yanks this is what happens to pensions in britain. watched as a report. hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle it's ukraine versus russia again a minor maritime incident on the courage strait is said to be anything between a major international crisis a cheap campaign trick as ukraine enters an election cycle take your pick but one thing is for sure russia is deemed aggressive by the west even when defending its sovereignty.

cross talking strained relations i'm joined by my guest and real concern to in london he's a foreign affairs consultant an analyst we also have in london married a chef ski she is a columnist for the independent and the guardian and in washington we have michael maloof he is a former senior security policy analyst in the office of the secretary of defense all right cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate mary let me go to you first here. i obviously read up on prepared for this program i looked at all of western media and government reactions and i have foreign policy an article that came out on the twenty seventh and the title is putin pushes russia ukraine tensions to a four year high now the reason i mention that and i think i'll quote something of it later is that there's there's so sumption that they can assume what russia's intentions are always no matter what the topic but in this instance there's very little attention given to what ukraine actually did and. and then

russia's reaction to those actions here again we have these diametrical different. narratives in play here one of demonization and one is a wrong party when it's far more complex than that and far more dangerous than that go ahead mary. well i was have to say that i was very surprised to wake up to discover the bin this. clash of navies essentially in the straits of care that russia and ukraine seem to be on the verge of a maritime war. and it all seemed incredibly dangerous. and ukraine had managed very successfully and i think to get its version of the story out first. so their version which i mean it has essentially been disproved. was that there were two gunboats and

a tug and that russian ship. crashed into the tugboat deliberately. and there are two. crews of the two gun boats have been taken prisoner and are now in what is. russian annexed crimea so i think those to those facts are there but the question of why they're not married they're not even address those are not even the facts ok first of all if you look at the footage the tugboat was desperate to be hit by the russian ship i mean it with zigging and zagging and if you want to stand russian well enough you couldn't repeat those words in english because they were saying basically get out of the way all right ok let me go to michael here michael this all happened on sunday but on saturday and the friday before and the week before

and the month before ships were going under that bridge into that sea unimpeded why you got a call up and say hey we're coming through this is our type of boat this is the type of time this is what we're carrying and we and do you have a pilot there that can escort us that protocol the. they'd been doing that for years but not on sunday and ukraine didn't put that story out it didn't notify the proper authorities here that story the ukrainians forgot to give out go ahead michael. yeah it's subject to the protocols back in two thousand and three and up right at that point they were abiding by it for the most part but the problem is this is in a larger strategic picture what you're seeing here is the west looking for an excuse to go after moscow secondly you're also seeing that poor shank of the president of ukraine is in serious political troubles area strong and

i smell a tail wagging the dog here reminiscent of saakashvili back in georgia in two thousand and eight when he provoked the russians and shot. russian peacekeepers in the south and then the war was on at that time it was to try and get nato to protect georgia in this case i think by declaring martial law as for shan't go did he's trying to solidify his political base if he can so let it out at night at eight percent and so little area let me go to you in london let me give this little tidbit out to everybody when you know kobe was even legally ejected from the presidency in february two thousand and fourteen his public opinion approval was twenty four percent puerto shango by even ukrainian accounts is eight percent so i wonder what's really in play here i don't know what the intentions

were on the street straight but i can see political maneuvering on the part of put a shank oh and the people that put him in power go ahead in london. thank you peter as you rightly pointed out. it is the. in. the march two thousand nine hundred. we see the elections coming in the ukraine in the support of the current president of ukraine was the poroshenko just did what he did so. what he evaluated i mean the ukraine violated the article mine hundred twenty of the un convention or the. all the see. it was a provocation as everyone is saying this but what was the purpose of this. all of this provocation is internally to cause the. you know. any

sort of gatherings or protests in ukraine to regulate the media as you rightly pointed out mr poroshenko estimating today he's chances to get through the second round of the presidential elections in ukraine is zero he's not even able to get to the second round what mr. he's waiting for the council contest straight from the u.s. he's waiting to be a good knowledge of the right for hold over power in the ukraine or also this. for the us neo cons to use the ukraine for the base to attack russia in the future i mean let us be clear yesterday my professor from from the you know university of warsaw professor contacted me at night saying done what they are doing asking me what they are doing well i mean when we are sitting in moscow in washington zero in

london it looks like a zero is another conflict no you know that on the border between ukraine and poland there are protests and people are fighting one child ok hang on no i go ok all right let me another yeah let me go let me go to mary here you know you know mary with this proclamation of martial law all of us here on this program and many of our viewers have been following what's been going on in ukraine so this is the first crisis situation ukraine is face to declare martial law that is quite amazing here. and of course with the impending election cycle. the shutting down of public display discourse controlling the media here where is the outrage about vacuum western media and from the u.s. state department and everybody else that was quick to blame. interpret russia's intentions go ahead mary. well i think that the declaration of martial law was

certainly seen as a quite drastic move which seemed completely out of proportion to the clash the been in the straits of catch. but i think that something quite interesting has happened that may reflect. some of the difficulty is that maybe some of ukraine's western sponsors had with the with the whole concept of declaring martial law so close to an election and this was that when the proposal came before parliament in ukraine as i understand it it's actually been reduced quite significantly so while the initial idea was that the whole of ukraine would be subject to martial law with all the restrictions on freedom of speech freedom of assembly presumably election campaigning and all that. the the

provision that is actually passed through parliament is for something rather less than that i think it only goes up to the twenty seventh of december so yet couple of months before the election it's also restricted to the border areas of ukraine so to that extent it can be seen or at least it can be justified by ukraine as. a security measure and i wouldn't be i mean and i just get the impression and this may be totally wrong that between. president poroshenko saying he was proposing martial law and parliament actually discussing it that may have been some rather urgent to transmit may he finally says western embassies advice to say well maybe this actually doesn't look very good to maybe you had better think of it rather maybe limited to

a bit in terms of the time in terms of the geography. and i think that's what seems to have happened ok michael i could tell you want to jump in go ahead. what hasn't been mentioned yet is that under that martial law. he can actually postpone elections if he so chooses so this gives him on the usual a lot of presidential authority in which he can and which he can. you know continue on and and you can access and he can expand the martial law provisions indefinitely if he chooses to do so so this is not this is almost an open ended course it is that the west is not i'm not addressing well in those kind of a i mean look i mean ukraine on sunday broke a number of provisions of international law when it comes to the to the sea and so ok so i mean do we have a lot of confidence that they're going to keep their word out or passing this law through parliament i mean one other i don't have

a computer mike i've got to jump in here we have to go to a hard break after that break we'll continue our discussion on strained relations stayed with ard. i go to a place called camp sundown to get for people that can't bluff side and they're like so vampires. this is like a safe house i guess they don't have to talk about what they go through with us because we understand her daughter katie was diagnosed with a very rare sun sensitive condition if i get sunburned i heal she doesn't feel

patients are going to have problems with the walk to talk to some of the brains of her actually shrinking inside the stove gets flicker in the brain still small. the pain is indescribable it's feels like a really really bad chemical burn but it goes through your skin in your muscles always down to the bone and there's no really. we're just not sure this is let's just. make this manufacture consent instant to the public wells. when the running clubs isn't protect themselves. when the firemen larry go around to listen to the woman post so. we can all middle of the

room signals. the real news is. when a loved one is murder it's natural to seek the death penalty for the murder i would prefer it be to the death penalty just because i think that's the fair thing the right thing research shows that for every nine executions one convict just found dennison the idea that we were executing innocent people is terrifying. smooth doesn't mean that we want even many of the times families want the death penalty to be abolished the reason we have to keep the death penalty here is because that's what murder victims' families what that's going to give them peace that's going to give them justice and we can then say. we've been through this this isn't the way.

i meant to buy even when he got to try to get it somebody's going to buy. welcome back across like we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing strained relations. ok let's go back to michael maloof in washington we had to cut you off we had to go

hard break finish up my friend you know one thing that's not been mentioned all that much in western media is the fact that for months leading up to this this episode. ukrainian ships were also detaining russian ships in that very same area and that's been going back and forth back and forth because of the protocols and the challenges that are required so this is not just a one sided thing and if and this morning there was a an interview of the captain of the ukrainian ships who basically said we were asked to provide information and what our intentions were and we and my my orders from higher authority was don't respond. so it really looks like it was a planned provocation but what i think i think is quite clear to anyone that wants to look at the facts here and you are to mention nato here nato popped up or immediately to talking about ukraine i mean ukraine is not

a member of nato number one ok and it should be made clear here and also this seems to be a provocation on a larger scale to have ukraine become a member of nato which you know it's kind of like forcing it through here but this is the but this is very this is very ill founded logic because if in case we as we saw on sunday there are tensions between russia and ukraine for a variety of reasons why would nato want to have a member within their alliance that has bad relations with and with a neighbor that could come to a military exchange what is the logic i thought nato was about projecting speace instability it seems to me they're doing just the opposite go ahead in london. it's one thing to have. a ukraine as a member in order to use eastern europeans as

a common for the they know the ukrainian. current situation in ukraine led by the nazis because that will be a clear all the jewish newspapers and all the media and all the research as the new analyses in ukraine is doing very well so the main main main main cause and main main thing to have as a close all is to use the. as a stick to the russian bear and also from the geopolitical point of view let us not forget. who clearly written in his democratic ideals and reality. that. rule. europe commands the heartland who rules the how. i learned who rules the world island commands the world so let us not be deceived by the new

staples like for the guardian. simon jenkins has written all of a problem straight off the information coming out about the ukrainian soldiers sailors have been captured forget about breaks in the ukraine the war in ukraine. for europe so let us be fair the machinery to p.r. machinery behind this is coming from the english there i mean it is beyond comprehension i mean you know if you project the situation it's just the opposite is very comprehensive to me because it all seems to fit together i mean like it's like an oiled machine it really kicked in mary of course i mean you know hang on we're going to marry that we got to make it and if you see there's a big talk is one of the first reactions to all of this is that this is also aimed at the trumpet ministration you know the trumpet ministration is saying should

russia over and over again congress has more sanctions on the way for the script affair that the u.s. has nothing to do with but anyway. and then we have the g. twenty i mean you know so make sure trump and putin don't talk here i mean i think that's a bit of a stretch but because i think the u.s. russia relations have been so soured it'll take a generation for that to change and i can tell you most people on my side of the pond of just given up on good relations just have to remain bear getting through what we are now go ahead mary. yes well i mean the question of the g. twenty and the probable meeting of president trump and president putin in argentina in the framework of that meeting. that has certainly been mentioned as a consideration maybe for the timing. of this clash in the straits now i don't know whether that's true or not but in a way if it was designed to do such

a meeting and to prevent any sort of agreement it's probably only half succeeded because in a way new tension between russia and ukraine actually provides a better reason for the two of them to talk so i mean i'm not completely convinced that it would actually frustrate that sort of meeting but i think that's something else that maybe we've neglected in all of this which is that when you look at the map. of the sea of ours of where this instant happened. this is an accident waiting to happen here it is an absolute nightmare for free and when you when you actually consider you know i think what was forgotten when when this clash was first reported nobody has mentioned i think the fact that there was actually a clash way back in two thousand and three you know almost in the very same place

and the fact that there is another occasion agreement for the sea of dates for a clash that was the outcome of that clash that it was agreed that there should be shared navigation between russia and ukraine through the sea of us of the regulations put in place and in a way it's almost remarked more remarkable that this is the first serious serious incident since two thousand and three. that then nothing else force. yes regulations which were put in place from an emergency basis how factually held yeah you're absolutely let me go to michael mary brings up an excellent point but then that goes we go right back to the beginning it was a mechanism that did work it was working up until saturday and then there was an intention to break that understanding here and we have to remember there's

a three point two billion dollar bridge there now which is a great strategic importance to russia they have to use extra assets to protect it and we've heard ukrainian politicians and others that say it's a legitimate target for destruction an act of terror go ahead michael yeah i you know i don't believe in coincidences at all. the fact the fact that there is going to be the g. twenty and this this indicates that porsche and co was leading up to that pretty much like what we saw as i refer back again to two thousand and eight with the georgian incident in which saakashvili was warned repeatedly don't antagonize russia which he was planning to do this is what's happening again and now it's drawn in as a result the big the big boys and and what's interesting is that trump himself has been rather silent on all this so i think that he and he is sending

a signal really that intends to cheat to cool it down a little bit he's going to have that meeting and things are going to work out i think he's looking forward to that meeting with with putin and he still has a desire to work with putin on a number of a myriad of issues but but this clearly was a calculation on the part of poor shank oh and people close to him and the people within the state particularly the state department and the neo cons that antagonize these guys because that their relationship with the porsche and go government is very very strong and so they're the. amount of instigation there is incredible to to incite and i think that that's what we have here in preparation for this meeting in order to get basically the say i'm not going to talk to putin i don't think that that's what trump wants to do me a little he wants to make and i think he's and i think that it's going to be my point and i think it's interesting is that he would prefer to blast a resume over briggs than to tweet about ukraine. g.'s to resume he

can't win or lose in these states i reckon. it is not high on his priority i don't let me go back to add really in london here it's speaking of the sea of. results you know i have read that the land council is proposing members of the atlantic council that the this should be militarized is that you know what nato should go in there it's a shallow sea then nato ships can't even navigate it maybe some dogs but i think it's like seven meters deep what are you going to do what kind of ship do you want to put in there i mean i guess if they want to do that then why shouldn't rush should be able to put its ships into lake michigan that's fair when you say go ahead. i mean what we can see a difference between the behavior of russia and america i think any any other country than russia if they would be attacked and program. you know

constantly by so many western powers we would already have a nuclear holocaust in this planet are. full of you know praise for for president putin and for his administration that they. keep you know the on the ground i mean you know they are not willing to participate in this you know it is foreign policy movement this is a textbook study in patients to interested. patience and mary you know i said in my introduction. you know russia is the demonized and called the aggressor when it defends its own sovereignty i think you know that's something the foreign policy blob with michael is right now they can never come to the conclusion they never can reflect upon but. russia will do everything it can to protect its sovereignty and

its demonized for a last word goes to you mary. yes well i mean i think there's an awful lot of misreading of russia's position. pretty much everything pretty much with the with the assumption that russia is aggressive rather than defensive and the motives a mis read because of that. but i also think that michael and both absolutely right when they say that both trump and putin. have really kept out of this latest clash or whatever they said has been very low key and designed to tone things down. and i think that means that water hopefully absolutely. but i think that that means that whatever. the rights and wrongs of may have happened the two big players in this are at the moment determined that it shouldn't escalate into well sort of ok let's keep our fingers crossed that's

a semi optimistic note here that's all the time we have here many thanks to my guests in london and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. i'm one of them but i think. we're buddies.

i don't want or i came. into that community yeah. he could feel that he had to keep. going a he made a move although that one of. us producing a lot of oil and gas and our energy and abandonware as big as the bin russia and saudi arabia but as you're making there is that they're actually losing money on every. us veterans who come back from war often until the same stories. were going out for the people who were killing

civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either there already is several generations of them so i just got this memo from the search that says we're going to attack and destroy the government in seven countries in five years americans pay for the wars with them money those lives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war surely we can risk some discomfort for i need. for. the russian president called sunday's m r a time clash between russian and ukrainian vessels nothing but provocation describing anti moscow sentiment as a browning to sell out of ukraine's general election next year.