

those were the people very close. and if somebody else managed to get these people very close to. what they did that raises a lot of questions how safe politically and saudi arabia at the moment if that was the case i'm afraid is a lot of trouble but i think more likely still the people around him were plotting this now you wrote recently the present air though on by going very public with this allegations maybe hoping to rehabilitate the turkish relationship which. has been damaged by a disagreement over syria by the detention of an american pastor but from my point of view he doesn't make it any easier for mr truong does he because. you know. to me it looks more like an effort to put trump in a very difficult position rather than the time that any reference mall. it's

a challenging situation but at the same time he has an option give back something to turkey turkey to be quiet about this. get the saudis and the turks to talk to each other and deal with this quietly. for the time being but. really resolve that quietly was that really an option once. you cannot. building up pressure on the saudis it feels like he is expecting some kind of actions from the americans in my opinion now the president has already hinted at some sort of response on the part of the united states what's the possible range here. expelling a couple of saudi diplomats to watch exactly one of the responses i think this is something that americans are discussing at the moment. those fifteen thousand people who. murder that of course is not.

significantly however there's a lot of. traction in the united states to try and make a sort of an international parea and to come. were not going to deal with we need to deal somebody with somebody else you need to replace them. so if the. movement in that direction i could see how. kind of commentary because i came across something completely opposite but before we can discuss that let me ask you one more question about the possible represents as far as the united states is concerned because for the time being. much of the discussion has been. arms deals and possible economic it is clear that saudi arabia is the american policies in the region do you think there could be a. reexamination. of this major scandal american pows. the making is not coherent i'm sure you've seen that has been coming

up with a lot of statements saying that the states of the gulf should take care of the middle east or other we're still committed to the middle east so there's a lot of incoherence there but i think saudi arabia is hugely important to the united states and i think trump understands that. this is exactly what was driving his kind of commentary on the. killing so that is a very challenging patrol but i think that's going to change the status quo of america's policy because of ego but i mean if we consider both possibilities here it is the crown prince who is behind the murder or second it is somebody who is strong enough and powerful enough in saudi arabia you challenge him in such a way that makes saudi arabia inherently dangerous. to put any bets on when she thinks this is something we've seen the yemen policy we've

seen the. kidnapping of. by geo political or geo strategic interest this is something very different in a way that it is. brazen i mean whoever thought of this crime definitely could have. other political shenanigans of. really feeding a. political thinking and i really fitting into his personal vendettas and he thinks that if politically he's allowed to do so much he's given so much space domestically ordinary saudis he can do the same but it's not exactly a domestic situation first and foremost because it took place in that country and it also involved not a citizen of the united states but there from what i understand a permanent resident you definitely should have considered those implications if. the crown prince is behind that's a big if at this point it is not a. domestic issue. or whoever purpose that

is sending a very strong signal domestically that if we can do this a broad we can surely do this at home and nobody will react now saudi arabia and the crown prince in particular have or used to have a very strong lobby in the united states particularly in the think tank community in some media circles who are traditionally very strong but i think in this particular case it's going to be pretty challenging for them to. gape scandal the current american administration as for example they attempted to do with the russia this is a partisan challenge from what i understand for the american political isn't it. i think the. a lot of american institutions media outlets think tanks as you mentioned will have to accept that they have to kind of bash the saudis for this because this is this is the case where they just. say you know all those nice it is

about. they can afford to leave it at the bashing because obviously we all agree that it's a horrible crime is that enough to save your indorsing saudi arabia. linchpin of the american policy in the region. of think tanks declaring that they will not continue to accept saudi money and i think the first days after the mission of guilt i think that was the most the most terrible thing that's going to happen i think from now on we're not going to see more media outlets or think tanks saying that we're not dealing with the saudis anymore and i think the investment conference that took place in saudi arabia. pulling out it's already. people from companies going to to replace them in the conference nobody nobody wants to be. part of the. i think the scandal also touches on the value narrative that. americans and just the other day i heard

a veteran american diplomat martin indyk suggesting that the crown prince needs to come up with something take the focus away from this crime for example. flow the possibility of pulling out a few young men or female political prisoners but you know those things are. something well i think it's a very very cynical approach you would probably agree with me on that do you think americans going forward seriously here the same values narrative sort of the basis for their foreign policy. question i think i think moments among is definitely going to take the ones that you described because they would be very indicative of him given into pressure that's how the saudis do their foreign policy. i think that the saudis were hoping that the investment conference would somehow a lot of the criticism didn't happen. speaking about the kind of value it's never

been about values the best. part of their foreign policy i mean they they they do. with regard to always been about national interests not values and i think it will continue to be the same there's still the perceived around threat based on their national interests both countries will have to control to confront that well we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. put themselves along. the reject. present.

want. to going to be close to see what before three in the morning can't be good. i'm interested in the waters and. this should be. cranking gave america a lot of new job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i committed twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year truck so i chose to drive truck people who rushed to a small town in north dakota was among the employment rate of zero percent is like a gold rush it is very very similar to a gold rush but this beautiful story ended with pollution and the bus station a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here anymore just slow down too much they lost their jobs got laid off the american dream is changing that's not what it used to be. and it's a tough reality to deal. i would prefer to

say that. the human space is must become into prana terry wish me instead so we have a leaving in the solar system. and for sure we show that spans on other on other all this of the solar system i see this as a way all bring game and developing more technologists technologists so that's becoming even. increase in the end improve the quality of life on earth. welcome back to worlds apart beauty of bottom in middle east and north africa as spread out there. international affairs. just before the break we have touched upon

the. efforts of american think tank and media circles and just yesterday i had a chance to read that famous column by thomas friedman of the new york times and he's got about how. mohamed bin some months after is going to reshape the entire islamic world teaches indeed part of the saudi ambition how much of an obstacle is the case to the broader saudi agenda. will be even more. well i think if he stays in power and i think it's likely that he's going to stay in power i think you'll have to show that he was undermined and he will i think you'll be more kind of geopolitical geopolitical ventures and the conference that your reference earlier on. in the desert i think was designed in part to facilitate for all the future. of that country you mentioned that

a number of companies had to pull out under the pressure from the public which kind of shifted the spotlight onto the very relatively small russian delegation there do you think it was wise on the part of the russians. rather than pull out. i think it was was a lot of chinese came a lot of a lot of europeans a lot of americans to. i think. for a businessman to pull out of an event where a lot of money is at stake. at the moment. between business. doing business and social stuff human rights all of the. values and that's ok that's business as business now you wrote before that the russian relations are highly compartmentalize the beach is another word for saying that they're extremely lame. extremely complicated and president putin made it

clear that he's not going to throw what has been so painstakingly achieved under the bus but there is one thing of trying to preserve what you have and then there's another thing when you try to capitalize on the scandal or on the. former or current allies do you thing russia to do the latter. trying to go on this i think russians are trying to stay under the radar even though they sent a delegation to saudi arabia and gave a lot of space and coverage to the russian delegation and. of course but i don't think. they already have a good strong relationship with. russia at the moment is to try and guard that that's the only goal you wrote in an. russia saudia reference more months became possible because president putin and the crown prince speak the same language both as you wrote prefer to use hard power to resolve issues domestically

and internationally both see the world in a black and white do you think if they're so similar do you think president putin would authorize a similar interrogation let's say of some former chechen militants in their russian consulate in istanbul. or couldn't. i don't know it's all speculations to be honest i think the russian government is so. domestically and abroad it might not necessarily be vladimir putin to order that somebody in the intelligence apparatus same as in saudi arabia so that is i think it's still not clear as to whether the reason i'm asking this is because i do see this line of argument developing in both western and arab media trying to establish this comparative similarity between the russian . to me that bunkers because say what you want about the authoritative nature of

the russian government it's nowhere near in terms of the concentration of power in one hand as it is. and i would also add let me know if you disagree that i think the kremlin is far more diligent and sophisticated in calculating the risks and possible. to. think when we speak about the similarities between put think it's about it's about the kind of the vision of the world not necessarily the instruments that you and i think what. drives. is the fact that. go ahead with his domestic policy foreign policy disregarding the international backlash i think. that's really the case because obviously russia has many adversaries but never goes on record saying you know. i

mean whenever it comes to ukraine the united states great britain it's always couched in the much more. risk averse terms keeping the door if not open them you know at least not fully logged in terms of walking back sure. to do with cultural differences between russia and saudi arabia. kind of. sort of more of a populist. resonates at home this is the reason why the leadership. type of rhetoric. as well in some other middle eastern states is just not the way the russian policymaking works now for the time being the kremlin position is that we don't really know what happened which is at odds with ankara's seemingly absolute conviction of what really happened there and you wrote that recently that the kremlin should be. turkish sensitive it is on the kid. but i

wonder if there isn't really a way of doing that without fully buying a narrative which is totally self-serving. i think it's not russia's fight to pick the fight between turks and saudi arabia which is why i'm saying russia is trying to stay under the radar i think. expressing sympathy. exactly happened. a little bit of a softer outreach to the saudis but at the same time i'm afraid russians are the same towards turkey that's what really. what exactly could they say that would satisfy mr rather than saying that. he is version of events at face value well at least russians could have knowledge that. they have that evidence because from what i've heard nobody has heard those tapes even though we keep hearing about it until somebody actually reported earlier today. those audiotapes were shared with the russians with the americans and with the europeans so it looks

like turks are trying to reach out to the russians and get them on their side but i don't see much movement in that direction in russia now whenever there is anything contentious involving the russians get very anxious about the solidity of the. agreement you also voiced some concerns and. betrays the general russian. president there on in particular but i'm wondering if you think self could afford to abandon or cheat on the agreements that he reached with regard to the zone i think you're making a very good point. to to throw russia under the bus easily in favor of some kind of an alliance with the united states because turkey personally is in a very difficult position of the moment there's a lot of pressure on him at home over the syria policy there's a lot of people at home saying why are you not returning all those. back to syria

and of course that agreement over is probably the. you know straw. polls which has been disastrous to be honest while we're still on the subject of syria publicized details of the journalist murder are extremely disturbing but not in the context of syria because. there are things that have been done in that country by the rebels that are supported either by saudi arabia or i'm afraid. but speaking about saudi arabia do you think. is going to in any way limit its bargaining position when it comes to these specific conflict. conflict. well. as you mentioned the russians have been i wouldn't describe them as sympathetic but at least ask critical as everybody else surely they would want to preserve that kind of goodwill. i think the impact of this murder on the. power.

to be honest that is a. separate issue in russia turkey relations and i think there is a different set of factors that is driving that relationship with the saudi position. at the moment. to be honest i think the saudis have decided to abandon syria in favor of being more proactive in yemen and that is not working. on the ground. difficult to say but yes they do the moment yes and also. the saudis may have offered the americans to invest more in the kurdish areas in syria. will have a lot of leverage in syria that's true now the discussion. for regional players would be incomplete without israel and the same as with the trumpet ministration saudi arabia is very sensual israeli strategic picture of the

region can do damage to a reputation. there. so what is what is. enough pressure on iran and i don't i don't see how the murder of could impact saudi poll see of putting pressure confronting around in the region so i think at the moment this convergence on confronting around between iran and. saudi arabia the united states and a bunch of other countries just the other day the new york times ran an editorial. suggesting that there are some nervousness both in israel as. among the israeli community in the united states with regard to where. it could leave the israeli policy that's why i'm asking but one one more implication i think of this whole affair is that we all know that there has been

some. saudi arabia but the reason it has been kept on official from what i understand it because of. the arab world do you think there would be a similar saudi sentiment within the israeli larger israeli public reach. the decision making that the country i think there's a difference. is very personal i think and very historic the. sentiment in israel this is something that i can't even imagine because for israel dealing with saudi arabian partnering with saudi arabia is a very. calculation of how israel should go ahead in the world because they see that saudi arabia at the moment is the most potent ally that can put a lot of. premised on the believe that saudi arabia is rational actor

and that control is not only its own decision making but also its proxies but all of that has been called into question by the recent events i think i think the saudi paul see for example. focused a lot on the intelligence intelligence which is very pragmatic which is closer to. there's a very strong link between intelligence operatives on the saudi intelligence operatives and i would say. overall here. we have to leave it there but i really appreciate your coming into the. our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages. same place same time here on worlds apart. bomb.

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