we're determined to get rid of the body that is already terrible enough to. put a lot of pressure on them politically this story has a very determined for sure at this point president. turkey who security services continue leaking the most blood curdling details without providing any public evidence or releasing the tapes that they keep referencing why do you think turkey so. you come up with the charges this reserved all the evidence i think the strategy. for the saudis and for the americans i think is sort of building up his game gradually hoping that he could get something in return politically from the americans here so we were going to see what it's going to result but my problem with this strategy is that the longer he waits. the saudis and the americans are determined to give something back to the turks now present himself as hardly. founder of human rights there are numerous

reports of his own security services being implicated in the kidnapping of turkish nationals abroad there are numerous reports of people dying in turkish jail waiting for. sometimes years on and do you think there is any person. present in the most possible way. that could be the case. of human rights maybe that's one of the one of the elements of his trying to whitewash image a little bit with the west and is clearly working because a lot of the media outlets a lot of politicians in the west are taking his claims at face value so that is clearly working towards the benefit of the moment whatever was planned i'm still struck by the choice of locations or carried out because turkey and saudi arabia had a pretty rocky. adversarial relationship even before that even if we take the saudis

and. believe that this fifteen man squad was. purely for interrogation wasn't that still exceedingly risky for the saudis to attempt something like turkey it was. in itself a question kind of political thinking of. what exactly he strategy. that was intentional to kind of turkey in the spotlight with this with this group because the. amount of evidence that resurfaced it seems that there was intentional while it was intentional. present there that one is definitely back because he is squarely putting. the crown prince on the spot speaking of whom the saudi crown prince has many enemies within his own extended family who have. good reasons for either wanting to prevent him from succeeding to

the throne or wanting to you take revenge for his past deeds what do you personally find more plausible that the crown prince is behind it or that there is somebody in saudi arabia with enough leverage enough influence to frame him in such a fashion from what i understand the people who. perpetrated this murder those were the people very close. and if somebody else managed to get these people very close to. what they did that raises a lot of questions. politically at the moment if that was the case i'm afraid. a lot of trouble but i think more likely. people around him were plotting this now you wrote recently that present air though on by going very public with this allegations maybe hoping to rehabilitate the turkish relationship which. has

disagreements over syria by the detention of american pastor but from my point of view he doesn't make it any easier for. me because. you know. to me it looks more like an effort to put trump in a very difficult position. and the time that any reference surely it's a challenging situation but at the same time he has an option give back something to turkey and ask turkey to be quiet about this. and get the saudis and the turks to talk to each other and deal with this quietly. for the time being but that was still really resolved out quietly was that really an option once. public allegation you cannot. go on is building up pressure on the saudis it feels like he is expecting some kind of actions from the americans in my opinion now the president has already hinted at some sort of response on the part of the united

states what's the possible range here. expelling a couple of saudi diplomats to what exactly one of the responses i think this is something that americans are discussing at the moment sanctioning those fifteen thousand people who came to istanbul in perpetrated the murder that of course is not. significantly however there's a lot of. traction in the united states to try and make a sort of an international parea and to come to a we're not going to deal with we need to deal somebody with somebody else you need to replace them. so if there's a movement in that direction i could see how. that kind of commentary because i came across something completely opposite but before we can discuss that let me ask you one more question about the possible represents as far as the united states is concerned because for the time being. much of the

discussion has been. arms deals and possible economic fallout but it is clear that saudi arabia. the american policies in the region do you think there could be a. reexamination. of this major scandal where you see american policy making is not coherent i'm sure you've seen that has been coming up with a lot of statements saying that the states of the gulf should take care of the middle east or other we're still committed to the middle east so there's a lot of incoherence there but i think saudi arabia is hugely important to the united states and i think trump understands that. this is exactly what was driving his kind of commentary on the. killing so. i think that's going to change the status quo of america's policy but i mean if we consider both possibilities here it is the crown prince who is behind the murder or

second it is somebody who is strong enough and powerful enough in saudi arabia you challenge him in such a way that makes saudi arabia inherently dangerous. to put any bets on you think so this is not something we've seen the policy we've seen the. kidnapping of. has been by geo political or geo strategic interest this is something very different in a way that it is extremely brazen i mean whoever thought of this crime definitely could have. other political shenanigans of. really feeding him. political thinking and i really fitting into his personal and he thinks that if geopolitically he's allowed to do so much he's given so much space domestically ordinary saudis he can do the same but it's. not exactly

a domestic situation first and foremost because it took place in that country and it also involved not a citizen of the united states but there from what i understand a permanent resident you definitely should have considered those implications if. the crown prince is behind that's a big if at this point it is not a. domestic issue i think. or whoever purpose that is sending a very strong signal domestically we can do this abroad we can surely do this at home and nobody will react now saudi arabia and the crown prince in particular have or used to have a very strong lobby in the united states particularly in the think tank community in some media circles who are traditionally very hostile towards trying but i think in this particular case it's going to be a pretty challenging for them to pin this gate scandal on the current american administration as for example they attempted to do with the russia gate this is

a bi partisan challenge from what i understand for the american political isn't it . i think the. a lot of american institutions media outlets think tanks as you mentioned will have to accept that they have to kind of bash the saudis for this because this is this is the case where they just. say you know all those nice it is about. they can afford to leave it at the bashing because obviously we all agree that it's a horrible crime is that enough to say that and continue endorsing saudi arabia as the main lynchpin of the american policy in the region. of think tanks declaring that they will not continue to accept saudi money and i think the first days after the mission of guilt i think was the most the most terrible thing that's going to happen i think from now on we're not going to see more media outlets or think tanks saying that we're not dealing with the saudis anymore and. the investment

conference that took place in saudi arabia a bunch of c.e.o.'s pulling out it's already indicative themselves we're sending kind of second people from from their companies going to to replace them in the conference nobody nobody wants to be you know part of the pie go away to somebody else i think the scandal also touches on the values narrative that is so dear it's . just the other day i heard a veteran american diplomat martin indyk suggesting that the crown prince needs to come up with something will take the focus away from this crime for example as he said. flow the possibility of pulling out a few young men or female political prisoners but you know those things are. something well i think it's a very very cynical approach you're with probably agree with me on that do you think that americans going forward seriously here. value narratives as sort of the basis for their foreign policy. question i think.

i think is definitely going to take the ones that you discard because they would be very indicative of him given into pressure that's not how the saudis do their foreign policy. i think that the saudis were hoping that the investment conference would somehow a lot of the criticism didn't happen. speaking about the kind of value it's never been about values. part of their foreign policy i mean they have. with regard to saudi arabia it's always been about national interests not values and i think it will continue to be the same the still the perceived around threat and based on their national interests both countries will have to control to confront that well we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments. runs

of the local flow that is the best out of the jewels a little. bit behind so it was pain to perform i had to actually prepare myself to die i. don't know so i need what i do know sorry trust me. as most of. the snow in the home will start her up. this country was. she had the goods. so we'll see if you think. it was that he could would. not. depreciate. education

a couple. b.s. get. up. start a bomb a really was very european in his approach he would be very well suited is an m.e.p. in brussels for example doesn't represent america is america for better or worse and i think what we're trying to do here is to let the world see out here. welcome back to worlds apart because. north africa russian international affairs

council just before the break with touched upon the. efforts of american think tank and media circles and just yesterday i had a chance to really read that famous column by thomas friedman of the new york times in which he's got about how. mohamed bin some months after is going to reshape the entire islamic world teaches indeed part of the saudi ambition how much of an obstacle is the case to the broader saudi. will be even more. will i think if he stays in power and i think it's likely that he's going to stay in power i think you'll have to show that he was undermined and he will i think you'll be kind of geopolitical geopolitical ventures and. your reference earlier on. in the desert i think was designed in part to facilitate

for all the future. of that country you mentioned that a number of companies had to pull out under their pressure from the public which kind of shifted the spotlight onto the very relatively small russian delegation there do you think it was wise on the part of the russians as you say rather than pull out. i think it was was a lot of chinese a lot of a lot of a lot of americans to. i think. for a businessman to pull out of an event where a lot of money is at stake. at the moment is going to break between business. doing business and social stuff human rights all of the. values and that's ok that's business as business now you wrote before that the russian relations are highly compartmental. beach is another word for saying that

they're extremely extremely complicated and present put in made it clear that he's not going to throw what has been so painstakingly achieved under the bus but there is one thing of trying to preserve what you have and then there's another thing when you try to capitalize on the scandal or on the. former or current allies do you think russia will attempt to do the latter. russians are trying to get on this i think russians are trying to stay under the radar even though they sent a delegation to saudi arabia and gave a lot of space and coverage to the russians. of course but i don't think. they already have a good strong relationship with. russia at the moment is to try and guard that that's the only goal you wrote in an ad for. russia saudi reference more months became possible because president putin and the crown prince speak the same

language both as you wrote prefer to use hard power to resolve issues domestically and internationally both see the world in a black and why do you think if they're so similar do you think president putin would authorize a similar interrogation let's say of some former chechen militants in their russian consulate in istanbul. or couldn't. i don't know it's all speculations to be honest i think the russian government is so. domestically and abroad in. order that somebody in the intelligence apparatus same as in saudi arabia so that is i think it's still not clear as to whether the reason i'm asking this is because i do see this line of argument developing in both western and arab media all trying to establish this. similarity between the russian and the saudi regime sent to me

that bunkers because say what you want about the authority of nature of the russian government it's nowhere near in terms of the concentration of power in one hand as it is. and i would also add let me know if you disagree that i think the kremlin is far more diligent and sophisticated in calculating the risks and possible. to. think when we speak about the similarities between. think it's about it's about kind of the vision of the world not necessarily the instruments that you and i think what. drives. is the fact that. go ahead with his domestic policy foreign policy disregarding the international backlash i think. that's really the case because obviously russia has many adversaries but never goes on record saying you know. i mean

whenever it comes to ukraine the united states great britain it's always couched in a much more polite risk averse terms keeping the door if not open them you know at least not fully logged in terms of walking bash or. to do with cultural differences between russia and saudi arabia. kind of. sort of more of a populist. resonates at home this is the reason why the leadership. type of rhetoric. as well as in some other middle eastern states is just not the way the russian policymaking works now for the time being the kremlin position is that we don't really know what happened. is at odds with ankara's seemingly absolute conviction of what really happened there that you wrote recently that the kremlin should be. turkish sensitive it is on the case but i wonder if

there isn't really a way of doing that without fully buying narrative which is totally self-serving. i think it's not russia's fight to pick the fight between turks and saudi arabia which is why i'm saying russia is trying to stay under the radar i think. expressing sympathy. exactly happened. a little bit of a softer outreach to the saudis but at the same time i'm afraid russians are the same towards turkey that's what really. what exactly could say would satisfy mr broader than saying that they. version of events at face value at least russians could have knowledge that. they have that evidence because from what i've heard nobody has heard those tapes even though we keep hearing about it until somebody actually reported earlier today. those audiotapes were shared with

the russians with the americans and with the europeans so it looks like turks are trying to reach out to the russians and get them on their side but i don't see much movement in that direction in russia now whenever there is anything contentious involving the russians get very anxious about the solidity of the. agreement you also voiced some concerns and. betrays the general russian. president there on in particular but i'm wondering if you think self could afford to abandon or cheat on the agreements that he reached with regard to the i think you're making a very good point. to to throw russia under the bus easily in favor of some kind of an alliance with the united states because turkey personally is in a very difficult position of the moment there's a lot of pressure on him at home over the syria policy this. a lot of people at

home saying why are you not returning all those syrian refugees back to syria and of course that agreement over is probably the. you know straw. polls which has been disastrous to be honest while we're still on the subject of syria publicized details of the journalist murder are extremely disturbing but not in the context of syria because. there are things that have been done in that country by the rebels that were supported either by saudi arabia or i'm afraid. but speaking about saudi arabia do you thing that is going to in any way limit its bargaining position when it comes to these specific conflict. conflict. as you mentioned the russians have been i wouldn't describe them as sympathetic but at least ask critical as everybody else surely they would want to preserve that kind of. power. to be honest. separate issue in russia

turkey relations and i think there's a different set of factors that is driving that relationship what about the saudi position. at the moment. to be honest i think the saudis have decided to abandon syria in favor of being proactive in yemen and that is not working. on the ground. difficult to say yes they do the moment yes and also. the saudis may have offered the americans to invest more in the kurdish areas in syria. will have a lot of leverage in syria that's true now the discussion. for regional players would be incomplete without israel and the same as with the trumpet ministration saudi arabia is very sensual israeli strategic picture of the region can do damage to the reputation. there.

so what is. the pressure on iran and i don't i don't see how the murder of could impact saudi poll see of putting pressure confronting around in the region so i think at the moment this convergence on confronting around between iran and. saudi arabia the united states and a bunch of other countries just the other day the new york times ran an editorial. suggesting that there are some nervousness both in israel and. among the israeli community in the united states with the big. so you. can. leave the israeli policy that's why i'm asking but one one more implication i think of this whole affair is that we all know that there has been some. saudi arabia

but the reason it has been kept on official from what i understand it because of. the arab world do you think there would be a similar saudi sentiment within the israeli larger israeli public reach the. decision making that the country i think there's a difference. in the arab world is very personal i think and very historic the. sentiment in israel this is something that i can't even imagine because for israel dealing with saudi arabian partnering with saudi arabia is a very. calculation of how israel should go ahead. because they see that saudi arabia moment is the most potent ally that can put a lot of. premised on the believe that saudi arabia is rational actor

and that control is not only its own decision making but also its proxies but all of that has been called into question by the recent events i think i think the saudi paul see for example. focused a lot on the intelligence. which is very pragmatic which is closer to. there's a very strong link between israeli intelligence operatives and the saudi intelligence operatives and i would say. here. we have to leave it there but i really appreciate your coming into. this conversation going on our social media pages hope. same place same time here. there. are.

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