time after time as you know what you're a special edition of going underground coming up in the show by of zero question the crown prince n.b.s. ordered the killing monitor detailing exactly what was happening planned in france if he was in front of a jury you would be convicted in thirty minutes but did saudi crown prince mohammed bin someone who has been bombing yemen this week with u.k. weapons really alter the killing of a washington post journalist we have an interview with revelations that appeared to contradict what u.s. senators heard at a closed door briefing by cia director will we speak to the man who was asama bin

laden's chemical weapons expert then allegedly turned up my six by plus we hear about his recruitment and the origins of the war on terror and defacto british backing of islamist from yugoslavia to afghanistan to iraq to syria well with me now is a man who was allegedly one of the most senior members of some of bin laden's al qaeda a participant a jihad since the age of fifteen he turns you and i six in nine hundred ninety eight after the u.s. embassy bombings in nairobi where he continued to be part of al qaeda as an intelligence operative his new book about his time as both an ally of as i would love and as a spy for the british government is called nine lives my time is m i six top spy inside al qaeda is available now and the new film of blood that he advised on is released on d.v.d. on monday we've contacted and i six about the content of this interview but they did not get back to us in time for comment indian joins me now amun welcome to going underground aymond you got under so many different names but do you feel if you live right now before you get on to the book right. you know even though we're

between that way for if they're in their way six to release six did you fear for your life i mean because there. are a few years to live a coward and one could say throughout the book it's the enemy is communism because the soviet. socialist party is obviously in yugoslavia i'll get to the philippines in a bit in. the end it was the end we called it was even after the fall of the berlin wall i mean it was more or less communism and to some extent you know some national you know some in the movements of nationalism but the bosnian conflict was the moment in which the enemy changed no longer socialism or communism it became the west in a because i remember when khalid shaikh mohammed who was the architect of nine eleven when he came to bosnia at the end of the war he came there because he believed the war in bosnia change the mindset of the jihad is that it was the moment in which the jihad and the west started to see each other as enemies no

longer as potential allies and that's why he came there to recruit because he thought the bosnian war graduated many talented leaders who would become the leaders of al qaida and the future in fact khalid shaikh mohammed met his left hand and future right hand man there have been achieved who was he was with us in the bosnian. brigade yeah i mean in fact many of the leaders you know from the bosnian jihad you know al qaida and yemen were led by two former yeah i was going to say it is because again when it was about destroying coalminers or in yemen told you exactly actually you know many of the yemenis who came to fight the in the bosnian jihad they were before that fighting against the southern separatists who were you know well in a marxist in yemen so they were a graduate of that battle against communism and then they came to bosnia in order to liberate people from the shackles of communism as they see it because they saw the subs are still remnants of the. in

a communist structure have you been back to bosnia because you mentioned in the book that hundreds of fighters joined isis. and u.k. backed rebels to fight the syrian government the bosnian jihads created the infrastructure you know the environment the incubator environment for. jihad to spread within certain bosnian communities especially in central bosnia the area between all the way it is a bit of it that area when you met bin laden he was intent on destroying communism in yemen. does that surprise you or was that came up as a boy why communism in yemen was so important while the idea was that the yemen is an important battleground for all that they believe because they believe in prophecies after all basically they are supposed to people and so be believe in the prophecies and that all of them and as well as iraq and syria and you know in the battles yet to come within the middle east the epic battles that will basically pave the way for the kayleigh for the establishment of

a muslim. in the middle east so you know communism and out of nationalism. v. blood and want to bring down why because basically they were opposing you know they were the opposing forces of islam islam so back there while they backed him in the one thousand nine hundred ninety two but then after that that's going to basically when he went to sudan this is where really the divorce happened between saudi arabia and the cia one hand and blood on the other because he started to threaten egypt and egypt was an american backed. government and so that was a no no it was a very complicated situation and he got himself involved in that and that's why you know the americans were trying to hunt him down they couldn't he went to afghanistan once he arrived in afghanistan his desire for revenge against america took over any other consideration but then this is true repeating itself when britain are exporting war planes and everything else to the girl issue to use only

when. he would in the us mainstream media saying the u.s. is going to abridging with al qaeda a liberal in yemen against the hooty community that well not necessarily tell you why because basically from the beginning this hour of the markets in particular in the u.s. forces have been in a have been instrumental in driving al qaida from their. ports especially in. these ports we have taken over by iraqi forces and driving the away from them and in fact there are reports of collaboration you don't know i don't know i just thought i had surely is the one who collaborated with the car there to take over. you see yemen really is like a den of snakes in fact a lot of himself when he said that the ruling yemen for thirty years is like mastering the art of dancing on the heads of snakes but he was paid by the american government exactly what he was b. why he was being paid billions by the american government to convert

a car that secretly whoever whoever he used to us from uk either he used to release an order basically to continue the cycle because the more applied the is active in yemen the more money he used to get from the americans how did britain backing the people that you've been fighting was your blood from afghanistan you just love it i mean it's difficult because because you have to in tangled the web of history here so there were backing them in afghanistan during the one nine hundred eighty s. you know in the fight against obvious and the communists in bosnia it was a bit different because basically the brigade was quite clever in the sense that they embed themselves within the bosnian armed forces so they were not a separate entity and there was a responsibility of course but you know by the european union at the time to support the bosnian government you know while it was a bit of a child and. his administration over and over again well it was against

a subs within. itself. so. however and then the of course there was the fall of the soviet union that was the chechen war so there was not so much backing them there was a turning of a blind eye to what the chechens where up to in terms of the war against russia in fact there were so much fund raising and recruitment for the chechen jihad this from within. the u.k. at the time and other european countries like france and germany you found a very easy to forgive a way six when you began with agent that you knew the britain had been supporting obviously forces against people in yemen but the forces that would metamorphose into al-qaeda because every one of these things you just religion has been supported or is yugoslavia your major government was supporting those who uses. each term some would say juries away in syria well if we're able if you look at the trajectory all the way until one thousand nine hundred eight the trajectory

basically was that. these jihad just forces are useful in some theaters like bosnia or chechnya and other places but there was a realisation that they are becoming a threat especially in february of one thousand nine hundred eight when osama bin laden declared his. national or international front against what he called it zionism and the crusader forces so it was the east africa bombing in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight that was a wake up call to the u.k. government the u.s. government the french government the german government because they realize that they have now the jihad does have turned completely against them and i'm surprised i don't know it was appropriate for me for you as well there overwhelming with. i mean it took all for them to figure out yes it took that long for them because because actually when i after this off a couple means when i defected and i started working for both my father and my six

i was extremely surprised at how small counterterrorism within both organizations was i mean both departments were really small because y m i five was focusing mostly on the ira counterintelligence and country spent a while in my six was focusing of course basically on the fall of the soviet union the nuclear proliferation. you know looking you know basically what's happening within the middle east and the middle east peace process but for the counterterrorism applied there was just basically a small matter but then east africa and the attacks against u.s. embassies there and the realisation of the clyde that became the monster. no that was actually you know nonetheless never said by them in the past but now basically they came back to haunt them. that realisation meant suddenly a lot of resources where to pull together in order to counter the threat and i well i remember when our arrived here i was so surprised i used to call the city of london you know the capital of english done this is basically how it was everywhere

in london i would see who i met before in bosnia or the philippines or afghanistan what were they doing here they were doing they were here because it was so easy for them to operate they will never want good say because they were being funded by the british government and you are breaking chemical weapons with them and these kinds of experiments. would end up sort of convoluted way in the u.s. presidential commission will work on the weapons of mass destruction pollution to the who just take us through the well. you know when i joined the kind in one thousand and seven. they realized that apart from the fact that i have some you know understanding of religion and theology i mean and they said ok fine but we have quite a few people in that regard and in that department they can cover but the question is that you haven't up to today for math and chemistry and that basically could be useful another way and so they sent me to a small lab in

a remote area in afghanistan near the general about where it was just devoted entirely for explosives chemical weapons biological weapons and poisons so that was what i was stationed most of the time in ninety seven because w m d of course became the cause of britain to fight for iraq but you. told you that iraq would be a good thing the west's invasion of iraq would be a good thing for what was actually was his deputy i'll have some mostly in november one thousand nine hundred ninety was talking about the fact that there is an american think tank called the project for the new american century. hey brandish that letter they wrote to president bill clinton and that it was translated into arabic and that letter which was sent to bill clinton in the middle of one thousand nine hundred eight you know so fifteen months or sixteen months earlier. it was

urging him to invade iraq and to make it a beacon for democracy and to establish american hegemony. in syria in exactly that on way. so basically that like it was signed by eighteen people including dick cheney you know paul wolf. you know can believe that eyes jeb bush not george bush but jeb bush will get is going to me in a moment yeah i'm and you know quite a few of those who were all late would become the architects of the iraq war and the bush administration so when they were in the opposition when they were just a think tank they put that letter and i'll have them mostly beloved is that pretty seized on it seized on it and he said that you know you know that you know the american administration. would not do this unless if there was an event on the magnitude of pearl harbor that's what was one of the american columnist applied to this letter so he said we should give them up. because then they can invade

afghanistan that kind of a that off of that kind of somalia and elsewhere that's exactly where we want them to be because we need the bulldozer in a we don't own a bulldozer but they ought to build those that we need to provoke the bulldozer owner to come in and to smash the old structure out of nationalism communism whatever you want to call it socialism they must smash it in order for us to build an islamic structure. so that was their mentality the provocation of america as a super power to come and do their dirty work for them. thank you all for a mundane including revelations about the death of jamal khashoggi after the break . never before trade war there's currency war plays a trade war war and the current you are going on already with the china artificially to get their exports to the u.s.

in a way to build their economy and then the u.s. it worker was losing their job but they were paying a lot for chinese made stuff and so there was a symbiotic relationship going on so if the question is who's going to be twenty first century empire and who's going to lose if it's going to be the u.s. or china my thought is going to be a coterminous and that both the u.s. and china are going to fall apart. welcome back i'm still with. you know when you come to be recruited by the intelligence agencies here i mean we you surprise you you talk about when it was senior in my five going to turf issues meeting you and then my six agent surprised that they could trust you so easily seemingly well i made it easy for them to trust me because first of all they knew who i was so somehow i was on the radar so i

wasn't and i know you. would have been. that's the first thing the second thing i brought with me floppy disks which for the benefit of your millennial view would be tools to store information. so i brought with me floppy disks with the entire program on explosives chemical weapons biological weapons and point. as well as the locations of the of the camps. and you know the phone numbers bank accounts and you know details of their cells operations as well as ongoing operations and ongoing cells so i did this in order basically to say well look i mean you know i was this isn't basically appeared to be verified or was going to be able of course but of course they were able to verify it very quickly but then you have a situation where you end up supplying information via the british prime minister

tony blair of london we approved it just goes through the story ah. well. when it was on christmas nine hundred ninety nine i was coming back from afghanistan and i was already a spy for the u.k. intelligence services. and i was coming back with a letter i was destined for certain members of the jihadi community in london including a book i thought that. at the time i did the second chechen war was raging for about three months and when i called him i said i have letters for you of course basically these letters would be expertly opened by my six known photographed and then put back together again and never told of the contents of course so i have to give the give these two a book a thousand others and he said if you come tonight one of your old friends i will say dakota d. is going to die alone from tbilisi in georgia because he is the head of that or just sticks for the hardest so when i went it was late at night because it was

almost done at the time it was late at night and he dialed in as like imagine five g. hardest on a conference call it feels cope with a little bit so we were asking about you know the russian advance towards grozny and then a book i thought to us he said was it this advantageous to you it was putin who chose the time of the war and as a result his gaining advantage over you and he was adequately asked about he said what do you mean by choosing the time of the war and he said well yeah he's the one who orchestrated these apartment bombings against the. russian military officers and their families in the for their conspiracy theory that was spread the air actually exactly on because even even the jihad the said london thought these bombings actually were done by putin who just became prime minister in july of that here in order to secure his position as a strong man of the one who will instigate the war against terrorism and the

caucuses so obviously the could these arms that was shocking he said no putin didn't do which we did that. and i remember there was a stunned silence on the phone and we were looking at each other i mean and then why and he said well the units in the russian military units the members of these units they were living in these apartments we trace them to massacre was you know alleged massacres that took place and of us down in chechnya and ninety ninety five so this is a revenge for what they did and we were planning this for nineteen months and he started giving us details we're now engines resume we knew that while the russians knew that but not the u.k. france or germany or you know other people in the western alliance so i remember when i you know immediately told my hundreds of what i was there that could be said of course i was adequately is known to them as the head of the district the used to call him that i was a beta of the caucasus was

a body they used to be the facilitator will by the british intelligence who wasn't even aware that they were in there with the support of the same cleary's as. there was no question that religion was there was no question that within the quarter there was a for my six of course basically there was a dispute between the russia desk and the counter-terrorism desk so you know of course the counterterrorism desk supported my intelligence and so you know and took on this and they sickly they know they put it to tony blair that there is no certainty that it was the chechens who did it a bunch of us say if they are the ones who were responsible for. the bombings against the apartment blocks. he said this can then my six still to this day actually have possibly i don't know if it's true but insists it was put in but nonetheless the counterterrorism desk one of the arguments and tony blair in oh so that the intelligence is just indisputable is a confession there was no doubt there was a confession and as

a result tony blair change his mind about putin that he wasn't someone who was killing his own people to gain power in a cynical way actually he was a. of terrorism and that the caucasus became the den of terrorism and jihad this elitism at the time when there was a photo of blair and bush in together you're away six and. you would have all been for this except the from the top and then call dick cheney goes into proceedings you're doing all this valuable work allegedly only suspect and there's been no admission tell me how ineffective kill your career in two thousand and six after seven and a half years working on that coupled with an open mind as a young son settles in afghanistan pakistan and saudi arabia lebanon of course europe and the u.k. in particular. i decided that i wanted to go for a holiday it was the first holiday havoc and just the second day of this holiday the americans ruined it when you toss them at

a concert when you're all of that and that's exactly what happened i just received a text message from a former associate of mine and he said go on to read the time magazine website there is a spy among us so of course i was a bit taken aback and i was nervous and so i went to an internet cafe i looked at the time magazine and website and there was an article it was the main story they're talking about a book that is going to be released the week after and that book they were talking about you know america's you know policy and counterterrorism and in that book he devoted almost forty six pages to me as the so-called brilliant american spy and subtle qaida so first of all i don't think american or work for the americans whatsoever in the way sex was subsidiaries of the cia it's like you feel like you know but they are regarded as a vassal state or something but he did it in a way british intelligence very much i can tell you that they felt the vassal states. treatment there but nonetheless the leak contained

a lot of operational details about the operations i was involved in and i was the only common theme. you know between all of these different threads and different operations so of course i knew that either one they would read this and that will put two and two together and they will determine that it was me so i immediately called my handlers and i told them basically that was going to be. this travesty and so of course they did they told me to be on the first train back to london so as soon as i arrived back of course change or for as it turns change of you know on the discussion of what to do now i mean just to see how close things get you i mean you're in a chub train here in west london in history kensington being chased while one individual recognized me in two thousand and nine and he gave a chase and i was able basically to shake him off the idea what i thought he wanted to push me into a train or a bus in some point basically he was coming at me with malicious intent no you

worked with. because shoji huge amount of control over see in nato nations about the death of this close to the saudi court in istanbul what do you know about the killing when he disappeared i got a doctor with a saudi intelligence source of mine basically and i asked the question is he dead. why you know why would you kill him basically on in the consulate you know on a saudi soil and everyone saw him coming he said no we had no intention of killing him and there was no order to kill in fact it was an extraction gone wrong that's what he said and the pathologist you know who went there was his mission was to cover up the kidnap to not cover up the killing he was supposed to wipe any evidence of him being inside the consulate and to make it basically look like he disappeared or could be being kidnapped outside but they wanted to bring him back and the reason why they wanted to bring him back because not many people know this

but jamal in fact from nine hundred ninety three until two thousand and thirteen for twenty years was an asset for the saudi. and in fact it was he who in one thousand nine hundred four on behest of saudi intelligence went to see done to me just some of the luck and who he knew was since the days of afghanistan because demand was the editor of a jihad magazine in one nine hundred eighty eight in one nine hundred eighty nine when they were fighting against is obvious in the communist so he knew its own blood in the going to stand so the saudis sent him to so done to tell us some of the law than in one thousand nine hundred four come back all will be forgiven abandon those egyptian terrorists around you and you will be restored to favor but if you don't you will lose your sovereignty citizenship and you would be declared a public enemy be able knew about the meeting arguably but that could be just.

being bought of the demoralization the royal saudi court said these are the assets of the intelligence when he was for twenty years he was and i think the fact that he was out of the country in no made the sound is nervous but he assured them that he would not be publishing anything secretive but and he never did yeah it's just the last two months according to my sound intelligence source the last two months of his life were warning of the sound is so much because he started to frequent turkey he started meeting with turkish intelligence officers and also with qatari intelligence officers both where of course you know most services are because of the by the saudis as hostile that toward the sound is so much and they started asking questions and then they realized that he divorced his old wife for thirty years or more and was actually going to marry someone who was thirty five years his younger but she is in fact you know that don't say. you know turkish

military forces so it's sort of for the turkish foreign service will try and get her view of yeah and so she has actually i'm sure there on twitter dot com she is act. surely you know the foreign ministry's. chatter on oman affair she handled are among fire within the foreign ministry of turkey so of course it's gulf related it is saudi related in north for the saudis that was extremely worrying but then who trained the saudi intelligence service an extraction techniques the british well maybe the americans also don't forget that like it now but you see that some of these extracted four or five others a from now this only from in a moral code once was that limited to leave but also from china i mean that what i want to extract people who they want to extract without any problem what happened inside the embassy is that when they tried to sedate him they use a sedative gotten you know if you see a movie at some time basically someone like me but the gun and their injection goes

into the neck and someone then you know fall asleep i mean but they said that the gun malfunctioned and kept pumping in a sedative far more than what dymov or anyone basically could withstand so it was an overdose of sedative and he was struggling and that led basically to the whole thing being basically. a disaster it was an extraction gone wrong disaster i mean dean thank you that's it for the show join us on monday where we revisit u.k. secret service reception of british foreign policy with one of john paul just favorite story and could just gilding people judged by social media will be back on monday the seventieth anniversary of the united nations universal declaration of human rights founded not to impose old legations as a matter of international law by the u.s. supreme court and the president george w. bush.

the way to the united states is dangerous for most of the illegal immigrants. course it must be just as the word of sympathy i want to become lost and i want to ask some just about. many of them look for refuge in the so-called sentry sides the drifter used to share information about undocumented migrants with federal authorities the best person asked dan. mostly to morrow and they are the best and i get them in a lot of class and i want that. they have water the options to stay in the country with donald trump in the white house all over for the gravels. also be one of the who beat up to the. i said sit struggles of many couples won't. kill the chance of putting food impulse response both of you up at the pump to the bulk of the.

gutters financials while i don't buy any i've caught up with futures. things almost five. as of last summer my ex from the future trucker was kaiser. populism is such a zero point spread political allegation that it's lost almost all meaning if any politician regardless of their beliefs can be labeled a populist isn't all politics populism of some sort or another. in the headlines tonight tear gas water cut in an armored vehicles out of paris this last saturday afternoon on the fourth consecutive weekend of so-called yellow press demonstrations our correspondent was in the thick.