hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to briggs it or not to briggs that that is the question remains plan to exit the e.u. has been roundly criticized from virtually every quarter and with a looming deadline the u.k. could face a hard break without an agreement even early elections how did it get to this point . talking brags that i'm joined by my guests in london marcus papadopoulos he's the

editor of politics first magazine we also have alexander mcqueen he's a writer on legal affairs as well as editor in chief of the duran dot com and we have donald he is an associate director of the academy of ideas all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate marcus let me go to you first i'm titling this program broken brags it is that an appropriate title for this program do you think go ahead well allow me to say this i do not like the european union and i never have. but at the same time i don't like the press and i don't like the remains why because both camps are two sides of the same coin they share the same politics the same economics and the same foreign policy objects and they are inherently russian and they support western global. how. let me say this as

a member of the parliamentary press gallery i have a front row seats so to speak and i can assure people watching this episode of crosstalk that brick sits is extraordinarily complicated it is not simple it is not black and white and anyone who says otherwise is not to be trusted to research my has struggled over two and a half years of premiership regrets it but no one should be under the illusion that if. or if someone from the conservative party very small. club was later it would be any more effective than teresa made britain is in unchartered waters and i would also say this pizza that there are that brick city's room with risks and dangers one of them for example concerns and overnight and now i will make this point so it is absolutely imperative that there is

a softball between northern ireland and the republic of ireland awful why is if there is a halt that could potentially undermine the good friday agreement and if the good friday agreement is undermined that could result in an eruption of violence in northern islands the likes of which you know we haven't seen for a great many years so i do not like i do not like the european union but this is unbelievably complex ok let me go to you did teressa may get the best deal that she could get because i'm i have to really question that you know she repeatedly said briggs it means bragg's it so is her deal doesn't really mean briggs it because just about everybody has a negative opinion one way or another about how she understands would brags it's all about go ahead alastair. yeah. i agree to the extent. of ling forty years of being a member of

a supra national organization is not going to be easy and there's lots of complexities about the whole situation that anybody that was charged with negotiating bricks it is going to have to deal with but the fact remains that we are in a situation where the deal that's on the table is one that will see britain in a form or possibly technical sense leave the you but it will remain bound by the rules of the you for the forseeable future with no apparent mechanism to get out of the you i mean in a way those that say that it's a worse situation than currently being member of members of the e.u. are to some extent correct because we will be in a situation where we are whether it's in a transition period or potentially into any sort of backstop agreement if we don't have a kind of bespoke agreement we'll be in a situation where we don't actually have the mechanism to leave because we will

need the european union's agreement to do that while still in all sorts of areas of life whether in social policy or environmental policy economic policy or under the jurisdiction of the law courts and the european court of justice will be still forced to subsist under under european union rules so i think it's it's not it's not bret's it is the bottom line of this we have a deal that is not brics that alexander i guess you know to be a purist in looking at what was voted on it means leaving the european union and i suppose now considering all of the questions and criticisms of me this point. is hard breck's it a real law option right now and if it is what does that actually mean because it's looming my friend did salumi go ahead. well i think it is if you like more a default position than an option because of course pretty says that they wanted

what might happen if the parliamentary and arithmetic is such that there is no agreement are there on breaks on to raise a maze breaks it plan or on anyone else's i mean at that stage britain leaves the european union in march two thousand and nineteen without a deal here is all the problems that go with that now can i just go back to a point which marcus and allister were making i think a lot of the trouble as be the great secrecy was which theresa may has conducted this negotiation she could have said right at the beginning that what she wanted was to keep britain in a customs union or a customs regime and with the with the european union negotiated with the european union on that basis and i think there would have been support for that both in the european union and in the house of commons all she could have said we want to

completely leave the european union entirely and all its institutions and then go she ate it on that basis looking for a timetable behalves of period of five to ten years while step by step we design gauged but with the eventually destination clear she didn't really do why there are of those things she gave the impression that she wanted a complete no clean break but in the end because she conducted the negotiations so secretly she ended up with something else and it is this which is creating our think a lot of the feeling that we're talking about and his this which is creating issues like possibilities of a no deal breaks it alternative. really we're seeing now people talking about a second referendum which it seems to me is really an attempt to rerun the

referendum which is the wrong that the e.u. strategy when the people fail have another vote here marcus believe it or not i'm actually a little bit sympathetic to resume i know i'm going to get a lot of flak for this but if we go back to the election in two thousand and sixteen i don't really think people understood what breaks that actually entailed i mean it's kind of easy to say well we leave the european union but as you said it's far more complex than that and the common market i mean i think most common sense people would say yeah we don't want to stay in that maybe the immigration thing and all these things could be talked about here but i mean it's really about the economy and the i can see how the deal is being could have been foreseen then after what we've seen for the last two years because i like the point that was made any politician into resumes position would. end up paying. a heavy political

price because of what was decided in two thousand and sixteen which was not particularly obvious then go ahead marcus well i'm going to have to disagree if you pay to i don't feel sympathy for theresa may. but i do think it is wrong and it's all and unintelligent for people to be single in her rounds for this for criticism because i said moments ago would it be any difference if dominant. small were later what they would satisfy are parts of the conservative party but they wouldn't satisfy the other parts of the conservative party in the so let's just say to resume is forced to resign and let's say someone from the riots dominick rob becomes the leader of the conservative party well the city is going to be delighted but then the other parts of the conservative party who are act. fully supportive of the european union or possibly supposed to not be happy so we will be

back at this stalemate but you know i think ultimately what it comes down to is this all i personally do not believe in referendums wilson never believed in referendums. never believe the investor and there was some subjects and i do not mean to sound condescending but there was some subjects they are so difficult to understand that the person cannot well i don't know you and i find more of what i find economically so i don't you and i disagreed on this one one could make the are going to go to alistair on this here is that there are some issues that are so very important that you must have a reference to marcus's idea point upside down here allister go ahead. yeah i mean i mean i think there are some very important issues of constitutional matters that you do decide to have a referendum on and it is not as if this referendum is just an instant decision

it's been agitated for among sections of society ever since well at least since the master deal in the early ninety's and and certainly around the time of the lisbon treaty and and onwards so i think people wanted to have a say on this this very important issue and i think it's a little bit sad than in the time since the referendum that one of the things that's come forward quite a lot of the time in order to call the referendum into this disrepute is the idea that people the nation's people are not in a position to judge what the future of society should be on these very important issues because i think you know when i look back at the referendum campaign everybody everybody was engaged. to trying to understand all these quite difficult and complex issues everybody had something to say about you never barely met anyone throughout that time didn't have an opinion they were doing their best to kind of understand the detail but also the the big sort of overarching implications so i

think it was a very important thing to do and i'm honoring our zero utils out and i thought i've got to go to i've got to go towards better i have to go to a hard break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion. with. the chinese economy in the last fifteen years is different than other countries emerging that were once emerging economies that became big economies like united states did the same thing they were export exporting it with unfair advantages until they got big and then. they transition to a consumer economy so china and britain before then did the same thanks china is just following history and now they want to become a big consumer economy and so far so that.

fracking gave americans a lot of new job opportunities i needed to come up here to make some money i commit twenty five thousand dollars as a teacher or i could make fifty thousand dollars a year trucks or chose to drive truck people rushed to a small town in north dakota was an unemployment rate of zero percent like gold rush is very very similar to gold but this beautiful story ended with pollution and devastation a lot of people have left here i don't know too many people here and slowdowns for most of the lost jobs that laid off the american dream is changing that's not what it used to be. and it's a tough reality to deal with. nobody

could see coming that false confessions would be that in this population a profit. any interrogation out there what you'll see is threat promise threat promise threat lie a lie a lie the process of interrogation is designed to put people in just that frame of mind make the most comfortable makes them want to get out and don't take no for an answer don't accept their denials she said therefore would. say i stayed there i would be home by the next day there's a culture on accountability and police officers know that they can engage in misconduct that has nothing to do with solving their crime. welcome back to crossfire we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to

remind you we're discussing bragg's it. ok let me go back to alexander make your us in london it's already been mentioned as program but i think we need to put some shed some more light on it let's let's say the resume loses a vote of confidence in her deal doesn't pass parliament. this deadline remains it doesn't really matter about to resume anymore i mean because that whoever replaces her is going to have the same dilemma in india making of appeasing why variety why the raid groups and ideas i mean this is what you guys call it a sticky wicket i don't know if you can say that on television but it's a mess. it is a very complicated situation indeed and if to raise that many falls and if this deal is rejected by the house of commons then in some ways it becomes even more

complicated because the time or even more to come when to even more exactly. who take who in this situation takes over from to raise and may i mean there is no consensus within the conservative party on who the replacement too would be there are difficulties about holding a general election and having a new government and even if the new government isn't even if there is an election and a new government is called the new prime minister will need time to try and sort all this out now he can all she whoever they are could ask the european union to extend the deadline by a couple of months and they might agree to that but again. coming back to a point alice that was making earlier it is the european union norte britain that would decide that question so i have to say this only thinking this

kind of situation. m.p.'s in the house of commons looking at all of this all going to say to themselves well however bad this deal is all appears to us to be better to keep theresa may better pass this deal because the options of doing all the why's are so complicated and so difficult to judge that we would rather have what looks like the status quo continuing than resolve this issue before march and perhaps trigger a political crisis and in the case of some conservatives risk the possibility of jeremy called in becoming prime minister are you brought up the topic or i want to go markers that's that's to resumes final card final high card isn't it the specter of a labor government and the specter of jeremy becoming prime minister is he using

that as a poll as a political point go ahead marcus or with any doubts that who play a very very influential role amongst the on the conservative benches when the vote comes about three some may still because even so even though some conservative m.p.'s are not happy with the deal their greatest fear of course is germany corbyn become in prime minister and i think there would be a backlash among against many conservative m.p.'s if they were to fota kents the deal and if that was to end up in a general election which at the moment. corbin would win so no conservative m.p. wants to hand the. keys to ten downing street to me corbin but let me just say this of peter i make no pretense to be an authority on economics because i'm not but i would say this that what is the worst thing for another for an economy it's not

a bad deal it's uncertainty now i speak with a lot of diplomats over here especially chinese diplomats and they have told me this they would rather have a bad deal than uncertainty because if you have a bad deal with the world of business you know where you stand and you can do something about it chinese diplomats have told me that if they no longer see britain as a bridge to the mainland of europe to re-explore their goods about pain tavist then they would have to seriously reconsider whether they have a presence in britain but if this uncertainty if there's no deal that's what i'm joy there's no deal that's the worst of all alistair you want to jump in go ahead. yeah yeah i do because i just think it's very important to understand what breakfast is about and the fact is that for the people involved or for breakfast it wasn't primarily a case of economics i'm not saying that everybody was happy to have economic chaos

but i think there's a series of social and cultural factors that framed the decision and framed a vote for bricks that are more important than economics and i think that people have been prepared to suffer a little bit of economic disruption on the basis that in the long term will we'll have something better and that the whole point of brics it was to change things change means disruption that's that's the whole point and we cannot allow breck's that to be undermined by the fears of people having a fear of disruption because in a way that's that's what it's all about and i just think that where we are just now and where we've been for the last couple of years is that effectively we're having a break moment in which the people have demanded breakfast and that the band that we leave the european union but we have no breaks that political leadership or brecht's that movements as it were that is able to lead us to that situation and that's why we've got so much chaos just now because you know that even the even

amongst the european research group or the brics tears within the conservative party in parliament they're kind of numb and don't you know they have no real clear idea of how to move on this their breakfasts hears yes possibly but they have no real inclination as to how we resolve this situation so for me the really big thing just now is that we have to create a situation where the dynamics are shifted to some extent i think whether it's to raise them a been deposed or whether it's a general election you know i leave that openness to what's the best solution but for some whoa there hoss to be a shift in terms of what's. name because i think it's very important this point to reengage the british people in the decision as to how we best get breaks that not having another vote as to whether we get breaks it but how we actually secure it because the people rather than the politicians are the ones that have driven this

process and i don't we badly need them back on board to i think go so it's a very very interesting point about alexander mackerras but how do you do that i mean how do you translate that into into action because i think it's fair to say that theresa may never had her heart didn't i mean actually she was against reg's before she became prime minister i mean i you never saw in the chair and had her heart in it i mean she it was a mandate and she said she would go through with it and that's what her plan is what is the result here i mean if what she do you think genuine in her attempt to get the best deal possible i mean if it is or is that an impossible question to answer go ahead well i actually think in in her own mind she was genuine i say that in the knowledge that of course she voted remaining in the referendum but i didn't think to raise them made intentionally so as this thing only think that she didn't really understand some of the aspects of negotiating this thing properly but coming

back to a point that list of mate and indeed to marcus is also made one should not put all the blame for this debacle on to raise the may when david cameron and the previous prime minister who called the referendum resigned the brick city has failed to organize properly and take the leadership of the conservative party and the country and take control of the negotiation and then into the vacuum to raise them a step in and again it is the same group of people who have a learnt to conduct negotiations in this way sidelining have. exit secretaries nor forming the cabinet regularly if they had wanted all pressed to be involved it's difficult to see how she could have refused so it is a crisis of the political class at least of the conservative part of the political

class that they have failed to lead this process through to any conclusion i want has to say it's probably because going back to two thousand and sixteen none of them expected to find themselves in that position because none of them expected that the good people would vote leave and that they had never really sorted themselves out since then marcus reflect upon that because i sometimes get the impression that i and i think the this storm that briggs it has created is own is not going to be over for a while here is there briggs it fatigue now among people is that you know it is the the they're not even halfway through all of this we could see new elections we could see. the specter of of hard briggs i mean there's a lot of unknowns out there and they've been going around this for two years go ahead marcus i think it's fair to say that the average briton even if those remain

voted for the main actually wants this issue to come to an end they want to see britain leave the european union after the for the first of march two thousand and nineteen because it has dominated the political and economic scene in britain for the last two and a half years and britain is going to leave the european union after march two thousand and nineteen i mean that is going to happen i would also say this about surveys of my she is a genuine politician she's not lead to she doesn't have leadership skills no one has a lot of the presentation. you have to give her credit for that but she is a very conscientious home. work in the bars let me just i will see what it is true it is true that a lot of british people did not just vote for her on the basis of economic reasons they voted for matters of sovereignty but what i say to the camp is this and they

never answer my question i say well if we're going to if britain is going to hold a referendum on regaining its independence from be you find i don't want to you well how about britain holding a referendum on going in its independence from the united states of america. is going to give you the last word what's next. yeah i mean i think it's very interesting just the way that tourism is presenting things i mean the one thing that she's latched on to is immigration which is about the only thing within her withdrawal plan that she can say achieve something that some people wanted i mean she's always been completely illiberal on immigration and you know as someone who's very liberal and wants freedom of movement i've always been against that. you know quite likes freedom of movement so it's you know i'm not particularly pleased that that's the thing that's been seized on to the other thing i think there's interesting is is the way just now that she's constantly portrayed as

a politician resilience i'm sorry i think if you got it was you know really asked two gentlemen she hasn't had resulted but man you know we're run out of time ever since frank underwood died on house of cards i suggest everyone to turn to the briggs it channel now because it's going to get really exciting many thanks to my guests in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember cross titles. you know world big parts of the market and yours it's time to. wait to dig deeper to hit the stories that made stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smart we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the

troops the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. dollars. dollars. dollars i mean that dollar dollar is what i was leaving. when we got garrett over here we care the music with us. we are here we were dragged here. by you have got to get rid of those who are not go away we will not die quietly. real the hard work we do is the true.

good a place called camp sundown the camp for people that can't love the sun and they're like so vampire camp this is like a safe house i guess they don't have to talk about what they go through but that's because we understand our daughter katie was first diagnosed with a very rare sun sensitive condition if i get sunburned i hear she doesn't feel patients when they have problems with the walk to talk to your son the brains that are actually shrinking inside the skull gets weaker in the brain state small. the pain is indescribable it's feels like. really really bad chemical burn but it goes through your skin in your muscles down to the bone. there is no relief. we're not to sure this is just over.

still friends donald trump looks to maintain america's partnership with saudi arabia despite accepting that it's a crown prince that may have known about plans to kill dissident journalist jamal khashoggi back in.