well control of the party populism is such a popular political base that it's almost lost its meaning isn't politics populism sort of another to discuss that i'm now a joined by at that trying to reach a politician and former vice president of the norwegian parliament it's pleasure to talk to you thank you very much for your time think you're now you were described as a political populist long before this word became trendy. what is populism for you and isn't any democratically elected politician a populist to some extent of course you have to be of popular in those to be

elected and the word populist move. as a negative you know that's was not a good politician it was a populist to me that's been an all or good to be called a populist because basically. just speaks to the average person not to the elites not so the managers and lawyers but i've rich citizens and the way that you talk about every citizen those citizens are actually very very different how do you make sure that you appeal to both let's say a worker a lawyer that takes quite a skill isn't it it's very difficult when you're on television but if you are speaking to holding speeches you meet them not together but in different groups and then i used to adopt to the people i was talking to my clothes and how it was talked on if i could swear or not and you know i adopted tried to be similar so that they should. i think he's one of them that was my message and now your brand

of politics is to the right of center well if this that's how people in your right i mean saying that the progress sponsor when i was their leader was between the conservative party and the labor party took the best from the conservative part of the markets are going to make sinking and the social consciousness of the labor party of east was a mixture in the middle well there is also a layer of anti immigrant sentiment there i think you're also quite prole nationalist if i may put it that way and when you were beginning those kind of ideas for much less accepted much less widespread than they are today why do you think the. right wing. or son for whatever you put it sentiment is getting so much more popular these days. it may gratian was not

a big issue in the seventy's it started in the eighty's and i could see that in the world a lot of the less a civil wars and conflicts where between different ethnic groups different religion different way of behaving and thinking nor it was a homogeneous society if we get a lot of immigrants from the third world we would could have conflicts in the future and therefore i warned against the immigration in the in addition it's very costly immigrants pave less tax less duties and leave receive a lot more will fare well nora from what i know is still fairly moderate when it comes to immigration i mean you cannot compare it to sweden or germany which would be a far more extreme but. i know that norway is very centered on human rights and they deal off being a force for good in the world how do you reconcile. you're an immigrant rather rick

with how the most of the norwegians see themselves as a as a country that wants to be a force for good will also innovate people see themselves politically correct but inside they are thinking differently and when you say that norway is different from sweden yes thanks to the progress party was i was a leader for twenty eight years because really went up in the opinion polls if immigrants came to many so the other political parties could not do want they did in sweden because they knew they would lose voters to the progress party now according to a recent guardian survey populist parties have more than tripled their support in europe in the last twenty years with dutch of beginning at least in one thousand nine hundred eight do you think that's the limit do you think that growing and to stablish man sometimes actually immigrant sentiment has reached its peak or is it going to become even bigger is going to grow until the political leaders or the

a stumble is meant starts to listen to the people we've just seen from the laws of iraq is because they are increasing the pressure old sacks average normal people don't believe in the climatized hysteria i don't either and they the cost of living is going up and the political leaders are not listening to the protests from the irish people they have to adopt. these policies are growing. in then that the leaders will have to listen and change their policy and who are interested in their own citizens well maybe i mean many people would argue that's already happening as populist parties are becoming more mainstream mainstream parties are also becoming more populist can you really tell one from another these days it's very difficult on his it's changing from country to country and also. some pork but his policies or a coupled with the leaders that's happened in greece with

a nod of prime minister is up and with the french national. vision of change in them that's going to change as time goes by as it happens there's a more party in norway i think that change has been most visible perhaps in the united states and in the run up to the two thousand and sixteen american elections hillary clinton famously called. don't the trumps electorate as as a basket of deplorable as and she accused him of giving them a voice as if it was a political crime do you think that western democracy until at least until now have been based on the idea that certain type of waters certain type of ideas will never be part of the discourse. it's changing and of course has changed a lot in america over dorman trump being elected president and i think a lot of the people voting for donald trump did that because they did not want

hillary clinton they did not like hillary clinton part of the establishment foreign policy hawks and that she was dangerous it was not so much his success as her failure is that what you're saying yes she did they didn't want her so they and the older alternative what became donald trump because he he was speaking to the average people he was different and people wanted something different something new not the establishment and that's happening now in countries also in europe i know you were quite supportive of triumph when he was running and soon after he was elected to your called him as you said just now a man of the people and you compared him to ronald reagan but i think ronald reagan had a very different public persona he had a talent for charming his political opponents do you think that's really one of trump's talons no it does not and he's doing mistakes on his begin his most and that is a lot of things i don't like donald trump for doing but his new book is

a fresh chance for many things and you know. he's spoken to the leader of north korea and i would add a hope he would get of the much better relationship with russian president putin as well oh well i hope we can discuss that as well but. in addition to talking to the leader of north korea he also. damaged american relationship with its traditional partners i'm not sure i would norway could be included because i think your relationship are more or less the same but when it comes to germany when it comes to the u.k. do you think he's do you think what's he's doing is really in the best interest of both america and europe yes i do so because many presidents have said that european states has to pay a larger share or there is a common defense but they haven't been to the haven't done a thing about it he's pressurizing the european members of nato to spend more money

on defense so he's just tougher negotiator the european countries have taken the friendship the united states for granted and the united states has really always be there to help us he said no you have to do something more yourself and he's thinking more of the american taxpayer. which german leaders slow like angela merkel took it for granted that the american taxpayer should behave for the defense of germany he says america first bike i say norway a norwegian population first every political leader should think about his own country first and then helping others now norway's a founding member of nato it also from what i know pays more per capita into nato as a budget than many other european nations what do you make of the recent announcements by both the german chancellor and the french president of the intention to create a european opana european friday is that a good idea no that's not

a good idea there was a. the strength oh nice to us showed she still america and if you have a splits between. america and european nato countries then your dream are doing the same mistake as force happening off of the first world war and you could build a bit of them to get the. possibility of a european conflict between their say the west and russia and i do not like that to happen i don't think that the chance of that gone things would be much higher with americans being present in europe because just just the other day i heard that that the united states is preparing to ship a naval ship to the black sea and i'm pretty sure that the russians are not going to like that no and i hope they don't they're going to do it's because nato doesn't have to be so offensive us they have been for the last let's say five eight years.

but if you had to split. one party or russia could easily be much stronger. than the european countries you know today russia knows that the superiority of the military power over us a behind and therefore the stopping of and possibilities of for doing something nasty to put it you think there is a real chance or even an intention on the part of russia to do something nasty it is seriously in the interest i hope not i hope not to talk and understand russia because. when nato got country after country which used to be in the packets you know over the soviet union in the cold war days as members of nato it is been nato advancing towards russia. former vice president are saying wrong reagan said. keep off our backyard and that was

a conflict when soviet union wanted rockets on cuba you know south america this is our backyard people well nato has came very close to russia's backyard and i think they should not have done that but don't you see a contradiction here on the one had to say that the major should be mindful off not pressing too hard into russia's backyard but on the other halves you want nature to become stronger and americans to keep their presence in not only presence but dominance and military dominance on this continent though as i don't think i think still that this logic. because. do not like that nato has taken all the members are has been part of it but i could see it if i see it from the russian point so you that they're there evolves. or the enemy adversary in nato is coming closer and closer. god understand that i don't like it

and that's of course you know you have the conflict over the ukrainian resources so yes paltrow this. whole thing really resonates so well mr haggard we have to take a very short break now but we have been back in just a few moments stay tuned. to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race off and spearing dramatic to follow good the only thing to do is east i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time time to sit down and talk.

welcome back to worlds apart but no we didn't politician. mr hudson just before the break you mentioned that the conflict in ukraine is you see that conflict as a major part of the russia struggle and from what i understand the you know we just public opinion is most appropriate crania and rather than pro russian. being here. having sympathies with ukraine being part of europe but also understanding russia sensitivities how do you how do you think that conflict could be settled because five years on i think it's got its getting from bad to worse rather than vice versa just as has

a lot of calls. the norwegian public opinion. is formed by the newspapers in norway and the television in norway and the information we get and that is until the russian and to putin cities and to trump you know the what he's doing. but i just see that the west supported both military of course but supported the coup in kiev i think that was was was wrong you should live respected and of course russia as far as i know ukraine is partly ukrainians but that's also donetsk area is a lot of russian people and people are feeling very much to a snake group and if a part of the formulation of ukraine wants to be part of russia you should have a referendum and let the people of the area decide so very much in favor of respecting the people but there was a heavy referendum of that sort in the crimea and you know that it is not accepted

in. the larger international community it's certainly not in the western world five years into that conflict do you think it may still lead to your of to a larger war because we had a major incident in the sea off as off recently with the naval alter cation between the two sides and i think the ukrainians are actively trying to draw in do you see any willingness to see any ability on the part of nature to become more present in the russian neighborhood as part of the ukrainian conflict i hope not. i think nato should keep off russia's backyard and in a conflict with the laws or less speak russian or russian speaking people should keep off and. i come to understand why we shouldn't accept that it is a short crim with a lot of people from russia on cream with

a referendum on cream with wanting to be part of russia now recent experience have respected that i'm sure many people in russia would like your word spread no regions are very influential if needed i mean you have the region in charge of nato right now why do you think that kind of rationale is not shared more widely because there are tendencies that truth to be the meaning of what is politically correct and what i am saying is not politically correct and of course you say the leader on the east of us at ten yards away from him in parliament for many many years and. old version know him well he's part of the establishment and he's her own did by generals or all saying the same saying i'm trying to think myself and. nato has come closer to and taken part of russia's backyard and you know you have to respect that cream used to be part of the soviet union there was

a naval base there but it was all the more and of the rulers are you know boris yeltsin gave cream to you lou crane when he wasn't quite sober i don't know if that's right on all that's a story i hear a lot here in norway. a couple of guests are related it to us as well but you know one of the. rationales that was guiding i think the russian decision making when it comes to crimea was that even though there were documents and treaties signed before that. against. the change of border is it russia could not bear its you. incur such a loss the loss of crimea it was hardly a get it was against the russian national interest and we see donald trump articulate inquired the same logic that he can pull out from treaties or previous

agreements because he does not consider something to be in the interest of the united states anymore isn't that an inherently dangerous logic if it's applied more broadly and yes it is. we don't like it but we have to also accept that things are changing. conventions united nations conventions things can be outdated you can't just say we are bound by that there if you g a convention from one thousand fifty one is the perfect example and. donald trump saw that american workers jobs were being moved from america to join up to vietnam to korea and other places something had to be done and he did it now we are just a few months away from the european parliamentary elections which are normally a very boring event but not anymore because chums former chief strategist steve

bannon announced his intention to kind of shore rob europe's conservative electorate nori is not part of the electoral process but i'm sure you are watching the events in your very closely what do you think of this idea of an american trying to influence political developments in europe well does all this happened. but it was not in our soap no love no but it's been there it's been there for a long time and particularly in the in the sky the live in country is in the labor party the labor prime minister in norway has also taken part to help of the social democrats in sweden and in denmark and so on or subversion but. that's a result of globalization you know that is more and more the rural and the and of course that's why you have all. well nationalism people looking more interested in what's happening in my country sighing strong donald trump america first and so therefore that's. exporting political are these from america visual steve about on

this doing he has that you also have a very strong nationalist titian you believe in borders you believe in sovereignty and don't you see a contradiction here that this conservatism is also becoming healed a little bit globally is that when you have an american trying to influence politics elsewhere i mean if you believe in borders shouldn't you stay within borders is even entirely a school shoes should been political parties are going on the internet and it's going all the things of it so basically yes you should do that but of course if you strongly believe in the ideology or course you want to try to influence. as many countries as you can and the schools it's been the conservatives or part of the conservatives who have been a little interested in the nation and that's what you can see the happened in britain israel's people we want we don't want to get orders from brussels we don't want to be paying a lot of money to brussels so that they can dish it out to all the countries now

you mentioned that for all your political career have been nonconventional. you've been populist before it became popular. the question is how far do you think it could be taken because your party has been blamed for the association with brave make the most and the taurus no matter i wonder i know that he left your party long before he committed those crimes but i wonder if in the aftermath of that tragedy you had to reconsider if not they did is that you hold on the way in which you express them. of course i've been thinking about that i have always based said. that. force weapons shall never be used of your libertarian party i'm a libertarian on fanatic supporter of the freedom of speech and i've always

maintained voltaire said. i will defend your rights. to my desk defend your right to say and meanwhile ever you do so never use weapons and that was a tragic saying vision and then the twenty second of july in twenty eleven all the people have tried to blame this on progress party we take no we have no reason for them doing that at all people that we never have spoken in those terms we have never advocated any of those ideas and to some extent those kind of that kind of blaming is also populist because you're trying to score political points off a national tragedy before this interview i was reading a brave. manifesto and he rages there are a lot about famine isn't for example among other things and if you look at his i'm bringing his relations with his mother her psychological issues you can see why he

would develop that idea of hating a feminist but his mother wasn't a feminist she was a child abuser i wonder if this same conflation is sometimes of play in your rhetoric when you blame muslims for what seems to me. is a very i'm clever immigration policy don't you think that your never blamed muslims for that so i have never done what i've said numerous times don't blame is on the refugees or other religious vote to norwegian government and the norwegian political parties are doing blame it on those political parties which have the responsibility for it never let cited or blamed it's all muslims and by the us i think. that everybody in north. way should respect the norwegian legislation the region laws than the regions. how we live in norway and also muslims and other

immigrants from all the religion must adopt to the way we live in norway but if they want to live here correct me if i'm wrong but i think i think you are on record spreading fear is about muslims suppose that conquest of a few europe and is clearly not ideological or religious reasons that are pushing people to you know seek opportunities in your of those reasons are primarily economic you would agree with that the economic leverage of the reason for them to come here yes i agree with that and that's why they want to come to get a good decent job because they can't get where they live but what they are doing is there and in norway paying much less tax they are higher unemployment rate and receivers of public welfare goods in there too costly for the norwegian country but i agree with you i've also warned that we should not have too many immigrants because of the change the system in norway and it will be

a potential conflict. criminals see in all. not been reported as a result of too much immigrants do i understand you correctly that that conflict has nothing to do with. the religion of islam per se if it were let's say the russians or the jamaicans moving to know i am as you would probably know it has to do with also the culture and the religion and the make the religion is. not like the christianity. peaceful is of war religion but come on brave it was also an adapter of. their way here understood it at all. i can take responsibility for what another person have done. now since we have talked about immigration i think for quite a few years any debate on how you structure immigration policy in europe ran the risk of being accused of things in a fall back dissing. now our leaders are more open to discuss immigration as it is

as a social phenomenon rather than an ideological idea yes it's more knowledge than it was before but it's still a lot of those that so the other political side for me who are trying to stop the debate by. shouting you're a racist you're a city is not everybody except that the immigration to norway is a challenge for our future childless economically culturally having a peaceful nation that was not accepted in the eighty's or the ninety's when the vote i was warned about what could happen i was labeled a racist immediately but that is still used to still being labeled racist. although . compared to hitler to stalin. what's your favorite among all of the all the last things you can so i know in my old age i can say if somebody is. say you're

a nazi or you racist or you communists i'll take it peacefully because they had said it before and we have to leave it there but i really appreciate your candor with us today thank you. to keep this conversation going on our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on all of the part. of. is finding this out

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little. bank a. seed of. the. last. clashes erupt in paris for a fourth consecutive weekend as protests against rising living costs continue to grip friends.