welcome to worlds apart it's often said that the united nations is only as good as its member states allow it to be but what happens when those numbers state deliberately start to act institution itself its legacy the synergies that create pool for the whole is greater than the sum of its parts while to discuss that i'm now joined by the united nations secretary general until this secretary general first of all let me welcome you here in moscow thank you very much for your time let me start with congratulating you on the portugal's victory over. the did you

have a chance to watch the game yes i watched the game and let's be clear we won the game but we didn't play very well exactly in that way you're living me to my next question because according to that game stats americans were better across the board in terms of the possession of the ball in terms of the shots shots and targets etc but they still lost and i wonder if. you often see this kind of dynamic of the united nations when that country puts up a good game but the final score is still not in its favor is all the time not only that everywhere i mean i remember in football in the past so we sometimes have very good teams on the we would lose the games and say we won morally i think yesterday we have lost morally but. in the context of international relations what is essential for countries to be able to come together and to face the global challenges we have today the challenges the understanding that we cannot do to little ones multi let's organization. and we need multilateral governance and you need international

british picking up the biggest most influential player and the united states french just recently from the human rights council i understand that the optics of it i'm not very positive but in actual terms what kind of a fallout do you expect from that well of course i would strongly prefer they said since it is the first moment at united states which they in the human rights council i believe human rights a text is a very important element in the un human rights is one of the pillars of united nations and i hope that. so little later sooner rather than later the u.s. will be able to come back but as i said i strongly believe that in today's world we need multilateral responses they're american side they have both criticism and bias as their reasons for their walkout and the united nations security council certainly is not the only body to criticize either israel or the united states for that matter i wonder if you have any concerns at all whether that kind of pass then

could be repeated and if the united states can pull out from the united nations altogether accessible i mean let's let's be clear the united states plays a very important role in the where i sit is a founding member like the russian deflation. and of course used to be out of one or two areas that are more i would say the other thing is to be of course involved in the sensitivity of it is of the when and i believe these will go on more true believer that when one looks at united states and the russian federation those two countries in many aspects common interests sometimes they are fighting but they have common interests and they for a look at the middle east. that we have been that was mentioned. about the decision of the global middle east in this area where i'm strongly believe that the jews the of the humanity. as you say it's in the russian federation and also in

tony on the contrary well seems the jews are similar and i strongly hope the divisions that have existed will be overcome and that the two countries will be able to have very strong cooperation a lowing the international system to work there is no way in which an international system like always can work with all these corporations between the two most important super bowl let me ask specifically about the reason cited for the american walkout these allegations of bias are certainly not me i'm sure you have heard the russia china syria many other countries make fiddler claims after unfavorable votes but none of them ever walked out of the council simply because i think most of them realize that they are not limited to one single issue devaluing the council is broader do you take this american of a troll to mean that the united states at this moment of time doesn't care about anything else about israel no look. the us position as a whole has been the same the us was oh it's done it's can mean no it's going all

to gain which means that there is a balance in the american public opinion and in the american institutions the betting on the party the balance of the party that is in the. different attitudes in addition to the human rights council so i don't think we should generalize these i think this is a very specific area where we have always seen the u.s. . position in position to position in so let's hope that in the future the u.s. will come back now speaking about the nature of that criticism i know that the. alstom has just submitted airports very critical of trump's president tax overhaul claiming that it overwhelmingly benefited the wealthy and of course and inequality and i wonder if that is perhaps a little bit to personalize one thing to criticize any given country's track record and then the other thing to. bashing individual president's policies before it was

actually fully implemented we have here in the us several things you have the u.n. secretary that you have the front. namely the significance of the general assembly human rights council and then you have special reporters that act independently and at present very ports criticizing countries elan their on the most difficult issues which of course do not necessarily present the position of the un and in its entirety my position on these as always been very clear i sink it is better to do it or was taking the country into account not personalizing seeings in the un with a very strong. we need to be impartial and we need not to politicize issues to treat them based on the truce and based on the charter of the united nations that i then suggesting that certain people of within the you know one thing against your direct advice because if i if you let me to quote that report it specifically pointed out that the policies pursued over the past year seem

deliberately designed to remove basic protections for from the course it seems like a fairly targeted. shot especially set forth by special rapporteur that is independent it's it's an opinion that of course needs to be taken into account can see that but doesn't really present the position the formal position of the u.n. but. you know there's a very delicate issues because i'm sure you would agree with me that the position of the american president of president trump at this point of time his actions are crucial for the future of the organization and he is known as somebody who is very sensitive and sometimes very reactive. to the crisis and. do you think the reason for any crisis in my way of doing seems different people does things in different ways my way to do seems to do my job is not to personalize and to do seems based on impartiality and objective analysis. situations but of course people

are different to that we have and it's important when you have independent reports on these kind of issues to respect their independence that doesn't mean that we subscribe what we say but we respect the independence because if not everyone then will be manipulated does of course with completely undermine the respectability of those independents borders that are an important component of the international community but of course as i said independents are seeing the u.n. secretary it is another now let me ask you about one more issue that's a lot in the news today that you are yourself weighed in and this is the trumpet ministrations immigration policy particularly. the practice of separating children from their parents who crossed into the united states illegally mr trump has just sought to reverse that policy by his executive order and i wonder what the u.s. secretary general have really understood how this man functions so what can possibly persuade him to change his mind asking on the immigration i don't think we

should personalize things i think we need to look at the policies that this policy has existed and the big lever is about my opinion debt is not a good thing so my experience as i commission for refugees is always that's two separate families is something that's going to have very negative consequences for the people and then of course for the society in general and i'm glad that the policy will be if you first and i've seen that many other actors in the international community in the in the u.s. politics including in the third minute. express their opinion as i said let's the best way to be ective in my opinion is not to personalize is to look into sinks objectively and if you do it in a way that is impartial if you do it's you know way that is objective i think that's the best way to convince people to do the right thing well let's try to look at it impartially. policies are usually couched in moral terms but i think there is a very real. legal dilemma there. it is not good in any way to

separate children from their parents but i think it would also agree that the united states is entitled and has the right to prosecute people who cross into its territory illegally so i wonder whether the more humane way with me to put those children in jail together with their parents or perhaps to brando's parents a waiver from prosecution simply because they happen to be parents both countries of the right to have their own migration policies but to make policy is need also to respect human rights migration policies in the management of borders needs also to be protective sensitive namely respecting international refugee law i myself am against the nation of someone just because someone entered. illegally in the country you see refugees there's no other chance to escape but to cross the border that that not in a legal way so i'm not in favor of the policy of the minimization but as i said i

recognize countries have the right to define their own migration policies what is important is that they do it in respect to human rights to human dignity because migrants and also human beings that need to be can see that and respect its absolute inherent all do our best for our children but i think it i mean i don't represent fox news here but i think it is important to recognize that they are not talking about the you know serial mothers fleeing for their lives we are talking about mexican mothers and fathers who try to find a better future for their kids for their living vibrant developing country so. i'm portuguese. in the sixty's. one million five hundred thousand portuguese left the country at the time walking into floods. and they were basically moving because of poverty and basically because they wanted a better life no it doesn't mean. i think everybody should do it but i have

a lot of respect for people that. in the case of the me trainee and put their lives at risk crossing the mediterranean with e.s.p. patient to provide for their children a better life than the one they could have so again i am totally against smuggling people but i have a deep respect for the people that try to do something to come out of. there is more people killed in these countries by the different gangs that will put it in the syrian war so we are in situations that are sometimes desperate which means that in these flows of people you have people that fleet only because of economic reasons but we have also people that have been victims of persecution so again. of the right to be found their policies countries have the right to send

back migrants but all that needs to be that in respect for the basic human rights and for the dignity of people now migration is obviously a very contentious issue not only in the united states but also in europe which used to be as you just pointed out more welcoming towards migrants and let me tell you something about my question my mother is ninety four years old is not a very serious you know my mother is ninety four years old i visit my mother when i go back to portugal every month and she has always one person taking care of twenty four hours by twenty four hours independently of the family and i've never seen a portuguese taking care of my buddy. and in most of the countries you have the indexes of one point two one point three one point four make addition is also necessary what is this what is needed in my opinion is to recognize the need and then to organize it with interest to avoid these illegal migration to organize migration to create opportunities for illegal migration taking into account deaves of states and the answers of people we need to look at migration is

a normal scene in which states need to have the responsibility toward denies them properly instead of leaving to these desperate situation to to flee because there is nothing that is not in place do a lot for normal flows that are taking into account the needs of countries of origin and the needs of countries of this nation secretary-general i had a chance to interview i think it was four years ago when you were at your high commissioner for refugees and you said pretty much the same thing that migration has to be managed and balanced in the four years that have to do you think the countries have learned how to do it in a balanced way that and that is the problem we have today i think i was right four years ago and i'm still right and the fact that this is not being seen. is creating the chaotic situation that we see in many parts of the world which by gratian became the issue the issue in many electoral campaigns and because of that you see populists country skin of populist part of these movements and others are gaining

ground in many countries if regulation we manage properly in respect for the answer of the countries but also the interests of the people i see these would not be the issue that is driving the politics in so many countries now one of the reasons why are. increasing and we're now having record numbers of more than sixty eight million people being displaced globally one reason those are displaced by conflict or by conflict and ceteris and played that number of those violent conflicts is now the highest in thirty areas the number of people killed in those conflicts has risen ten fold since two thousand and five. usat makes conflict prevention and mediation all the more important and i would think that the united nations is the most natural of beni of for that why is it not more successful in mediating all this trying to live normally when we are successful nobody notices but i'll just give you an exam they really mean that the danger as an example there was an actual election in liberia and the election liberia was contested as you know when there

was a problem where the results would be recognized or not i've sent to president bush one of our members of our level panel of mediation that's was there in the day talking to the two candidates to make sure that they would accept the results and that there would not be a disturbance as we have seen in many other parts of the if there was a problem to go to the courts and whatever we are now doing the same in a mediation to go the african union and. we have done the same in. this critically in sierra leone in which means there are lots of the t.v. we i mean the a to get the present moment doing our best to avoid a dramatic battle for the city of a day to recognize that the family layering know what is difficult and the reason is very simple. as the world became less clear i remember the cold war i remember a uni polar world now the world is kind of chaotic it's moving hopefully into a multi-polar world and i'm a strong defender of the idea that the world should be organized in

a multi-polar way but today we have a chaotic world in predictability impunity is the name of the game you see lots of victims i mean how many armies are there now fighting inside syria for example it's very difficult to mediate in these circumstances but. i wonder is and more to make prevention. but i already have priorities to evidencing to address root cause of conflict to create the conditions for communities not to create the level of tension that leads them to conflict but you are absolutely right we are far from being so. because these well know use of the sequel to all the complex worlds where we have a multiplicity effect in the multiplicity of spoilers creating a vulcan so many ideas with the enormous suffering of the people well secretary general let us take a very short break now we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned.

we're continuing our special episode here in the new year celebrating not only twenty nineteen but ten years of kaiser reports at some point in twenty nineteen i'm not sure exactly when that is but we'll keep you posted. most people think just stand out in this business you need to be the first one on top of the story or the person with the loudest voice of the biggest read. truth to stand down the news business is just the dance the right questions and demand the right answer. questions.

welcome back to worlds apart with the secretary general antonio t.r.s. the secretary general it's been about the year and a half since he took this position from the very beginning you were faced with this challenge of diminishing american presence both in financial terms and some would say moral terms and i assume that led you to rely more on other actors on other players has it worked out did other have other players that the bag game. in the light of american. diminishing. strong support of the so the multipolar world so independently of what to do united states starts i think we need to be able to promote circumstances in which a multiplicity of victims as more and more relevant. is that you see more

and more countries being active in the context of united nations and that is very much welcome from the easy better than the of the position of united nations the united states i mean fortunately into a lot of united states of english and to the key financial commitments of the maintain their position that as i said as you said some areas that have been put in all areas where the u.s. has left but in addition to the central aspects the u.s. has meant age but independently of that it's important to have a multi p.c.t. effect and it is that equilibrium that's a loss for us to be more impartial and body sectors given how important the united states still is both to their funding and the running of i'm sure as secretary general you're had to run through several contingency plans i wonder in your planning. whether you see this change posture are of the united states as something temporary that may change to or let's say six years down the line or is it

a permanent change i think it's important to recognize first of all that we have been able to maintain with the us a working relationship the best of the nikki haley has been extremely constructive in addressing the difficulties that we face are real and if the latest statement. sounds talking about three nations michael are talking about solutions with the secretariat and the solution of the problems of the of course you're right there's of their own political positions on many issues i'm not talking about that talk about the constructive relationship with the secretary it i think we have managed to have a constructive relationship and we want to keep it but as i said we we need to have a wolves and the united nations in which many actors the act together creating an environment of impartiality and equilibrium where the world or the united nations or whatever only dependent on one or two countries is not a good thing well i know you have long argued against the u.s. as disengagement from global affairs and i wonder if disengagement is the right

word because from my point of view it's not that the trumpet ministration is not engaging i think it is engaging in a very unorthodox ways for example take north korea we've just witnessed the first ever historic meeting between the two halves of state but it came after you know essentially to fearing on the brink of a war if you are very seasoned diplomat what do you think about this kind of approach to diplomacy well let's be honest. what's going to be one of the most important success stories in the calm but it's. conflict situation soul we can criticize as a when we can criticize but i must say that the recent summit that took place in singapore is a remarkable achievement and i congratulate to tell me that's that had the courage to do it in circumstances that were complex of course there were lots of. episodes before but even during these episodes i remember very well the i. of the six

countries i thought all of us you know that is the six party talks with the end of the six i've since my under secretary general on political affairs of the time jeffrey feltman to pyongyang exactly with you object is to try to prepare the conditions for this kind of the a lot to be possible which means that if given at the heat of the conflict it was possible with the agreement of all for the wind to play a role trying to create the conditions to bring people together that's all well i don't know if hero heard that but mr trump also suggested that if you can apply this kind of personal diplomacy to russia for example ask president putin to get out of syria or ukraine and i don't know about here i would be a little bit nervous about where that conversation can leave and i want to ask you what do you actually think about the current state of the u.s. russian relations given their presence very massive presence have made. their own threat is the president putin recently and i said to both the same namely in relation to the situation with all the movies in the in syria my belief that i have

said it's already dead to the interests of russia and united states in the middle east. and that's in my opinion it's extremely important for the future of the middle east that the two countries come together and have a common strategy and that seems to i mean it is always easy and i understand that from the point of view of the me that it's much better if you have big fights but from the point of view of the world it's very important that countries are able to come together to overcome their divisions and to understand that there are common interests especially in these world where terrorism became so dangerous that common interests are more important than the differences that he said that russian and american common interest in syria overlap somehow and there are grave doubts and grave concerns and they said that the united states may be moving towards creating some sort of partition in syria. i'm sure you heard john bolton the and national security adviser to. mr trump advocating the creation of the so-called sunni which with comprise certain parts of syria and iraq what do you think about this idea

even if it has a chance to bring a case that have you had the opportunity to talk both with the americans and russians on this issue and one seeing that i believe is absolutely essential is to preserve the territorial integrity of syria and other countries in the region to to try not to do some kind of new psych speak will in my opinion be as we side move now there are certain issues that are absolutely central to the legacy one of them is the palestinian territories it was the united nations after all which ratified the partition of the palestine which allowed for the creation of israel alongside an arab state the promise that was never granted and i think that is now actively sabotage do you think the palestinians still have a reasonable hope of seeing their own state and when it be more moral more honest to tell them you guys go and build your life somewhere else no i don't think it does if that is acceptable i am

a strong supporter of the two state solution i don't think that is the thing it's real is i don't see that there is a plan b. i think steps to abandon it is not realistic because to abandon it was to condemn death territory to a kind of confrontation in which the consequences would be sensitive that a state happened look at what happened recently in gaza let's not make sure let's make sure that this doesn't this does this become the situation in the whole area the two state solution might still be possible if we overcome the present divisions to abandon that idea in my opinion is a huge risk and i don't seeing that. we can conceive that the two state solution should be about the american administration they aren't american mr is serious about their to state solution i am not sure about anybody i'm sure about what i believe. i am a strong believer that the two state solution is essential because a one state solution would mean what would mean that everybody would have the same

status for been in existence for. all i don't sync is possible to be maintained never an easy time no nothing is eternal in the world and i believe all and all is not to maintain such a spoiled rich people suffer and in which the risks for peace and security are there at any moment i think our role is to overcome these states and to create a stable peaceful solution where two peoples are able to leave together in respect for their own security the secretary general and we have to leave india i really appreciate your time today and i'm glad our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and. same place same time here but also part. oh.

hello my name's peter and i've been living in russia for about seven years and this is a film about just some of the crazy things i've got in the time. that's . just published or do it because. i still does not get.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. they'll spread for a single purpose. they have a superman. training very young. eight months of intensive school. rats. and they save lives.

international going to. feet own legislation passed by the democrats after they refused to stop funding for a small neither side looks like talking down off the days of the government shutdown. along isn't a morality it's not who we are as a nation i have never had so much support for border control and for frankly the wall for the barrier. awful flames donald trump and his trade war with china giant sales fall off the cliff. germany is divided as ministers the deportation for asylum told through a shocking attack.