hello and welcome to cross talk were all things considered i'm peter lavelle future historians may look back at donald trump's handling of the murder of jamal khashoggi as a case study of the lack of leadership and outright following his reasons for giving the saudis or rather the crown prince a free pass simply don't make sense why because it's all about iran. talking trump and saudi arabia i'm joined by my guest with the into around he's a professor of political science at the university of tehran in london we have jonathan steele he's an international affairs commentator and in leeds we have

shockey he is a senior lecturer in middle east politics at the university of bradford all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated jonathan let me go to you first in london how do you react to the liberal media's treatment of donald trump these of his statements regarding the crown prince the murder of shogi and yemen and i guess also iran go ahead jonathan. well the direction him for not doing enough to cut relations with saudi arabia or in some way to punish the crown prince mohammed bin so man for his apparent involvement in this a turntable. but i mean there's another much of hypocrisy because. the us is hundred. years and they've done some terrible things. holding variation of yemen was sort of would have been a good much more important than the murder of. cutting down on relations but

instead of that they're actually supporting his version of. home and it's go to turn around here let me read to you something that donald trump said in the last few days here saudi arabia would gladly withdraw from yemen if the iranians would agreed to leave they would immediately provide desperately needed humanitarian assistance additionally saudi arabia has agreed to spend billions of dollars in leading the fight against radical islamic terrorism do you make any sense of any of those words go ahead and. i think those words are actually very ridiculous because iran has no physical presence and yet i mean yes you're on has supported the cooties before but there's been such a blockade on yemen that you're on doesn't have the necessary means to even send humanitarian aid let alone be physically present there with regards to yemen i think we're witnessing the worst humanitarian crisis since world war two i mean save the children which is

a british charity just announced that eighty five thousand children under the age of five years old have died out of starvation in the past three years and essentially we're seeing a blind eye being shown especially by the american towards what the saudis are doing not only that but they have also helped the saudis both in terms of refueling their aircraft as well as intelligence sharing all regarding the issue of islamic terrorism we have to again remember that. out of the nineteen hijackers on the nine eleven terrorist attacks were saudi nationals so how can the saudis be fighting terrorism where when they are the root of terrorism in the region and they have been for mentoring the most extreme form of islam which is what they have spread all the cross the world saw so i don't think those statements by trying to make any sense i have a very strong sense that mr bolton may or may have written those words for the president here i've seen let me go to you in lee in leeds one of the i agree with

jonathan steele i mean the hypocrisy of criticizing trump when you can look at every you know since the second world war the number of dictators that the united states is protected in funded in a given legitimacy so i mean i i really don't take the washington post in the new york times very seriously on this but what i think is here is if there is no pushback against the saudis for being involved in this horrific crime then it's actually enabling the crown prince of saudi arabia that he can actually do anything he wants now there will be no punishment whatsoever go ahead and leaves us. any problem. and it completely if we if you just hear us element or people see what they see it would be a good idea to examine why for peace.

don't use absolutely. all. this it will i think we still haven't completely. why. decide to cheat and actually if we should like to use their hats that we understand why not use one hundred. yes i strongly. and simplistic reductions to that minor. all that to chill john marshall search simply because he was criticizing me simply because he was criticizing his foreign policy in the region although this has been on the leading narrative

all the last few weeks. and element of truth which is and we see in the wish although i cannot find a belief i am one hundred percent but i strongly think that actually john mark karr should she was a cio not because he was criticizing. but. because perhaps he knew too much what he wanted to you that's a very good point because you know he's been betrayed in western media as some kind of dissident but he was really in many ways the ultimate insider is well here jonathan one of the interesting things that we've seen here is that we have had a number of senators lindsey graham for example come out and say the most. demeaning things you could possibly say about a person and then we have the cia coming out with its high confidence message i hate that phrase but that they believe that the the trail of the go goes all the way back to the crown prince it seems to me that this is being picked up as

a domestic political issue in the united states to go after trump or do you think. well there is an element of that and of course the there is a difference of view between syria and president trump on the question of russian involvement in this election of two hundred sixteen etc so russia has already against the intelligence agencies on some other of big issues and so this is part of the ongoing war but i mean just to come back to your initial point about the nonsense. statements of trumpets made let's not forget the recent is twenty eleven trump was quoted as saying that sound you're going to do is the world's biggest funder of terrorism and they're using petrol de petro dollars our own money to fund terrorists and shooting and killing our own people i mean it was done a complete one hundred ninety degree turn now suddenly is saudi arabia. yeah they i mean that twitter archive can be a bit troublesome it times let's go back to turn around one of the things i find interesting what one of the reasons why trump is still speaking about saudi arabia

and the most of perla to terms i mean it is quite bizarre if you look at his twitter feed but it's really his administration is made of made it very clear that the country that you reside in right now is going to target and moving israel in the saudis along with their plans for a say at regime change in tehran they have to stick with the saudis because that's their an enjoyable part of that plan as well as bothersome in is troublesome is that is they the washington has chosen saudi arabia to be a keep pillar in their anti rand policy go ahead. yes so they have been using saudi arabia the americans have been using saudi arabia as a proxy if you will to essentially confront iran nevertheless this hasn't been very successful on under donald trump yet rather than isolating iran they have actually ice of the themselves when they decided to leave the nuclear deal aside from saudi

arabia the u.a.e. and israel virtually the entire international community was against this move and nearly the entire international community is supporting you on and the nuclear deal to stay in place so it hasn't been very successful also i think we have to consider did the downsides of supporting the saudis now when mohammed bin samon came into power we have to remember that killing cautious he wasn't the first reckless behavior from them i mean he started to arrest his political opponents in the ritz carlton hotel the american state side and they didn't do anything they implemented a blog on qatar they didn't do anything they kidnapped a lebanese prime minister and forced him to resign still the americans gave them a free pass and even with canada when they cut relations with canada over just a single tweet that criticized saudi arabia over human rights again the americans didn't support the canadians which are their natural ally so essentially de elavil

did the saudis under the rind of mohamed bin samon to continue with this reckless behavior that they this instance of which is the killing of hostile she and as a result of that even if they weren't directly involved in the killing i think they share a major responsibility in it absolutely we're going to go back to you in leads here or what you know and i want to talk about this in the second half of the program as well is what does the united states get out of its strategic relationship with saudi arabia other than the headaches go ahead. because. we see it's struck with the last six so the months. larry. been talking about that fat bitch shut up be using. it be using his position as the president of the united states

in order to expand existing business empire according to some reliable reports in two thousand and seventeen in own that show companies at least sold city finds a million dollars worth of weeds to plant of their companies we share part of systematically. divides and i very much believe a lot of rules from an ops your buyers will probably from saudi arabia or at least some connection to the i have been very little doubt that i actually don't shop as some personal interests in common of keeping a nice warm relationship between washington well that's not as good as a very interesting theory we're about to go to the break but i think one thing is absolutely clear the neo cons to be surrounded himself with their they're driving

his policy here gentlemen i want to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on trump and saudi arabia stay with arg. the british government and the british establishment and mrs bush and mrs mrs may have worked themselves up into a hysteria about so-called no deal just self is incredibly misleading as i just said in so doing they will allow the european union to impose completely draco nian terms on the u.k. which we've lost anyway. join me ever. on the alex simon chill and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

a statistic from a couple excel came out that showed the wealth and income gap around who were all the different countries and then there's there's the u.s. there's there's france and then there's the u.k. it's like wow this stuff incredible spread between this concentration and then you've got the royalist there are people there in the tory party who support the queen whose whole point of bragg's it was to support the queen ok so they just aired a list and a moron a policy because incredible poverty breaks it's all about supporting the queen and getting rid of their world contacts. nobody could see coming that false confessions would be that profile in this book the way shape or form for conviction if you look at any interrogation out there what you'll see is threat promise threat promise threat lie a lie a lie the process of interrogation is designed to put people in just that frame of

mind make the most comfortable make them want to get out and don't take no for an answer don't accept their denials she said therefore which poor henri said on the statement that i will be home by that time the next day there's a culture on accountability and police officers know that they can engage in misconduct that has nothing to do with solving their crime. welcome back across like we're all. all things considered i'm peter lavelle we're discussing trump and saudi arabia.

ok let me go back to jonathan in london here i suppose it's the biggest problem in many ways is that it's really the united states and have a relationship with saudi arabia rather it has with this royal family and this is what makes the relations very difficult i mean there is speculation that as i mentioned earlier the cia with its report. placing essentially blame on the crown prince but there is there is widely it's widely speculated that the cia doesn't really like the crown prince very much and they would have preferred another candidate and and i and as i said before we went to the break here there are the people that trump has surrounded himself with and they definitely have something for iran in mind ok and and saudi arabia is part of the team and whatever it takes to get the you know the neo-cons agenda to to her wish and they're willing to accept i think that's why when we are our guest in tehran mentioned all of these

failures of the crown prince that's why they're overlooking them ok this is really the case here do you think there is a play jonathan to forward for for family change not necessarily regime change. well i mean if they had mohammed bin nayef who was previously the top sort of security person and he would have been key and so on but it doesn't change the basic parameters of the huge deep relationship between the u.s. and saudi arabia i think it's not just because they're using side you're going to against iran and saudi arabia very willingly going along with that they don't need much persuasion there are two out of big factors one of course is the arms sales huge billion dollar sales of american weapons to some degree of the rich helps the american. but the very big issue in israel the question of israel of course is already they want to do what there is now being called normalization which is to

get the arab countries to start normalizing their going to israel first on the commercial basis television sharing the political and diplomatic to allow israel to have a much freer hand in the middle east and the view we're going to be in reports of on the table contacts between the saudi intelligence people and the israeli intelligence people whom we've seen. you know who went to oman recently and there was a contacts with arab countries as well in the gulf so that's really is a huge thing if they could get saddam going to come out openly declare that israel was a normal states and they could have diplomatic relations with it that would be a huge prize for the total trump and the new york oh yeah and a bit let me go back to. that and that would be a very big prize for jared because apparently that's part of his grand settlement for the middle east there but i don't know i mean if i were in the trump white house i would see that the trials and tribulations of benjamin netanyahu the prime

minister he's in a tight spot politically. he's he's acting foreign minister sorry defense minister right now. so you know you have this normalization of relations between saudi arabia and israel do you think that agenda will work in trying to isolate iran in the region because basically it's a sunni shia thing they're trying to play here go ahead and. yes but the fact is that the trump family and as especially charity or have invested so much in mohammad that it's very difficult to undermine him or change him right now i mean u.s. media actually reported that the list of princes that were arrested in the ritz carlton hotel the rivals of mohamed bin some of them. it was actually given to m.b.'s by jarrett questioner and that's how that's how close they are the problem is however that the new the issue of normalization of arab countries with israel is not

a sunni shia thing it's actually a issue of the palestinians the position of the saudis has always been under fire had they known drop the law that they would only normalize relations when a fair solution to the palestinian problem would be found and the problem we're having right now is this normalization is happening without any sort of more of lucian you who are the palestinians is in fact the palestinian yes in fact the passage situation has even gotten worse for example when the negotiations and settlement happened in the early one nine hundred ninety s. there were only one hundred thirty thousand settlers living in the occupied territories today there is over half a million so the two state solution has essentially died and we have to remember that the issue of normalization with israel is also very unpopular in the muslim world so it's actually going to be a very difficult task both for n.b.s. and for jerry to question or you know i've seen you know it's not the first time

the west is used elite captured to get its way and i agree. if there is such a thing as an arab street you better you better check in with it before you start but the there is a normalization already of relations maybe not so publicly but between israel and saudi arabia is the u.s. wise and i'm not just saying trump now but the u.s. in general is it wise to put all its eggs in one basket i mean on this relationship between saudi arabia and israel what is the downside because i don't see a whole really a whole lot of upside go ahead of shimon leans leads. us . one of these three. to. effectively change everything into a political landscape. he needs he believes that actually. he's the

alternate source of trouble and american insecurity in the region alder who resists the rain in position in the middle east he has to kind of create peace alliance the triangle between washington d. and reacts and he's not suprising tool for the last three or four weeks when effectively every important politician expressing some concern about the situation particularly when we realize that there was the don't recall election between the south establishment and the killing of john for sure cheap easy to live in israel because the people like not on yahoo constantly said yes what's happened was not nice but at the same time easel and the huge what they call stability and security in the middle east that requires their continuous position

all through. been inside so if you can assert their position well for american foreign policy with these pretty specific front the x. at least then it doesn't make sense to maintain and be so lying in all due to constitute a need for pressure against against iran well i just think your answer is well you know if i could you actually know i can say let me go to jonathan here right now the over the last fifteen years or so the more the west and its proxies in the in the region try to isolate it around the more powerful rand gets i really don't understand there's no learning curve these people just don't learn here jonathan they were one of the most tragic things i think for me and i made it a point on this program to. continue discussing what's going on in yemen it took leake the murder of shogi to actually get the yemen story into the mainstream media and it was about time here what worries me is big giving you know giving dictators

a free pass is nothing new ok at all all right but in this case here isn't it enabling saudi arabia's her writhing murderous policy visa v yemen to go unchecked . going to use indigent it is going on unchecked i mean the united states has made some little minor adjustments they said they weren't helped with the refueling in-flight refueling of saudi croft at a bombing in yemen but only about twenty percent of the flights involve u.s. refueling so the eighty percent is still going ahead the u.s. also has been calling for a cease fire but that's easily done unless you put some diplomatic clout behind it and threaten to withdrawal help from mohamed bin solomon he's never going to agree to a cease fire there have been some pinpricks things reacting. by the u.s. but there is another point i'd like to make which i think is important in the trump statement which is to say he parroted the comments that king solomon and mohammed

bin some on the sun and said which is to jamal khashoggi was linked to the muslim brotherhood don't know if that's true but the muslim brotherhood is the real danger for the saudis and that's why they hate it so much because it offers and political islam but with democratic rights and elections and proper political parties and so on which is why are they wanted to see it destroyed in egypt against qatar because qatar helps out the muslim brotherhood bad relations with turkey because turkey is in a sense very similar to the muslim brotherhood having an islamic political party in power so that is an also another element in wired and it's the saudis against kushal ji. let's go back to tehran here. i want to stay with the issue of yemen here what is it going it looks like there is just no political will because we have the defense secretary in the united states matters he's again saying that there

will be talks in december but it sounds like it's just the can gets keep getting kicked down the road i mean there is no political will in washington to to stop the saudis and their surrogates destroying yemen what does the united states get out of that what does the west in general get out of a destroyed yemen where it's basically moving towards a form of genocide go ahead. yes so instability in the war in the middle east is good for washington in the short term because i mean they sell billions of dollars of weapons to disability so the saudis being involved in war is actually good for business and i think that's something to donald trump made very clear in his recent statement essentially saying that this is part of the america first policy where you know the saudis can get away with what they're doing because they're bringing jobs and money to the united states well i would say i'm sorry i wouldn't really had really i would really contest that ok the deals that he's

talking about are in the pipeline they're not even really signed i mean the bombs on the planes they all came from the bush obama era it has had no input zero impact on arms sales to saudi arabia at this point i'll give you the last word into iran go ahead yes i would totally agree with that the trump is an expert in exaggerating numbers but i would say that even if those numbers were true in the long run this kind of policy of supporting an aggressive dictator like m.b.'s is going to be bad for u.s. interests the saudis have for men to a lot of instability in terrorism in the region i mean when the rise of a group such as isis which came out of the illegal invasion of iraq essentially had an ideology. twelve out of twelve books out of comments that i'm sorry i actually i have to jump in here more by i have to jump in here where run out of time many thanks to my guests into iran leeds and london and thanks to our viewers for

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