welcome to the party populism is such a popular political allegation. it's almost lost its meaning isn't politics of to listen off on someone of another to discuss that i'm now a joint by going at that trying to reach a politician former vice president of the norwegian parliament or how going to pleasure to talk to you thank you very much for a time like you are now you were described as a political populist long before this word became trendy what is populism for you and isn't any democratically elected politician a populist to some extent of course you have to be of popular in those to be elected and the word populist used as a negative you know that was not a good politician it was a populist to me that's been an all or good to be called a populist because basically. just speaks to the average person not to the elites

not through the. lawyers but to the i've rich citizen and the way that you talk about every citizen those citizens are actually very very different how do you make sure that your appeal to both let's say a worker and a lawyer that takes quite a skill isn't it it's very difficult when you're on television but if you are speaking you know holding speeches you meet them not together but in different groups and then i used to the people i was talking to my close on the whole was talked on if i could swear or not and you know i adopted troy to be similar so that they should think he's one of them. and that your brand of politics is to the right of center well if this that's how people in. the program sponsored when i was their leader was between the conservative policy and the. part of it took the best from the conservative part of the markets are going

to make sinking and the social consciousness of the labor party of east was a mixture in the middle well there is also a layer of anti immigrant sentiment there i think you're also quite prole nationalist if i may put it that way and when you were beginning those kind of ideas for much less accepted much less widespread than they are today why do you think these right wing. or center as whatever you put it sentiment is getting so much more popular these days. it may gratian was not a big issue in the seventy's it started in the eighty's and i could see that in the world a lot of the less a civil wars and conflicts where between different ethnic groups different religion different way of behaving and thinking nor it was a homogeneous society if we get

a lot of immigrants from the third world we would could have conflicts in the future and therefore i warned against the immigration in the in addition it's very costly immigrants pave less tax less tutus and leave receive a lot more will fare well no more from what i know is still fairly moderate when it comes to immigration i mean you cannot compare it to sweden or germany which would be a far more extreme but. i know that norway is very centered on human rights and their idea of being a force for good in the world how do you reconcile your anti immigrant rather rick with how the most of norwegians see themselves as a as a country that wants to be a force for good will also innovate people see themselves politically correct but inside they are thinking differently and when you say that norway is different from . thanks to the progress party was i was

a leader for twenty eight years because really went up in the opinion polls if immigrants came to many so the other political parties could not do want they did in sweden because they knew they would lose voters to the progress party now according to a recent guardian survey populist parties have more than tripled their support in europe in the last twenty years with dutch of beginning at least in one thousand nine hundred eight do you think that's the limit do you think that growing and to stablish man sometimes actually immigrant sentiment has reached its peak or is it going to become even bigger is going to grow until the political leaders or the establishment starts to listen to the people we've just in from the laws of iraq is because they are increasing the pressure old sacks average normal people don't believe in the climatized hysteria i don't either and they the cost of living is

going up and the political leaders are not listening to the protests from the irish people they have to adopt. the few populist parties are growing. in the end that the leaders will have to listen and change their policy and more interested in their own citizens well maybe i mean many people would argue that's already happening as populist parties are becoming more mainstream mainstream parties are also becoming more populist can you really tell one from another these days it's very difficult on his it's changing from country to country and also. some pork but his policies are a coupled with the leaders that's happened in greece with a nod of prime minister is up and with the french national. vision of change in them that's going to change as time goes by as it happens or there's a more party in norway i think that change has been most visible perhaps in in the

united states and in the run up to the two thousand and sixteen american elections hillary clinton famously called. don't the trumps electorate as as a basket of deplorable as and she accused him of giving them a voice as if it was a political crime do you think that western democracy until at least until now have been based on the idea that certain type of borders certain type of ideas will never be part of the discourse. it's changing and of course has changed a lot in america over dong trump being elected president and i think a lot of the people voting for donald trump did that because they did not want hillary clinton they did not like hillary clinton part of the establishment foreign policy hawks and the she was dangerous it was not so much his success as her failure is that what you're saying yes she did they didn't want her so they and the older alternative what became donald trump because he he was speaking to the

average people he was different and people wanted something different something new not the establishment and that's. you know in the countries also in europe i know you were quite supportive of trump when he was running and soon after he was elected the you called him as you said just now a man of the people and you compared him to ronald reagan but i think ronald reagan had a very different public persona he had a talent for charming his political opponents do you think that's really one of trump's talons no does not and he's doing mistakes on his begin his most and that is a lot of things i don't like donald trump for doing but his new book is a fresh chance for many things and you know. he's spoken to the leader of north korea and i would have hoped he would get of the much better relationship with russian president putin as well oh well i hope we can discuss that as well but. in

addition to talking to the leader of north korea he also. damaged american relationship with its traditional partners i'm not sure i would norway could be included because i think your relationship are more or less the same but when it comes to germany when it comes to the u.k. do you think he's do you think what he's doing is really in the best interest of both america and europe yes i do so because many presidents have said that the european states has to pay a larger share or there is a common defense but they have invented the haven't done a thing about it he's pressurizing the european members of nato to spend more money on defense so he's just tougher negotiator. the european countries have taken the friendship the united states for granted and the united states is really always be there to help us he said no you have to do something more yourself and

he's thinking more or the american taxpayer. which german leaders law would like angela merkel took it for granted that the american taxpayers should pay for the defense of germany he says america first bike i say norway a norwegian population first every political leader should think about his own country first and then helping others now norway's a founding member of nato it also from what i know pays more per capita into neda's budget than many other european nations what do you make of the recent announcements by both the german chancellor and the french president of the intention to create a european opana european friday is that a good idea no that's not a good or is a fly on the. strings oh no she's still america and if you have a splits between. america and european nato countries then

your drawer doing the same mistake as force happening off of the first world war. you could build a bridge then to get the possibility of a european conflict between the say the the west and russia and i do not like that to happen i don't think that the chance of that gone things would be much higher with americans being present in europe because just just the other day i heard that the united states is preparing to ship a naval ship to the black sea and i'm pretty sure that the russians are not going to like that no and i hope they don't they're going to do it's because nato doesn't have to be so offensive us they have been for the last let's say five or eight years. but if you had to split them. one party or russia could easily be much stronger. than the european countries you know today russia knows that the superiority of the military power over us

a behind and therefore the stopping of and possibilities of for doing something nasty to put it a you think there is a real chance or even an intention on the part of russia to do something nasty to it so here again they were just i hope not i hope not but i can understand russia because when nato got country after country which used to be in the cold packs you know over the soviet union in the cold war days as members of nato it's been nato advancing towards russia. former president i think ronald reagan said. keep off our backyard and that was a conflict when soviet union wanted rockets on cuba you know south america this is our backyard people well nato has came very close to russia's backyard and i think they should not have done that but don't you see

a contradiction here on the one had to say that the major should be mindful off not pressing too hard into russia's backyard but on the other hand you want nature to become stronger and americans to keep their presence in not only presence but dominance and military dominance on this continent though as i don't think i think still that this logic. because. do not like that nato has taken all the members are has been part of it but i could see it if i see it from the russian point so you that there there is. no the enemy advisor in nato is coming closer and closer. i got to understand that they don't like it. you have the conflict over the ukraine resizes see yes paul so they see. it happening with them and they so well i must have to take a very short break now but back in just a few moments stay tuned. i've

been saying the numbers mean something they matter the u.s. has over one trillion dollars in debt more than ten like color orange happy each day. eighty five percent of global wealth he longs to be rich eight point six percent market saw a thirty percent rise last year some with four hundred to five hundred trade per second per second and bitcoin rose to twenty thousand dollars. china is building a two point one billion dollar

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welcome back to worlds apart but no we just politician going to mr hanken just before the break you mentioned the conflict in ukraine is you see that conflict as a major part of the nato russia struggle and from what i understand the in the region public opinion is most appropriate crania and rather than pro russian. be here. having sympathy with ukraine being part of europe but also understanding of russia sensitivities how do you how do you think that conflict could be settled because five years on i think it's got it's getting from bad to worse rather than vice versa just as a person who calls. the norwegian public opinion. it is formed by the newspapers in norway and the television in norway and the information we get on that is a russian and to putin cities and to trump you know the what he's doing.

but i just see that the west supported not military of course but supported the coup in kiev i think that was wrong you should live respected and of course russia as far as i know ukraine is partly ukrainians but there's also donetsk area is a lot of russian people and people are feeling very much to a snake group and if a part of the formulation of ukraine wants to be part of russia you should have a referendum and that the people of the area decide so very much in favor of respecting the people but there was a heavy referendum of that sort in the crimea and you know that it is not accepted in. the larger international community it's certainly not in the western world five years into that conflict do you think it may still lead to your of to a larger war because we had a major incident in the sea off as off recently with the naval are in that in the

two sides and i think the ukrainians are actively trying to draw in do you see any willingness do you see any ability on the part of nato to become more present in the russian neighborhood as part of the ukrainian conflict i hope not. i think nato should keep off russia's backyard and in a conflict with the laws or let's say they speak russian or russian speaking peoples be should keep off and then i come to understand why we shouldn't accept that it is a show to crim with a lot of people from russia on cream with a referendum on cream with wanting to be part of russia now recent experience have respected that i'm sure many people in russia what like your word spread no we didn't have very influential it made i mean you have the region in charge of nato right now why do you think that kind of rationale is not shared more widely because

there are tendencies that truth to be the meaning of what is politically correct and what i am saying is not politically correct and of course you say their leader on a stove. ten yards away from him in parliament for many many years and. version i know him well. he's part of resistance mentor and he's her own did by generals or saying the same thing i'm trying to think myself and. nato has come closer to and taken part of russia's backyard and you know you have to respect that cream used to be part of the soviet union there was a naval base there but it was all the more and of the rumors are you know boris yeltsin you gave cream to you lou crane when he wasn't quite sober i don't know if that's right on all that's a story i hear

a lot here in norway. a couple of guests are related it to us as well but you know one of the. rationales that was guiding i think the russian decision making when it comes to crimea was that even though there were documents and treaties signed before that. against. the change of borders it russia could not bear its you. incur such a loss the loss of crimea it was hardly it was against the russian national interest and we we see donald trump articulating quide the same logic that he can pull out from treaties or previous agreements because he does not consider something to be in the interest of the united states anymore isn't that an inherently dangerous logic if it's applied more broadly and yes it is. we don't like it but we have to also accept that things are

changing. conventions united nation conventions things can be outdated you can't just say we are bound by that there if you g a convention from one thousand fifty one is the perfect example and. donald trump saw that american workers jobs were being moved from america to china to vietnam to korea and other places something had to be done and he did it now we are just a few months away from the european parliamentary elections which are normally a very boring event but not anymore because chums former chief strategist steve bannon announced his intention to kind of shore up the europe's conservative electorate nori is not part of the electoral process but i'm sure you have watching the events and you're very closely what do you think of this idea of an american trying to influence political developments in europe well does all this happened.

but it was not in our soap and no live know of but it's been there it's been there for a long time and particularly in the in the sky the live in country is in the labor party the labor prime minister in norway has also taken part to help the social democrats in sweden in denmark and so on or subversion but. that's a result of globalisation you know that is more and more the rural and the and of course that's why you have all. well nationalism people who can more interested in what's happening in my country science to donald trump of america first and so therefore that's. exporting political are these from america visual to you about on this doing he has you also have a very strong nationalist you believe in borders you believe in sovereignty and don't you see a contradiction here that this conservatism is also becoming healed a little bit globally is that when you have an american trying to influence politics elsewhere i mean if you believe in borders shouldn't you stay within the

borders even in toa school shoes should been political parties are going on the internet and that it's going all the things of it so basically yes you should do that but of course if you strongly believe the all the g eight or course you want to try to influence. as many countries as you can and the school says spin the conservatives or parts of the conservatives who have been a little interested in the nation and that's what you can see that happened in britain israel's people we won't we don't want to get orders from brussels we don't want to be paying a lot o. money to brussels so that they can dish it out to all the countries now you mentioned that for all your political career have been nonconventional. you've been populist before it became popular. the question is how far do you think it could be taken because your party has been blamed for the association with anders

breivik the most and the taurus noways mass murder i wonder i know that he left your party long before he committed those crimes but i wonder if in the aftermath of that tragedy you had to reconsider if not they did is that you hold on the way in which you express them. of course i've been thinking about that i have always base said. that. force weapons shall never be used of your libertarian party i'm a libertarian on fanatic supporter of the freedom of speech and i've always maintained voltaire said. i will defend your rights. to my desk defend your right to say and meanwhile ever you do so never use weapons and that was a tragic scene vision and then the twenty second of july in twenty eleven all the

people have tried to blame this on progress party we take no we have no reason for them doing that at all poll that we never have spoken in those terms we have never advocated any of those ideas and to some extent those kind of that kind of blaming is also populist because you're trying to score political points off a national tragedy before this interview i was reading a brave. manifesto and he rages there a lot about famine isn't for example among other things and if you look at his i'm bringing his relations with his mother her psychological issues you can see why he would develop that idea of hating a feminist but his mother wasn't a feminist she was a child abuser i wonder if the same conflation is sometimes of play in your rhetoric when you blame muslims for what seems to me. is

a very on clever immigration policy dontcha think that your have never blamed muslims for that so i have never done what i've said numerous times don't blame is on the refugees or other religious vote to norwegian government and the norwegian political parties are doing blame it on those political parties which have the responsibility for it never let cited or blamed it's all muslims are but i think. that everybody in or. way should respect the norwegian legislation norwegian laws the norwegians. how we live in norway and also muslims and other immigrants from all the religion must adopt to the way we live in norway but if they want to live here correct me if i'm wrong but i think you are on record spreading fear as about muslims suppose it conquest of europe and it's clearly not ideological or religious reasons that are pushing people to you know seek opportunities and your of those

reasons are primarily economic you would agree with that the economic was the reason for them to come here yes i agree with that and thus far they want to come to get a good decent job which they can't get very live but what they are doing is there and in norway paying much less tax they are higher unemployment rate and receivers of public welfare goods in there too costly for the norwegian country but i agree with you i have also warned that we should not have too many immigrants because of the change the system in norway and it will be a potential conflicts. and criminals see in all the been reported as a result of too much immigrants don't understand your correctly that that conflict has nothing to do with. the religion of islam per se if it were let's say the russians or the jamaicans moving to know am as you want probably know it has to do

with also the culture and the religion and the make the religion is. not like the christianity. peaceful is of war religion but come on brave it was also an adapter of. their way here understood it at the will. i can take responsibility for what another person have done. now since we have talked about immigration i think for for quite a few years any debate on how you structure immigration policy in europe ran the risk of being accused of things in a fall back dissing. now our leaders are more open to discuss immigration as it is as a social phenomenon rather than an ideological idea yes it's more knowledge than it was before but it's still a lot of those on the let's say the other political side from me who are trying to stop the debate by. shouting you're a racist you're

a city is not everybody except at the immigration to norway is a challenge for our future childless economically culturally having a peaceful nation that was not accepted in the eighty's or the ninety's when the event i was warned about what could happen i was labeled a racist immediately but that is still used to still being labeled racist oh i've been labeled all the. same compared to hitler stalin. what's your favorite among all of all the last things you can so i know in my old age i can say if somebody is. say you're a nazi or you're racist or you communists i'll take it peacefully because they had said it before and we have to leave it there but i really appreciate your candor with us today thank you like to encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going on our social media pages and hope to see again same place same time here on

all the part. putting back in place a hard border. dr vision between northern ireland and andar them has economic consequences it has a lot of consequences for people particularly those who live along the border there's a lot of free movement at the moment people move back and forward there's a lot of economic activity there's a lot of social and social activity and nobody wants to see it out to stop them.

was. to. hit balls. and. not cut. the lawn. the full sweet kind of mass rioting sweeps across france as thousands of police officers backed by ahmed vehicles failed to keep a lid on the violence. our mission is to reassert our sovereignty reform.