an organization expressing stakeholder opinion in syria and in the middle east and in norman we cross to joshua landis he is the director of the center of middle east audience at the university of oklahoma are i gentleman. rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you first in norman i have a very simple question but i don't think there's a simple answer trumps foreign policy is befuddling. frustrating to understand and it seems a quite fluid so what do you make of his policy as his major foreign policy advisers including the u.s. secretary of state is essentially contradicting their boss on their middle east tour go ahead joshua. well you're absolutely right and for americans it's just as confusing as it is for the rest of the world because the foreign policy. elite really has come undone and the way this processes hammered out has now been thrown

into some chaos because the president has taken charge of the syrian issue himself and then started in december fourteenth when the turks escalated they threatened to invade and were bombarding northern syria this forced an escalation beyond the sort of the top state department the national security council people and the president took a phone call to air to one and which point he said we're pulling out this was news to the foreign policy elite who wanted to stay in syria to counter iran and roll back iran so that through everything that chaos then they immediately sort of roll back or. trump statements and then outruns come on again and said we're going to leave and he's gearing up for a national campaign in two thousand and twenty in which he wants to promise the people that he's going to end these stupid wars the way he did for years you know

several years ago and and so we're at a crossroads here on the syrian policy and there is a lot of confusion you know it's about the you know it can be all nice and fine if donald trump and it's advisors want to have this sharod played out in public fine ok donald trump is a person that easily changes his mind or he says something different contradicting himself that's all nice and fine we're used to it but the region is and the turks don't know how to react to damascus government is confuse the russians or confuse the iranians confuse and lo and behold the american people finally found out who the kurds are because of all of this so it's just not the confusion in washington it's creating confusion all through the region go ahead subban london. one quick frankly i think the americans never had a policy they wanted to have every change in syria that's a. as far as they can think off anything else after that i don't think anybody knew

on the american side they have no idea about the kurdish problem they don't know the differences between the various fick could this fact is they don't know anything about the so-called isis and other islamist terrorist groups they don't know anything about the syrian free army but they feel they where they are the power that has the power it has the plane it has the voice that can make and it can threaten turkey and it actually did so a little while ago when they imposed economic problems for for turkey so the confusion is right from the outset the outset and at the outset they wanted to change the regime then they decided they want somebody else to do that and then after that they decided well it's been we can do now so let's leave it now as it is this is the i think this is how i would describe them out of come policy as far as the administration is concerned you have

a president who is unique in the united states of america where he is taking the lead into things which he doesn't know anything about it he keeps on telling lies he's the only president that the american public and the media is counting the lies he's standing he says one thing and he says another thing then you have the right wingers within the administration who know a little bit where they want to go they know that out against iranians they want to support israel they are against said i'm probably that against the russians this is how they view it so of course you have this confusion but i the end of the day i don't think the syrian issue has changed from the beginning until now i said continue to kill the people and the people want to revolt against it ok let's go to damascus m r i think you know i'm sure you read my pump a.o.s. cairo speech is one of the most bizarre things i've ever. reading my life i'm i'm not sure what region he's talking around the world but it certainly wasn't the

middle east ok and it was more for the most part about three things iran iran and iran it's really quite puzzling try to understand what that foreign policy from the white house and from the state department what direction they really want to go to really he did not address many important issues the palestinians shogi calling saudi arabia to live. the iranians to live up to the human rights standards of saudi arabia what is going on with this administration go ahead in damascus. the point of the the fact of the matter is that the united states will always be seeking more influence and more stable and strategic influence in the middle east they're currently threatened by russian expansion because of the american policy in syria which you know created the circumstances for a russian increased influence in the region. very traditional allies of the

united states very stablished allies are not only talking more to russia. they are also having all these even weaponry like in the turkish example so the in the case of iran the united states probably thinks that having iran as a sole. enemy would gather as much allies on underwear on one front along with the united states as much as possible definitely israel would be interested in any american anti iran policy in the region the saudis would the bulk of the gulf states probably apart from qatar at the moment turkey would traditionally be. in competition with iran and so on and so forth so this is not new this has been happening all along but we need to. understand that what is going on at the moment is that probably some people in the united states and definitely

a lot of people in israel are thinking this is the right time to pass it or to make some progress on what we can call perhaps the zionist project so let us push any and his project. sentiment as possible towards despair and let's make good of any alliance with some arab states against iran and turn it around into an enemy and the united states with some lobbying inside the administration would probably want that to happen but at the end of the day the main issue is that the united states feels that its influence may be dwindling that it could be its allies traditional allies maybe looking eastwards at the moment towards the likes of russia and china on that point i would definitely agree with you here joshua the issue between the united states and turkey in northern syria

visa be the kurds has not been resolved and this really fault american media and western media in general they don't look at the other actors and the other players in all of this because i don't want to really bet a lot on seeing his policy come to fruition and if he doesn't know what the u.s. is going to do once it understands where the united states or what the united states wants to do then it can act in everyone is not a man known for his patience go ahead joshua. well you're absolutely right that the kurdish problem it turns out to be a problem for everybody nobody really knows what to do with it not america not turkey not syria not iraq and and this is you know with the collapse of the syrian central state during a civil war us and in many ways handed off eastern northeastern syria to the kurds and to the wipe egypt and then america which had been helping the arab militias

against assad hoping to overthrow the regime put in a pro-american regime that would make peace with israel. this completely collapsed and so the united states was left siding with the kurds to fight isis these this very reliant sunni kayleigh full group that was trying to build this big caillat and that that caused in a sense the united states to side with allies of us if you would but now that they're withdrawing everybody is no none of the regional powers want there to be an independent or autonomy as kurdish entity with its own military and that is a very difficult problem for the united states to get out because they want to make sure that their allies don't get completely smashed in the process and ok says an embarrassing let me say well he did it because they're always going to make joshua

let me stay with you here but it i understand that the various kurdish groups are in negotiations with damascus right now to come to some kind of resolution as if and when the united states leaves go ahead joshua finish up before we go to the break that's right and this puts the united states in a very embarrassing pollution because it means that if the kurds and damascus patch up their relations form a an agreement over bringing a syrian army back end to this whole northern region which would be the best thing for the kurds it is going to bear as united states because then to fight against isis and continue the war counter terrorism or at least the united states effectively has to work with assad because the white p.g. will become part of the syrian army and and that puts the united states back at square one of reconciling with the assad regime even if it's just tasteful to them and working with it effectively and that's where the united states stands today is

yes entire revolution that it promoted and asked for the overthrow assad in a sense it's discovered that the alternative turned out to be something worse isis or a. hi there are other islamic groups the united states didn't want to deal with and you know it's back to square one ok i'm going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on syria state with our. seemed wrong. but all roads just don't call. me. yet to shape out just days after. an engagement equals a trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to

look for common ground. you know world of big part of the movie lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that made stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the bath and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks.

when they came back from iraq now i hope marijuana her was cocaine methamphetamine so anything that's altering trying to get us out. that bad mindset using the chemical that would be self medicating. i want to be drinking and drinking ino noon just killing myself by drinking alcoholics don't drink to get drunk alcoholics drink to feel normal. that's why it's this way drug addicts do what they shot while still feeling and their. star cool under which these guys are going through to it it just means to. need to be helped and not good pushed on by the v.a.'s are as drugs go and stuff they need to be helped. and they've really shouldn't be looked at like numbers they should be looked at like

people if they go to a veteran center for health issues be considered as someone who really needs attention and. welcome back to cross talk more all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing syria. ok let me go back to sabah in london i couldn't help but notice when i was asking questions of joshua landis a norman there you were where i think you were disagreeing go ahead allowed. that that's correct that's the kurdish issue i think everybody is relying on the kurdish issue as the main cause of all these confusion and this is not true the turkish the kurdish issue is a real issue for the turks but not for that medical exam not even for the syrians

the turks as far as they're concerned this is a domestic problem which they have to resolve it and america don't even understand the difference between the various kurds whether that in iraq or in syria and turkey they don't know the movement and they are willing to decide they have a designer made good dish movement some of them are good some of them are bad just as much as they were doing with the islamist movement some of them out of good muslims and some of them out of bad muslims this is not the issue the issue is the americans started to change their regime they decided not to because they can't or for whatever reason the situation is staying as it is the turks are determined they're not going to allow the kurdish problem to be an issue for the national security of turkey and they are going to use force they are going to use force even if the americans stay there the americans have to get out for a variety of reasons including money because. being safe he says he wants money he

doesn't want anything other than money he doesn't he doesn't care about politics on international middle east or anything else he wants money from the regimes from everybody else and he wants money for his services that's what these telling them are can people because he cannot offer them what the american people are expecting from him but on the syrian scene i think the situation is as is it hasn't changed the americans are going to withdraw whether they're out of slow or far storable whatever and the turks are not going to allow the kurdish movement to stop a new country as happened in the north of iraq under the watch of the americans and this is where the problem is a modest. about damascus i mean it's interesting we're saying because john bolton when he was in ankara was publicly humiliated when erda one refused to meet with him and instead to want to have the time to address the turkish parliament basically borate. bolton i think the western media coverage of this situation here

does grossly underestimate how turkey feels now you know i don't believe invading a foreign country saw a sovereign country is right is a breaking of the internet international law but it's very right the kurds matter not as some kind of. political trophy to pass around or give excuses for it does matter to the turks can you think damascus and the kurds come to an agreement where turkish aggression can be avoided go ahead in damascus i don't think the question is inevitable we need to remember of turkey isn't working alone on this they are working with russia and iran and if we go back a few months to september when they have. you know a summit in tehran between. honey they had a statement afterwards in which they said that they refuse americans changing the facts on the ground under the pretext or umbrella of fighting terrorism that these

three states would work against. this project that basically threatens the integrity and safety of the suit and unity of the syrian territory and at the same time and this is the most important point i think here it's the national security of neighboring countries and this is a public statement they are not you know the sort of commitment is taking place so would turkey coming from that analogy would turkey go alone in northern syria without a consent from russia and actually behind the scenes damascus. we don't think so but probably all these parties if we think of them now as a quartet russia iran turkey and a mosque in syria they're probably pushing the kurds to words or maneuvering in the kurds towards lowering their demands when they are talking with damascus we think

that the kurds do not think and autonomy is possible and definitely the americans don't think the and autonomy is possible in northeastern syria so probably what the americans wish out of this is to avoid a humiliating situation where the arabs over there for example would be so ingrained with american presence think about it as an occupation that they would actually start attacking u.s. soldiers and be probably the united states would want to withdraw swiftly so that they create a vacuum that would lead to conflict between those four parties iran syria and russia now that that said the safe way out of this would always be a negotiation with the central government in damascus what the kurds would come out would bring out of that because he has yet to see that but hopefully it will be good for all the parties. in every time there's a negotiation to end the conflict in syria the u.s.

seems to upset it maybe once what once it does leave it'll leave the the players on the ground because if they have real genuine interest they can resolve it joshua it's been reported that in september john bolton went to the pentagon and was asking for. a menu of ideas how to react militarily to iran for an alleged terror attack within the green line in baghdad. there's i tell you everything we need to know about john bolton in the middle east. well you know it's not only that but john bolton and. therefore he got his present job he was. he was lobbying for regime change in iraq he was talking to me reaching change in iran excuse me was he was talking to figure running groups united states and saying that he was all in favor of regime change in iran so he has a very aggressively anti iranian and which i presume is part of the reason he was

brought to the top of the pick for president trump so president trump is sitting on a very anti iranian foreign policy crowd and we say that from pompei when his speech in cairo as you you explained in your opening which was a really a level letter to saudi arabia. exactly. all the problems in the middle east on iran and this is of course a the anti obama policy in some ways but it's also it puts the united states in a very small can and it's a camp that's very divided because the gulf arabs and israel which of course america is trying to bring the two together to face off against iran they're extremely divided and we see between qatar and saudi arabia but none of the gulf arabs really trust each other they're not ready to really combine and it's a mess the middle east is a mess today and the united states doesn't really know what to do with it you know

sabra it's go back to london i mean we went when trump made his announcement the original announcement now in december of last year of withdrawing from syria it was quickly followed up by. lowering the number of troops in afghanistan after trump made his trip to iraq not going through the diplomatic procedures which obviously annoyed the iraqi government they too says he said it's time for american troops or some of them to leave here i mean we do have an exit is of one form or another and it's all of these countries want america to leave it. interesting a pompei is that we only go where we're asked to go and we leave when we're told to leave which is patently untrue but there seems to be a movement across this very large region to see a lowering of american military presence in the different countries that have different interests this seems to be

a trend and i think this is what the form of policy blob is terrified of because it's this kind of this. imperial role in the middle east is the glue that keeps the political class together if it's republican or democrat they all seem to be in lockstep on the d. u.s. should never leave once it's gone somewhere go ahead. what do you see here in britain when we were out of the empire in that region we knew how to run things that's the british not me. americans trying to do the same thing but they have absolutely no idea how to do this thing when i go to america if i tell somebody i'm from them then i have to say london england because they think it's some sort of a village in one of the wyoming state they they have they have no idea about that region now at the present moment the regimes that go in jordan in egypt and precisely in iraq are all protected by the americans and trump is

absolutely right in saying we are protecting all of you and we are keeping you there all of you this is absolutely correct america never talks about iraq he has five thousand soldiers in iraq that's tom he talks about syria he talks about afghanistan he never talks about iraq because under the pretext that he's fighting iran he's keeping the american soldiers to protect the regime in baghdad which is pro iran which is a conflict off nobody can understand this idiocy of pot. but as far as american policy america no longer has friends other than israel and even in israel they are beginning because because of trump's. every time he talks from the hip and he keeps on sending these tweets and the noise everybody even is or even getting annoyed

with it he has no friends in the middle east nobody trust him not even m.b.a.'s who has given him half a billion or have it really and dollars off investment even eat doesn't trust them anymore ok so. we're almost out of time and i want to go back to damascus amar what's really interesting again it's under reported in western media is that moving the opening up their embassies here i mean. there is a wide acceptance now in the region that the government in assad will stand and remain go ahead in damascus. yes i think a lot of people in the region and probably in the west as well we've heard for example from britain foreign secretary jeremy hunt saying the same we have to expect to be there for a while and we have to work on that and they congratulated russia for winning this fear of influence in syria and they full of this comes with some responsibility and

so on but these are a few of the arabs it's also a little bit more complicated than what it seems perhaps the likes or the access now we can we can probably talk about an axis of saudi arabia you he egypt. they took the first step they took the initiative to do a new. relationships with damascus and bring back to moscow to the from the u.s. was the first to open its embassy there the saudis are ok i couldn't. jump in here on the run out of what was interesting was the tiny thanks to my guests in london damascus and norman and thanks to our viewers for a while. ching is here darkies see you next time and remember.

he put themselves on the line. to get accepted or rejected. so when you when the president. wanted. to go in to close the two of them before three in the morning can't be good. i'm interested in the waters in the . course of. your health care executive or bank your costs like getting a gift from a fellow governor millions hundreds of millions trillions of dollars if you're not part of that cobol you are the one paying for yes and that's why there's a lot of social unrest that's the yellow vest movement in france and around the world it's the global insurrection against banker occupation is coming to america twenty nineteen so get your yellow vests and your torch and let's party all into because it's all about the.

officer. to get up off the ground serve began to. hurt them freeze on the sounds of an mit grown man mislead essentially. wish to do away from the officer. of his group. the officer did a kind of lunge for the web in one smith's and then when i haven't done three swung at concerts he didn't hit him i never saw any contact with. any kind went back to where they were so the officers back here they're going again fifteen feet apart at this point and that's when the officer pulled his gun and he returned three.

you know my point i wanted to. ask but i. think. you're so you know i lost his boss because. we don't see any of those but the best honest i don't mean any of them. so i said you know what i was you're not. you're not just i mean my most important i'm already but it was.

the lord. has been up and i must. get off on getting the rest but those were the all of. those people are going to respect i'm one of those but i want. my family feisty just but that's already yes it will be and he thought of getting out there calling you seem to mean to carry out my thought aloud. to the right two hundred into. the nose to the left four hundred and thirty two.