this happened even the ecuadorians are in the in the apt but we are watching it unfold in front of our eyes it's the criminalization of journalism. across talking julian assange i'm joined by my guest joe lauria in washington he's editor in chief of consortium news dot com and author of how i lost by hillary clinton with a forward by julian assange also in washington we have gareth porter he's an independent investigative journalist and historian as well as author of manufactured crisis the untold story of the around nucular scare and in plymouth we cross to patrick and he is a journalist writer and founder of the news website twenty first century wired dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it and i to open up by saying thanking all three of you to come here to speak out on the behalf of the profession known as journalism it's

a pretty scarce profession at least. acted out in the live by professionals so i'm glad that you're here gareth let me go to you first and let's talk about journalism because julian a songes his case his case study as it were is a precedent in the making and it really galls me that the profession cannot see the slippery slope that we're all staring down at once it happens to julian assange as a publisher then who's next go ahead gareth. well i can't agree anymore with what you said it's clear that songe is on the block here in a way that is extremely dangerous to the profession of journalism. because it would in fact. i think you just suggested it would set a precedent for the u.s.

government to go after journalists under a wide range of circumstances. as long as they can portray somebody as somehow connected with the enemy whatever that enemy might happen at the moment. yeah you know i think that that is indeed the issue that we're staring in the face here joe you did a wonderful interview with chris hedges and i commend everyone. to watch it as i think was absolutely brilliant explain to us how the espionage act could play out these of julian assange because considering the conditions that he's living in in the ecuadorian embassy in london it sounds like it's getting pretty desperate over there they're obviously trying to flush him out without the ecuadorian embassy government being embarrassed we go through the list of things that they've done to him but it's obvious they want to give him the show of here how's the espionage act

of one nine hundred seventeen play into this go ahead joe thank you peter yes espionage act does play a big role in this if in fact he's been indicted as a criminal complaint is very likely under the one nine hundred seventeen espionage act however if he were indicted under the original nine hundred seventeen espionage act there would not have had to amendments that were made to the act one in one nine hundred fifty one in one nine hundred sixty one the one thousand nine hundred fifty criminalize possession of stolen documents classified documents in other words before that and it is still pretty much politically the case that. if a publisher or a newspaper receives classified information and publishes it they are not look you considered to be liable only the person who stole the document the whistleblower who gave it to the publication but under the one nine hundred fifty. amendment now anyone who possesses it could in fact be prosecuted so even if doing a songe and we could be x. and not actively take part in the crime of taking the documents because they had

them and disseminated them they could be prosecuted however this is never happened yet because there was no cli as we disastrous yeah i mean because it's a political decision not a legal one but the other other memo i want to mention is people keep bringing up he's not an american citizen and this act of publishing took place outside u.s. territory while the original nine hundred seventeen espionage act specifically said this had to take place on u.s. territory that was changed in one thousand nine hundred one when a congressman got upset by a state department official in poland who apparently gave in to blackmail while he was outside the u.s. so that the act was changed so you don't have to be on u.s. territory anymore as well so if they want to go after him they can but it's never happened before the nixon administration did not go after senator mike gravel when he published the pentagon papers outside the congress where he's protected to say whatever he wants and it hasn't happened since john peters anger in sixteen thirty five colonial america that a government of britain then the british colonial govern went after

a publisher for writing something that turned out to be true but they didn't like it because they were on uncovered exposed crimes by the government so he's in a very precarious situation because the trump administration might be the first one to actually do this even though politically it's never been been the right decision even though they have the legal tools they've never been used and i should add the new york times number two lawyer was out on the west coast few months ago and told judges in a speech that they did not want to songe prosecutor because the new york times could be next because they're just writing thing we can leaks does publish classified information you know patrick and that did see that's the whole wrinkle here because they're going to they're going to say. julian assigns was more than a publisher and that's why i think the report is very germane here because they want to make people believe because because i do this on their on the way they can do it they could actually do all of this against him if they get their hands on him in secret and we would never really know what evidence all we would have to do is

believe the judge and believe moller which i wouldn't believe either considering what's happening here way and patrick go ahead well there's an order that you just laid out there peter if that is indeed what will what they're trying to to do what they're what might happen that would essentially preserve the narrative so in other words if you go there they could go through the shirat of due process or whatever passes for due process today into these political environment and then preserve the narrative which essentially is russia gate a russian collusion which to date there has been no actual evidence to sort of substantiate that and that's the premise of this whole. circus basically what robert mueller and the special counsel have been digging for and digging through dumpsters for for the last two years literally. literally recently to is this really a dumpster fire of fake news basically so but that's what that's the premise of the

this whole thing. that you're absolutely correct that's one danger but peter the other thing that very related to this is the case of a drone corsi which is in the news right now and they're trying to you know maneuver or try to maneuver corsi into a position where he would in fact you know libel himself essentially in order to accept a plea bargain which he's already rejected but the point is and the point corsi made in an interview with them is n.b.c. which is an excellent example of a decent interview although it's quite tough the interview from you. but even if a staunch had stole the documents himself and you know course he still is protected as a journalist under the new york times versus the united states case with the pentagon papers so he has a right under basic press freedoms to go and find out and he can even look at them and he can report on them you add to this the context of the twenty sixteen

election and of course he made his political biases known to the public he's pro-choice and of course i'm interested in this and see if i can help the trunk and paint drum corps he's been more honest and transparent and put his biases on the table more than the investigation which looks like the core body was honest but you have to get everything to weigh in on that because i mean there are there is a long history of the espionage act being used but it wasn't really journalism and even even the pentagon papers they never invoked had there this is the precedent that's being said here is that a publisher can be made to face charges under espionage as actually a traitor to his country country he's aiding and abetting an enemy whatever though there is no enemy has been identified in this in this case here so i mean this is

the criminalization of journalism ice as i said in my introduction. well you know i think that's that's absolutely right i think what what you were talking about here is precisely a response to the the moeller team's need for the ability to squeeze joy in a sunshiny that appears to be the real prize that is that they see within their grasp or potential grasp i had thought originally that really this was about the cia's embarrassment over the vulgarisms by wiki leaks of the vault seven documents because they were so clearly showing that the cia not only has been rampaging through all of the electronic media or electronic

devices of everyone across the globe but that they had the capability and undoubtedly used it at some point or planning to use it to to make it look like another foreign intelligence agency was responsible for the hacking and clearly the timing of the original decision that was announced to go after a songe came immediately after the release of the vault seven documents so there did appear to be a connection there but i am now more and more persuaded by the idea that there must have been there must be a primary connection here with the mother of the mall or folks who only you know met at this same time has to wonder one has to wonder but then you can kill a lot of birds with one stone this is like this is like that silver bullet you get russia gate taking care of you cal the media you get journalists in line it's a bit it's a perfect storm if you're if you're at the state here fifteen seconds joe real

quick and then i'll go back i think break we're talking about a finish up garrett go ahead. peter i think what we're what we're talking about is a convergence of two possible or likely sets of interests here that both are after assad for different reasons ok all right general i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussions. with our.

despite this out of need. not authorized. to go it's a great. program where for. the most almost the whole c.d.m.a. job if you get that they're going to go has a funny but it was you know you. get out. and write down the bank call for the right guy based walker chemical lights and this is going to that he would develop a new treatment in ten minutes no mockers no that these industries out of polluting you had to simply ignore the money that type and mother. and the mother the things we lost even this.

most people think just stand out in this business you need to be the first one on top of the story or the person with the loudest voice of the biggest race in truth to stand the news business you just need to ask the right questions and demand the right answer. question. when a loved one is murder it's natural to seek the death penalty for the murderer i would prefer it be with the death penalty just because i think that's the fair thing the right thing research shows that for every nine executions one convict is found innocent the idea that we were executing innocent people was terrifying

there's just no room to present in that we weren't even many of victims families want the death penalty to be abolished the respect to get power here is because that's what murder victims' families want that's going to give them peace that's going to give them justice and we come in and say. we've been through this this isn't the way. welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing julian assange. ok let me go back to joe in washington again you know this russia gate moeller report and julian assange i think that is all tightly connected particularly the

timing here because i'm convinced with the public evidence that's available that julian assange did not get those predestined e-mails from russia he got it from someone and probably on a memory stick ok the n.s.a. with all of its assets could have figured out if that amount of information had been sent over the internet it was vast ok so they would have been able to pick that up so so they know where it probably came from but it doesn't fit their narrative inter julian assange in a secret court and you tie all the all that you pull all the threads together you tie it up into one little pretty bow that the western media the liberal media will sell it saying gotcha. joe what's your reaction. well absolutely in fact it goes back to two thousand and ten what the afghan war logs and the iraq collateral damage tape that's when julian and his lawyers believe the indictment was first made but now we do does bring itself very clearly into the russia gate

story and ruler and luke harding a journalist journalist at the guardian here that the british government has a journalist masquerading as a as a clown yes go ahead. yeah but the real change here also is the ecuadorian government changed the previous government left wing under correll gave him a songe asylum was protecting him and this his status would not have changed but the new government is very close to the us and has been pressured by pence vice president prince and others and they want to get him out so these three can picking up on what garrett was saying about confluence of interest is the interest of the government get him out of the british and the us to get him and of luke harding to get his reputation restored because he recently unearthed bestseller called collusion there is no evidence of collusion he has to go find some so the ecuadorian intelligence and the us knowing that the guy's going to be very open to

anything it's fed him this absolutely fairy tale that poem and if it went in and then met with. three times the last times more or less when he became the head of the trump campaign they need to connect the trunk campaign to a sondre and we could weeks and therefore they say to the russians they haven't been able to do this so this is an opportunity given to harding who grabbed it and ran with it without any video evidence of man for going in and out without his passport having been given or logging in at the embassy the zero evidence he went there they both furiously denied both manifold and weekly leaks of weekly suing the guardian for this story so if russia gate has brought this absolute to a head ecuador wants him out you markets want him and they they need and moolah needs a collusion evidence because every indictment he has. put out has specifically said when they announce that there's no americans and no trunk campaign people involved there's no collusion yet they haven't found it so they cooked up this story about manfred which is i don't think it's going to go very far frankly peter because it

is so ludicrous well patrick let me go to you i mean. luke harding is never really bothered much with facts he does a different type of thing and i think you know what i mean. patrick one of the things that's really sad here is that if you look at the fascinating career of weiqi leaks and they've been right just every single time they have a wonderful track record no news agency can match that but through the career of weiqi leaks and julian assigned she's made a lot of enemies during the bush years the democrats loved george w. bush was criticized with all the document releases but then when but desta came around it switched now both parties and the deep state and feckless people who call themselves journalists don't want to stick pull their head out of the ground i could use other language but this is t.v. you know this is a perfect storm against julian assange isn't it. you know it is if if truth

if truth was was the gold standard by which professional journalism was measured then wiki leaks and julie songe would be heralded heralded right now instead of hounded yeah joyce and could walk right out the door within weeks and he would have had everybody rallying on his side but there's been a major political alignment a realignment as it were and i think this began under the obama administration is has to do with a lot of things including the the division or split of this of the antiwar left or the remnants of it opposed to bush but also the fact that russia that's the reason d'etre of washington right now in terms of geopolitics and so that that split is pronounced but the other thing is. that with the guardian two to knowingly they had a heads up the day before when the when the story was published online you need

think that they were they still ran with it on the morning print edition the following morning i went to the newsstand and there was this completely fabricated story and they had like at least i don't know how much time to stop the press from the day before but they ran with it anyway this tells me that there's a deep seated corruption within mainstream media outlets and i think it's becoming more than an open secret now that there is a sort of a level of penetration by the intelligence services in the west whether that's through influence or through actually in bet embedded people in editorial desks or whatever but we have to thank luke harding and denny collins for helping to expose this we owe them a great debt of gratitude this week because it showed exactly what these mainstream media outlets are doing in a coordinated fashion and i know i'm going to add the anonymous document dump of the integrity initiative which is a m.k. and national and dominant for democracy funded initiative working with mainstream journalists to coordinate anti ra. ssion talking points at the hub is the atlantic

council and the deal far less so that was exposed this week as well so all of these exposures really point to a damning indictment that the fourth estate has become a fifth column yeah working against the interests of the public interests this is devastating in terms of the general narrative of the state of the media or what's left of the free press in the west people should really take a step back and look at this this is an absolute circus what's playing out in front of this and that and i'm waiting for people of honest character to step forward people who are there who they were there on this program ok there are a lot of there aren't very many more but some of them are here ok we need we need more we need more of them and let me quickly just add to guardian then fold this up with a story by john swing from their new york bureau and they used a source is glenn simpson function g.p.s. and they didn't even mention that he works for fusion they just had an expert on

the matter glenn simpson so my question is is is a fusion g.p.s. using the guardian as a dumping ground for all the leftovers now this is just out of control it's amazing using one of the garrett when one of the things it's fascinating to me and watching the julian assange slash story and russia gate is that there is almost absolutely no downside in being wrong you know as if you look at the protest the e-mails we learned a lot that's what makes them so angry that you learned a lot about hillary clinton in her campaign and we also learned for us on this program is that new york times journalists would send their copy to the d.n.c. to be proof read to be fact checked to be approved before it would be published now if that isn't a sad state of affairs for journey. listen i don't know what is ok you asked the

powers that be that you genuflect to the powers that be if you get permission to print propaganda this is pathetic go ahead gareth that's that state of journalism now. you know i think the point is here that you can you can get away with almost anything as long as it is in line with the than the official. the accepted narrative and that that seems to be what we're seeing play out here but i have to say that there are limits of some sort in that. you know you can publish something that is so obviously off off the charts and that that is not believable that it causes problems and i think luke harding has strayed into that territory not the friend and a very positive evidence that i would offer for that but at the right i would just

point out that politico this morning had a piece by a former cia operative who suggests that luke harding was was taken for a ride by somebody who is on the other side of the issue trying to discredit him which is a rather interesting well development a story ok well let me go let me go to joe i mean i met luke harding about a couple of times here in moscow and he was really the laughingstock of the entire foreign press corps here so not the first time for this guy you know he's a he has a real track record there maybe when you meet him ask him about his plagiarism of a. satirical magazine called the exile ask mark eames he was the editor of it there joe what's you know again you know the our our numbers are thinning the people that want to do real journalism here i'm very pessimistic i don't see it turning around because you have a fusion of the media into the state and everybody's happy everyone's with. rich

you don't have to think mary very much stupid people can be on t.v. a lot i mean everybody wins on their side it's all about status career isn't vanity fame money and the and the sucking up to people in power and you know journalism has a power even greater than the power of government because our power if it's exercised is to keep those in power in check instead we see journalist it's been going on for a while now they sucking up and living vicariously through the power of government officials and just taking whatever they say and not challenging it and this is what hartings problem was in this particular case he was sold a bill of goods yes but i think not because as garrett pointed out from that cia piece to try to discredit him by the people who were supporting assad but in fact they wanted to pass this story that manaf and went in there to try to establish the collusion he took that information and never said well that's interesting but show me the video of man for going in the see in london they were doing embassies ring to it c.c.t.v.

cameras the entire city of london is and where is manifest going in and out with the large hang on you're never challenge and this is the problem in europe don't challenge let me go to patrick last thirty seconds compare jim acosta in julian assange thirty seconds big task go ahead. that's a difficult one peter in one sense i don't know look the point is and what i pointed out earlier last couple weeks ago is that you know that the media the press spent days crying over jim acosta when in fact the most important person in the field of journalism who is under threat is julius on in the in the basement the ecuadorian embassy because he represents a pillar of western post enlightenment democratic society which is of the right to publish to publish and be damned to have that right ok it is essential and we have still we finish on that very excellent point thank you very much that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks to my guests in washington and in plymouth and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c.

you next time and remember. in fact a recent poll of gallup poll shows fifty seven percent of americans want a more cooperative relationship with russia so there's a disconnect that a smart politician democrat would understand the needs to be seen because there's not a lot of hunger appetite for this kind of any russian politics is being fanned by a media political establishment.

when i almost choked something seemed wrong but old rules just don't all. get to shape out disdain becomes educated and in gain from it equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. when the lawmakers manufactured and sentenced him to public wealth. when the ruling closest to protect themselves. with the financial merry go round and me the woman was told. to ignore middle of the room signals. to leave the room getting real news is

really. new to course tony and emma. i'm a little but i think it's ended up by one news we're buddies. did both lot on. one of them one night he should have anissa. put them down i don't want or i can't listen to me as a nation under that name of community yeah i am question to keep it to him that he had a chicken dad. a he made a move out of all the money that young enough i don't have before i don't mess with

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