strasberg he's a lecturer in political philosophy and isis the catholic university in new york we have jordan samuel he is a fellow at the global policy institute of london and author of bombs for peace and i'll burn we have rockwell he is a political commentator and editor of lew rockwell dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate john let me go to you first but i'd like to quote i guess the ice aspiring sun king of europe there are no other well known as the president of france mccrone he said this patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism national him is a betrayal of patriotism and i'd also like to throw in another quote that he said earlier this year when he was a candidate which absolutely stunned me still does quote as candidate there is no such thing as french culture what is this man talking about john. well whenever i hear mccoy moore is reminded of oscar wilde's remark about someone who said. deep

down he's very superficial and that's true of michael every time we have his mouth he seems to conquer new heights of mediocrity but i was also reminded of another french leader charles de gaulle who of course made a famous appeal to his country on the eighteenth of june one hundred forty is often forgotten that winston churchill made an appeal on that same day he'd given a speech in the house of commons and he went to the b.b.c. to broadcast the words of the speech and that speech was his finest hour speech and both men churchill and the goal in calling for the water continue against nazi imperialism drew as explicitly and as emotionally as they possibly could for national pride and national sentiment churchill recalled britain's great island story france a gold of course recalled france's glory and so on and this idea of mccall's that actually it isn't and nationalism are somehow different is a complete lie etymologically the word to mean the same thing patriotism means your fatherland party in french your nation nationalism nation is comes from the word

net her to be born so there were two words are intimately linked in their meaning and in they're at an atom ology and the people who say that they are somehow separate are themselves betraying patriotism or obviously if they don't they don't know much history and they don't know much about words apparently you know you know george the real point of that that very shallow speech was number one a direct jab at donald trump but also it is a defense of the indefensible in my opinion and that is the continuation of globalism which people are rejecting left to end right so he used he used this very . sacred event and he turned it into something a political a bumper sticker for globalism go ahead george. yes that's right and this is been a theme of french foreign policy for

a while i mean if one goes of going back to really for quite a long time which is that the european union is the antithesis of nationalism that somehow what we're about is the opposite of the nationalist and you during the one nine hundred ninety s. the french leaders would define themselves define european values as the opposite of these terrible nationalist in the balkans and so and particularly they defined the serbs as being their enemy because the serbs were nationalists whereas the french and the europeans are sophisticated europeans have moved on from that and now take on this transnationalism globalism but of course

as you say the people are rejecting that and it is clear that the rossa such a thing has nations and what's very important and we see this of the seat as the poles of the czechs is that they want to retain their national identity they don't want to be so somehow lost in some kind of a. tray you know transnational melting pot and so therefore macro who at times seemed as if he understood this has gone back to a kind of this nonsensical idea that well nations are just a thing of the past you know they're the things that cause two world wars and then we have to move on to something called european values which will trans national values will durant of course if. it is not going on now it's nonsensical because these elites don't care about their own country. they fit get that the voters do ok that's how that's how far apart they are from people you know lou

here i mean i don't want to give a history lection the election because i used to teach european history in the united states but you need a form of nationalism to create a nation state and to maintain it what the critics of these and these people are low octane thinkers for sure because they really don't know what they're talking about here is that they want to point to extreme forms of add no nationalism which no one on this program would in ever endorse but for them it's this one quick leap from being caring about your nation caring about your people and your culture and your traditions if you're just one step away from auschwitz that is a historical thinking go ahead lou. well i'm mccrone of course he says that nationalism means hating other nations but of course he's the one who actually hates poland and

charlie and the czech republican and hungary and he's he's he doesn't either he doesn't understand my guess is he doesn't understand that nations are normal their natural love of one's country is natural. and and these are made basically language communities nations and so the attempt to bring in all the muslims into europe and to abolish the language community is very very damaging it's actually crazy and of course the countries in the east don't want the muslims they don't want these people who don't speak their language don't share their culture and want to actually destroy their culture and their nation so mccrone is the enemy of europe i notice that the european values means getting rid of europe getting rid of the indigenous peoples of europe so it's just a liar and i think i was glad that trump took him down and he's are in his

responses but mccrone is i would say the enemy of everything decent in europe he's the enemy of the french people and the french culture from there of course of course there's something called french culture there's the french nation and. he's the enemy so i think we always have to keep that in mind about him about about merkel and these people a enemies of european values merkel's a spent force that's maybe why mccrone is trying to make a bid to be the sun king of europe i don't know john you were nodding your head go ahead. well i mean he reminds me of the hit the scene in downfall that everyone as they imitated on you tube yeah where you know hitler finally realizes that the enemy is in berlin because frankly if you look around the world everybody now has turned to a more nationalistic policy not just the american ited states of america under trump but also of course china india countries within the european union brazil you

know they'll soon only be matt kwan merkel left or not even merkel and in any case the german position on this is of course very interesting because german national identity has traditionally been expressed in the form of an empire constitutionally speaking whereas french and british and other identities have been expressed in the form of a nation state. and german. politics when it comes to europe is not short of the caricature of nationalism which enemies of patriots sometimes like to portray what i mean by that is that the germans feel very happy in this greater germany which is the european union they feel feel very happy controlling the european union as they do controlling all the major organizations of the european union the controlling all the parties in the political parliament because that indeed corresponds to the national model and of

course it was against german imperialism not german nationalism it was against german imperialism that two world wars were fought you know george i mean what i find the other thing i found very strange about macross speech is that he is obviously against national and somebody that he's talking about kind of be you and that he specifically but around people around him or europe or new european empire that is militarized i mean what's going on with that ok because did anybody it was anyone asked to vote in the e.u. about such a policy or is it just ordained from above like everything else in the e.u. go ahead george. yes that is interesting however. if that's not necessarily a terrible idea i don't think it's the right one i think i agree with you reading your mind all across the around the world i know what you're getting at are you talking about need to keep going george. right right well and there i think it's

very interesting that trump who who really was the sort of the leader of the sort of global nationalist movement. immediately responded in the traditional. us washington foreign policy think way which is oh my god this is the worst thing ever there can be nothing outside of nato nato is the be all and end all of all in the world and how dare the french darian crowd side the box because don't they remember that we had to save them for in two world wars and so on and you would have thought trump who has been complaining about this huge burden of the defending the europeans when they're not doing anything themselves you think trying to get out to say hey you know that's not a bad idea i think i like this idea of europeans doing more and said oh no they were for the last thing he was. are you lou real quickly before we go to the break

here if that was all about nato twenty seconds before we go to the break go ahead lou well of course the u.s. occupies europe it's not defending europe and it's this is all a fraud and trump wants more money from the europeans to be occupied by the u.s. i hope they don't give it to us ok i'm going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on nationalism stayed with art. to imagine decades after the war a nazi don't it was still active. in the nineteen seventies cretonne had as the chair of its board a man convicted of mass murder and slavery. a german company develops in the de mind a drug that was promoted as completely. even during pregnancy you get turned down

to have terrible side effects what has happened to my baby is anything paul you know she said she's just cut short arms minix a little mind victims i have to this day received no compensation they never apologized for the suffering that not only want the money i want the revenge. blushes and. the total morsel of each secret to hold most for a team you'll be set it's not that it's indeed some chance that only shooting against. them into. a utopia because you know i said it it at least they knew a little bit i was one of them commenting that in the scheme to show. review

shirley's. endorsement to the south korean is just tell them not to be calm cool and summed up. the money i took of the british mr west imo she of. course says those logic doesn't have to do with the should dare to achieve the goal choosing that is a middle fold the generals government doesn't. by the government to change bush throughout the g eight which ends this region hamas in every state in trimming i will move in the dead what they'll failing to do.

welcome back to crossfire were all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing nationalism. ok let's go back to john here i want to continue a point that george and lou brought up in the first part of the program it was all about nato here and of course trump's instincts i don't think his instincts have changed at all i think he doesn't really see the value of nato but he surrounded himself with neo cons and of course a lot of military contract contractors want to make money off of it but you know it's very interesting that because mccrone wanted to take a swing at trump on his home across home turf a very high profile event here he did get trump's attention but the interesting thing here is that as lou pointed out i mean his instinct is really what is nato

all about and if the europeans want to take over their security requirements where i'm all for that ok because then they're going to find out that russia really has no military threat to them and then we can move forward go ahead john. well don't worry my calm never for a moment contemplated a european army outside of nato and when trump was in the early as a palace he made that quite clear his proposal for the european army was that it would be a component of nato and writ would reinforce nato he he was misunderstood by trump and that's what led to the twitter storm the entire history of the european construction is an american story the americans pushed the europeans into integrating in one thousand nine hundred fifty in order to unite them to fight the cold war ended every single stage since from the marshall plan in one thousand nine hundred seven onwards right through the decades up until the single currency and now and of course with the enlargement of the european union to the east and most recently with the whole ukraine thing the americans have been backing the european

project up to the hilt and nato and the european union are our siamese twins trump's view on this is very schizophrenia yeah it's true he doesn't like nato it's true he wants more money and he's interested no doubt in pumping up like all american politicians pumping up the orders for arms manufacturers all over the country but equally he has said with great them and some great conviction on many occasions that he does not want any country ever to come close to challenging the military superiority of the united states so in that respect i think trump is very close to the neo cons in his genuine convictions. on the broader question of nation and empire i think you know we're all having a laugh in the first part of the program but we must never forget that this this globalist plan is a very nasty and very serious plan which i unfortunately has gone a very long way down the down the road in is very close to being realized it

involves destroying national communities including through mass immigration it involves disenfranchising people through super nationalism because super nationalism quite simply different disenfranchises people and it involves creating an array of of as i say dead. uprooted and disenfranchised and disorientated citizens who effectively don't have the right to vote or have and they have a meaningless vote in order to impose this globalist project which in turn is a combination of grotesque big business financial capitalism and socialism the role that socialism plays in this is of course to bear the costs of all this social upheaval because mass immigration is fueled or at least paid for in part by social allocations in europe and elsewhere there wouldn't be the full benefits or whatever and so you have this sort of horrendous unholy alliance the

enemy of these two forces being indeed the nation state and being people's attachment to their natural communities including to the nation and of course to their right to vote and for their vote to have a meaning and as we've seen now in this terrible nightmare of brics it even in a great democracy like britain there is every danger that even the vote twenty sixteen referendum is about to be extinguished by the political class as it has been in many other european democracies as well so this is very very serious stuff you have all the you know did the market see in the west now is this to give a seal of approval of what the elites want for everyone else and it is that it's just a short ride most of the time you know georgia to get a shift gears a little bit here one of my pet peeves being having been in academia and now in media for a long time is that i'm really sick and tired of the left capturing language in appropriating meaning to everything you know if you watch american cable t.v.

like c.n.n. and m s n b c everything is race as well if everything is racist then nothing is racist and so nationalism is something it's really nasty but there is no there's the people that say that very have. the little idea what they're talking about ok and i find that this appropriation of language you know if you say globalist are all you're a racist an enticing an anti-semite why i don't see any evidence for that but you're here at all the time go ahead george yes yes yes absolutely the right it's now everything is a matter of in kind of a reductio ad hit lehrer on you know you discuss every discussion boils down to hitler well they hitler was full of this so therefore you'll fall for the same thing as hitler was therefore you are like hitler i mean that's the level of discussion i mean a few days ago tucker carlson was debating with somebody or other about nationalism

and tucker carlson kept asking who this person well what exactly is wrong with nationalism and the only thing that this person could come up with was well hitler was a national is so therefore nationalism must be a bad thing and that was it i mean you know however many it's i've stuck with kept asking him the question who always seemed out the same think well hitler was a nationalist. he was as if he was a fascist ok a homo seidel imperatively imperialism imperial and if you look at the good part of the ideology it was socialism ok again these people come out with their bumper stickers and they don't have a clue what they're talking about you know lou here again it's the you know if you look at it's going back to mccrone speech you know the i.m.f. is good the world bank is good the e.u. is good all of the global institutions they are good they are the in body image of

the human condition and human destiny not the nation state well you wouldn't have had any of these things without the nation state in without nations go ahead lou. well we have these are all of course u.s. creations and the u.s. has always wanted to move towards a global state with control in the global state they would like to have mexico and canada in the us together in trade and otherwise and they would they want the good they will their movement they want to global state rather than having nations you know nations are the most natural normal thing we're all born into nations were born into language communities were born into religions and cultures and these are the natural normal human things that they these these people would like to abolish and it's very dangerous as john points out and they're actually pretty close to achieving this and having the u.s.

run the world whether it's satraps in europe and otherwise it's very dangerous it's actually horrendous so we have to defend nationalism of course peace is peaceful nationalism not not not aggressive nationalism not imperialist nationalism right but peaceful nationalism but it's not it's necessary to human society that i mean there's nothing wrong with being aggressive in defending your values in the culture that you were brought up in and maybe wanting to preserve the culture that you of your of your own family of your of your great grandparents great grandparents i mean i don't see anything wrong with that there i mean i think people should be aggressive like we are on this program to defend those ideals which is i don't think these globalist institutions you know give a hoot about what i think and feel or who i am as an individual because they don't want individuals it seems to me john they just want duplications of one you know of their their new man new person whatever it's going to be that's what they want

that's that's what we want to create go ahead john. well you've said the words peter you know you talked about a new man and earlier in a remark you talked about socialism one of the most sinister things that's how about what's happening to us now is that in fact we in the west are living under many of the nostrums which governed soviet russia for seventy years the same ideas that lenin advanced when he took power in one nine hundred seventeen and which the soviet regime advanced both in russia soviet russia and in the warsaw pact countries are now part of the common discourse in the west and they include of course anti fascism which was the key watchword as you know of soviet to tell a tear in regimes because there was a fascist danger everywhere as there is now in the west so we're told and the other watchword and i know that you know this as well as i do peter is of course peace yet the idea that the soviet system was promoted to peace will now we're in the

same situation the west everything we do in the west everything our elites do is devoted to peace and it's only these nasty retrograde nationalists in russia and hungary and elsewhere in eastern europe these backward people these backwoodsman or people rednecks from the midwest it's only they who don't see the advantage of progress so we're in exactly the same. leftist progressivist totalitarian logic as that which settled on the soviet russia and eastern europe for seventy or forty years and it's as if that ideology having been discredited comprehensively east of berlin has now instead simply migrated in sound a new home in western europe where the ground i have to say was prepared throughout the cold war by the dominance of marxism in western universities throughout the ninety's sixty's throughout the nine hundred seventy s. and throughout the nine hundred eighty s. and people who were went to those universities in other words any university because that was true of every single european university and probably

a few american ones as well oh yeah they are now the people running the. world again going to give george the last word here so there i don't see any difference in the the soviet experience experiment to create the new man and. identity politics one is it one leads to the other go ahead forty second storage well that's right and if you remember as i mean the bolsheviks when they came to power fostered all kinds of separatism and why did they fall so separatism because if you get everybody fighting everybody else then of course you can rule the roost and so they you know the other they force of this kind of a national ism this kind of national separatism and that was and that is in a sense what people like georgia. and various corporatist elements are doing today they foster every kind of separatism because that weakens the nation states so

for instance in in russia they would force the separatism in the caucasus. however they also for you know force the ukrainian nationalists and they so they were fostering the very bad and the rats run a hand in georgia ended i would run out of time here i just want to say you could be proud of your nation in makes you feel proud here that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks to my guest and structure of new york and in auburn and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember.

blushes and then she chewed the cheek a total more than the beach he cut the host for each senor he said it's not that it's in detention since that only shooting against. let him into. the utility bills if i said ok you needed at least then you're a loser that i was called but i'm going to have to be scared to show up for the patrol believe you shelley's. give the full support to the such screaming users tell them the d m forty summed up all. the money approachable british mr bush types are imo sure but just.

join me every thursday on the all excitement show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. of the truth of the season with all. my love for sunday and this is they're. going to say the boy the business with the most historical. the feel. this is new day with a. lot of fellows a lot of trouble but a smile because i am. ok

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