all else carnage across the world is there really a single pulse to terrorism called and every recruit how do violent groups like al qaeda recruit and retain new members and what happens if someone decides they have to get out of the deadly game. a mundane former al qaeda operative turned one of your case top intelligence assets within the terrorist group welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us today are excited to even have to have you now you were described as a master bomb maker and w m d specialist but also a religious scholar what was your occupation with their guns ation exactly well i mean when i joined the organization in ninety ninety seven. i was more or less already i thought i need and idea basically i thought i wanted to you know give religious lessons and i was giving religious lessons to some of the recruits but also they noticed that they had been up to you and for months and chemistry and so

that's why they assigned me to a small lab somewhere and they know west of dell about than they've got a son which was working on explosives chemical weapons boys and some budgeted weapons and so that's why they sent me that basically but did you actually have to fight like take part in any field operations. well. the time basically in afghanistan the fight was against the northern alliance which was composed of a michelle massaro downed a bunny and also the just a minnow that was big fight as so they were congregating mostly in the north of kabul so i would take someone with a sions i was sent to the frontline and know basically once every three months but i wouldn't call that fighting it was mostly you know exchanging mortar you know with enemy so how hard was it for you to cross that border from a normal life into

a life which is pretty much about killing well you know it was really at the age of sixteen when i went to go to bosnia and fight the jihad there so when i was leaving aside arabia and the comfort of my life there i wasn't thinking that i was going to join a terror organization it was more like the international brigade of the spanish civil war so we were going to volunteer fight him on one side of the civil war in bosnia which is the side of the bosnian muslims against the serbs it wasn't you know the intention to go and join a terror organization is just i didn't know that the jihad in bosnia was run by. managed by members or veterans of the egyptian jemaah islamiya you know the group that was responsible and the early one nine hundred eighty s. for the assassination of president sadat in egypt he once said that that brutality

of the boston war made you question your commitment to them which i had seen cause but after bosnia you want to have ganesan and couldn't resist a ideological appeal. what was it about them that was so irresistible so to say i mean how do you go from a moment of critical doubt to punching into that pool job back. it was a toxic mix all theology politics and eschatology or basically you know the prophecies of ancient islam basically. preached to us of the time telling us that we are in of the soldiers of destiny that somehow i want to jihad is to bring about no the fifth or the fifth stage of islamic history is basically to recreate the caitiff it that's what they were telling us at the time und that to was enough of you know for me to be in

a fascinating to join because remember you know when you're out of the comes the are not exposed to other forms of opinion in and that is there isn't the opinion of the country opinion there is only that this openly and the supporting opinion and the even more supporting open in. so you point to the deadly terror attacks on u.s. embassies in ninety eight asked events that made you reconsider your decision to join al qaeda but all kind of is pretty nigh any attacks also included collateral damage why did you still decide to join it in nineteen ninety eight the attacks against the u.s. embassies and there will be in turns on you was a massive departure from what a car that was planning to do you see the first attack for a car there or a fire the affiliate was in riyadh a nine hundred ninety five against american military contractors and then of course there was the whole bar bombings although al qaida didn't do it but it was also targeting inside arabia to us dog getting u.s.

air force pilots so the dog us with a military in a sense and i thought when i joined the organization that the fight would be against the americans and the american military inside arabia that's what the law then was preaching to us at the time that the fight would be to expel the american forces out of the middle east altogether so when the attacks happened in africa it was a complete departure because it no we are killing first of all u.s. diplomats not military and killing them on in countries that has nothing to do whatsoever with the fight between us and the americans so two hundred twenty african civilians were killed that day five thousand wounded hundred fifty of them were blinded for life because of the shock mills embedded within the device so of course that was a shocking event for me it was a departure from what the guy that was doing before so he worked with new recruits for al qaeda in afghanistan where they where all the bad ones they were getting

into there were a way it's going to be violent they were aware that it's jihad after all and it's not going to be a picnic therefore they are going to commit their lives to the cause in all. but there are two and that's what i don't want to do the time in order to expel the americans out of the middle east bring about the change in the governance and create the kill if it dot what was. brought them into the fold of jihad then a fold of a card that. you know. and that was a common theme among them all. so as you've sat radicalization happens in different ways for some it's a matter of days for others years but have you ever noticed common features in this individual journeys to extract his i'm anything but unites them except the purpose . five common themes the first one is the need for redemption

many people understand that islam is a guilt based religion most of devout muslim and i feel guilty about many things but that's what islam is about and therefore basically there is a need for redemption and not try to do it in every muslim. now you know of the you know one point eight billion muslims on the very few people seek redemption in jihad that i stick with them should end in good actions and charity and being good to others but there are a few people who seek attention and jihad because jihad you know. is which preach is the short to spot the heaven. the most of them so redemption the second is empowerment people basically who feel marginalized people feel feel they are powerless in front of what they perceive to be injustice of the injustice of their governments or the injustice of the global system as a whole so empowerment is a second theme the third theme is revenge in

a people feel that since they identify with islam as their only identity if that identity is under attack or have been violated therefore they need to do something in order to avenge the you know that this on that that happened in or took place against their identities so event is that the theme also they forth theme you'll see here basically is that liberation of the in a sadist i mean there are segments of the jihad just you know mindsets you know some within the you know within the jihadist community who really are say this they came from prisons they came from violent homes they had violent upbringing and so therefore they find that indeed hard they can liberate that in a sadist to commit an act of violence that is defined against an enemy and the fifth. in a common theme is destiny prophecies eschatology the fact that they are. fulfilling the divine blueprint for this war that has taken place right now they think

basically they are fulfilling a certain set of prophecies so you because you're very well learned in islamic studies where the person who'd explain below or of their religion to records i heard that isis fighters have a really shallow understanding of islam is this true i mean do extremists need a better religious education do they all really understand the face they're fighting for. of course because the problem is we have a theological crisis right now within islam. and that is because many muslims out on the world basically have a superficial understanding of their face and also that is exploited by many preachers who have motives in a for fourteen hundred dia's into the theology of jihad always stated that jihad or the deployment of violence is the prerogative of the states now suddenly for the

past fifty years we see that it became the probative of individuals and small groups of individuals and that wasn't the case at all we were told for fourteen hundred days that suicide is for but that no exception now we see that suicide you know in the battlefield or in a war situation or entitled ism is allowed and the only allowed but you can't take others with you and suicide missions and so that's in a state of the that is a testament that we have a problem with an islamic theology that need to be fixed and we need to educate the young people about it. anyone who tells you come and join the jihad than you would say well i thought the jihad was into the pocket of the state how could i basically go against my own nation state that is why the problem we see it like no is not a battle between islam and the west it is actually a battle within islam a civil war within islam or at we can take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue to topple a mundane former al qaeda member who turning to one of the top m i six spy is

discussing his path to intelligence work state. you know world of big partisan movies lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the bats and

shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. reflect there's someone else living inside of me like controlling my body. the byproduct of that drug is the cause like severe depression. because it literally made him into a zombie it's crazy. you know and we don't have to do anything it's not our fault the sins crazy and all that for. six years traumatic next time we get rid of.

what politicians do listen to them. they put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president or injury. or somehow want to be. the two going to be cross it's like the full story in the morning can't be good good. the studios at the are using.

our back with mr aymond being a former al qaeda member who defected from the group to work with western intelligence services discussing his life as an infiltrator within al qaeda or so ayman how does a base camp of a terror group like that operate when he decides who is in charge of watch. what is the chain of command and what is to standard of the training are there former officers doing like marine type drills for everyone. well i mean if i tell you for example what a compass that belong to a car that looked like for example which operated in the mid one nine hundred ninety s. until it was bombed in one thousand nine hundred eight by the americans of the east africa bombings every day we would wake up for example. before dawn pray as you know for the prayers of course and then there is the morning parade and then there is a military training. you know there will be military training with its weapons and

warfare mountain warfare explosives and you know other. military tactics and then there would be the religious training the ideological training and then there would be the creation of activities you know sports hiking and even volleyball or football something about. so of course there would be the meals and the players in between who is in charge and of course basically the chain of command goes all the way to osama bin laden of the time but of course someone like of that the who was the military commander of a car that would decide who would be the. you know the leaders of these comes who are the trainers and the instructors most of them are veterans of the afghan jihad against the soviets and the post but there are some who came from out of military. remember we used to have people who used to be former egyptian military officer former syrian military offices. and or from kuwait even at the time who used to be

even in the bodyguards of them out of kuwait even so they would bring in their military experience and in the rich the training experience of the operatives. so are ok people records for grounds commanders getting paid like people in isis may who handles the money where does it come from well the money at the time used to come from donations also from that i'm months of blood investments and so done so generally speaking if you are looking at the car the operatives who where the money than how families most of them were getting stipends you know from a card as general command but you know some engaged in trade and that was one of the things that enabled me to later infiltrate them properly because many of the card as commandos have their own families and they wanted to expand their own trade

so they would trade in luxury food items in a like honey or a pink hemingway and salt or afghan nuts and spices and we would exported them to the middle east and europe so i was one of those who at some point help them set up some of the business up about this and that enabled me to come and go out of afghanistan more frequently and that was my cover story of the time. syllogistic logistics wise are these terror groups efficient at providing supplies information aid exciter and or are they chaotic and undisciplined yes and no. no you really hit it on the nail here when you say that they are both disciplined and chaotic jihadism is a concern and the life within in the jihad is groups in who gives you the impression that they are really disciplined and organized but the same time there is an element of chaos. and disorganization and you see it. in

a walk working in parallel with each other you see that contradiction in a coup existing so yes sometimes basically you think that it's all going smooth and sometimes no it's a no totally chaotic it depends on who is in charge at the particular place in a particular time so have you seen how the operations are planed i mean who picks to target who distributes to roles and how is there a group that scouts out of target and other that conducts state tax. well it depends on each country and each cell within a country so for example in saudi arabia it's one of the places where i monitor the working of a car in that country they would have a group that would do that economists and then there is a group that will actually put together the. group or secure the weapons

a group basically will be the one who will build the devices for the suicide vehicles and then you have the foot soldiers on the ground who would basically execute the attack. you know for example there was another. situation like for example in iraq you would have you know most of these people actually marched together so you will have the group that will pick the targets. and decide what operations they will carry out and then you have a group that would build the bombs and then you would have the group who were executed so it all depends basically on the day nomics off the theater they are operating in. ten minutes you left and then you great to spy on them for m i six are terror groups like al qaeda are fairly well penetrated by governments or worry i rare a big hit for the case by service and the fifty three months between nine hundred ninety nine and two thousand and one when i was infiltrating the minute gonna stand

during these times five spies were apprehended by a car the two were working for the do then in intelligence services and three were working for. an intelligence service and they were executed i don't know if they were truly spies or not but it shows that there were concerted efforts by many governments to try to infiltrate them and for good reason there were many jordanians there were many egyptians that where there were many algeria there were many saudis so in a many countries had stakes in trying to infiltrate them but that was about. organization and they were conducting random checks even i was subject to random check at some point i was able basically you know i was lucky actually to be able to withstand that so in a sense that paranoia. you know netted them some successes in terms of counter intelligence but because of they went effect too many many multiple stakeholders

and you know they were. and they were going to zation that there's a target for infiltration by the many different players so what was i see maybe i was i had a t. in the sense that i was in cote and that i think you know where the narrative comes in so i wonder how you pulled that off what made you believe you could pull that. well first of all you know as a spy you have to really split your own personality into two you that is the committed jihad ist that was still alive that are within me and then there is the bus and who wanted to counter everything they were doing and try and dismantle everything they were doing so you have to really become a good actor in order to fool them you have to follow your own family in order to fool them that's the first thing the second thing is you have to be useful. and by that i mean basically i've learned certain skills one of them is bomb making the

other basically was to do in a business on behalf of some of the commanders who had families to feed so they can't afford to suspect you and they know any better though if they have about you basically they brush it aside because they are dependent on you so dependence is important also the sametime of lead the skill off interpreting dreams using the koran as a member of a someone who actually memorize a koran by heart and as people who are reading the koran every day the jihad just dreams are always influenced by the koran so if i know the koran by heart i could basically if i learn some you know understand some psychology of dream interpretation then i'll be able to even gain more intelligence where they will come to me and tell me about their own dreams because it matters to them so much a superstitious people and they will tell me more about them themselves about where they come from their families their mothers their parents their siblings so that was important i'd never ask questions so i just become useful skilful

and people will come to me and volunteer information as a you know as a result. i just wonder what's it like to meet your former brothers in arms again when you went back but this time as someone who is there to help bring them down i mean he trusted this guy's you were right to commit your life to them. how now you're here working against them looking looking at them into their eyes i mean you must have had pretty strong feelings about them to be able to do it it's one of the conundrums of spying especially on large groups like these specially with the sense of camaraderie and the sense of great affection that they show to each other and of course they shown to me and i have to show back to them that he is you have to differentiate between the individual and the cause you have to separate completely between the individual you're targeting in a for information and to understand the cause they are pursuing. just because you

know you love your brother or sister that doesn't mean basically that you to liberate them if they become serial killers. you know you know the love for the person is there but the hatred for what they stand for is also there and you can actually combine both of the same time if you learn how to do it then you know you would be able to continue spying on them without raising suspicion without being seen to be hostile to them personally rather than to the cause they are pursuing what worry ever tempted to maybe say the law is there as well where you were tempted to maybe save them and bring them on the bright side well that's that's would be a suicide for me i mean basically the end of this is a way of survival instincts kick in then say no don't do it in the trying to bring them to the bright side i mean basically i mean i would end up. in a five inches shorter. if that we have to happen so no survival instinct you know will. kick in then would prevent me from trying to explain to them that well i mean

what you're doing is wrong you look at the big picture for the greater good it maybe these people need. saving but you know that the priority for me is saving those who will be the future victims and then there is this and infiltration op was and eight by a leak from the american side which could have ended your life basically with a full on publication in a press about a spy and al qaeda out there for everyone to read it and as far as i understood before that you managed to make it work quite well was it a pity to have to end it like that. through no fault of yours or was it maybe a relief that you don't have to do it anymore well. it's interesting that you mentioned relief in a yes it was a relief in a sense but of course of the beginning. it was a sense of anger and a sense of frustration that this should happen you know i was actually luckily i

was on a holiday in potus and it was the first one of the ads i think you know just americans through and it's. so basically i was in paris and then i received a text from a comrades of mine in the from a former associate telling me basically you know go on the read the time magazine the website there's a spy among us so when i went to read of course you know my heart sunk all the way to my stomach and i realize they were talking about me you know there were so many operations i was involved in you know in two thousand and five two thousand and four thousand and three and prior to that and i can see you know that many pieces of intelligence came from me and i was the only common denominator between all of these operations and intel. who's left with the miss way so of course i knew that a car that will put two and two together and say i read the article in the book that was in a promoted in that article. and that will issue there for. the

two years later actually. they did find it and worked it out. you know a legit demises or basically you know giving permission for my killing but what about now now that you're super public about it are you not afraid of al qaeda being up to you well i mean the well of the two attempts on my life before there was a book or a publication or anything. you know so it's so somehow coming out publicly you know in a way actually if it lessened then decrease the amount of death threats i'm getting so i was getting more death threats actually before the publication since then basically being quieter and for a good reason because basically being public is better for security and then being you know in hiding as far as these groups are concerned it's counter-intuitive but that's all well thank you so much for this wonderful insight and for this inch of

you it's been a great pleasure talking to a very interesting. we were talking to a mundane for world had a member who defected and worked for u.k. spy services talking about his past hot to intelligence work that's it for this edition of cell phone calls. on the sounds of.

the way from the officer. of the screen. the officer did they kind of lunge for the weapon once missed and then what happened on three swung. didn't hit him i never saw any contact with. any kind went back to where they were back here there again fifteen feet apart at this point and that's when the officer. survival guide books to a single malt liquor store and simply. be sure it's still there are you going to get it back. oh no. repatriations again we'll look at the rest of seventy or. so of the separate cars or report.

what. us media palls the pressure on donald trump alleging he suppressed details of his talked with vladimir putin publishing a complete guide to impeachment. the us ambassador to germany. after threatening local firms.