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hello and welcome to cross talk are all things considered i'm peter lavelle president donald trump has repeatedly said the u.s. will withdraw from syria it would seem he's the only one in his administration backing this move is trump in charge of his own foreign policy are john bolton and mike pompei oh actually running the show. cross talking to syria policy i'm joined by my guest. in london he is a lawyer and an independent political analyst as well as an expert in iraqi affairs in damascus we have amar why cough he is founder and director of an organization expressing stakeholder opinion in syria and in the middle east and in norman we cross to joshua landis he is the director of the center. middle east eddies at the

university of oklahoma are right gentlemen. rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you first in norman i have a very simple question but i don't think there's a simple answer is foreign policy is befuddling. frustrating to understand and it seems quite fluid so what do you make of his policy as his major foreign policy advisers including the us secretary of state is essentially contradicting their boss on their middle east tour go ahead joshua. well you're absolutely right and for americans it's just as confusing as it is for the rest of the world because the foreign policy. elite really has come undone and the way this this process is hammered out has now been thrown into some chaos because the president has taken charge of the syrian issue himself and then

started in december fourteenth when the turks escalated they threatened to invade and were bombarding northern syria this forced an escalation beyond the sort of the top state department the national security council people and the president took a phone call to air to one and which point he said we're pulling out this was news to the foreign policy elite who wanted to stay in syria to counter iran and roll back iran so that through everything that chaos then they immediately sort of roll back or. trump statements and then outruns come on again and said we're going to leave and he's gearing up for a national campaign in two thousand and twenty in which he wants to promise the people that he's going to end these stupid wars the way he did for years you know several years ago and and so we're at a crossroads here on the syrian policy and there is a lot of confusion you know it's about the you know it can be all nice and fine if

donald trump and its advisors want to have this sharod played out in public fine ok donald trump is a person that easily changes his mind or he says something different contradicting himself that's all nice and fine we're used to it but the region is and the turks don't know how to react to damascus government is confused the russians are confuse the iranians confuse and lo and behold the american people finally found out who the kurds are because of all of this so it's just not the confusion in washington it's creating confusion all through the region go ahead sob in london. one of quite frankly i think the americans never had a policy they wanted to have a regime change in syria that's as far as they can think off anything else after that i don't think anybody knew on the american side they have no idea about the kurdish problem they don't know the differences between the various fick kurdish

factors they don't know anything about the so-called isis and other islamist terrorist groups they don't know anything about the syrian free army but they feel they where they are the power that has the power it has the plane it has the voice that can make and it can threaten turkey and it actually did so a little while ago when they imposed economic problems for for turkey so the confusion is right from the outset the outset and at the outset they wanted to change the regime then they decided they want somebody else to do that and then after that they decided well it's been we can deny off so let's leave it now as it is this is the i think this is how i would describe them out of come policy as far as the administration is concerned you have a president who is unique in the united states of america where he is taking the lead into things which he doesn't know anything about it he keeps on telling lies

he's the only president that the american public and the media is counting the lies easterling he says one thing and he says another thing then you have the right wingers within the administration who know a little bit where they want to go they know that out against iranians they want to support israel they are against said i'm probably it out against the russians this is how they view it so of course you have this confusion but i the end of the day i don't think the syrian issue has changed from the beginning until now i said continue to kill the people and the people want to revolt against it ok let's go to them. because some are i think you know i'm sure you read mike pompei or cairo speech is one of the most bizarre things i've ever read in my life i'm i'm not sure what region he's talking around the world but it certainly wasn't the middle east ok and it was more for the most part about three things iran iran and iran

it's really quite puzzling try to understand what that foreign policy from the white house and from the state department what direction they really want to go to really he did not address many important issues the palestinians shogi calling saudi arabia to live up to the iranians to live up to the human rights standards of saudi arabia what is going on with this administration go ahead in damascus. to the point of the fact of the matter is that the united states will always be seeking more influence and more stable and strategic influence in the middle east they're currently threatened by russian expansion because of the american policy in syria which you know created the circumstances for a russian increased influence in the region. very traditional allies of the united states made established allies are not only talking more to russia. they're

also having all these even weaponry like in the turkish example so the in the case of iran the united states probably thinks that having iran as a sole. enemy would gather as much allies on underwear on one front along with the united states as much as possible definitely israel would be interested in any american anti iran policy in the region the saudis would the bulk of the gulf states probably apart from qatar at the moment turkey would traditionally be. in competition with iran and so on and so forth so this is not new this has been happening all along but we need to understand that what is going on at the moment is that probably some people in the united states and definitely a lot of people in israel are thinking this is the right time to pass it or to make

some progress on what we can call perhaps the zionist project so let us push any and his project. sentiment as possible towards despair and let's make good of any alliance with some arab states against iran and turn around into an enemy and the united states with some lobbying inside the administration would probably want that to happen but at the end of the day the main issue is that the united states feels that its influence may be dwindling that it could be its allies traditional allies maybe looking eastwards at the moment towards the likes of russia and china on that point i would definitely agree with you here joshua the issue between the united states and turkey in northern syria beads would be the kurds has not been resolved and this i really felt american media and western media in general they don't look at the other actors in the other players in all of this

because i don't want to really bet a lot on seeing his policy become super wishin and if he doesn't know what the u.s. is going to do once it understands where the united states or what the united states wants to do then it can everyone is not a man known for his patience go ahead joshua. well you're absolutely right that the kurdish problem it turns out to be a problem for everybody nobody really knows what to do with it not america not turkey not syria not iraq and and this is you know with the collapse of the syrian central state during a civil war us side in many ways handed off eastern northeastern syria to the kurds and to the wipe egypt and then america which had been helping the arab militias against a side hoping to overthrow the regime put in a pro-american regime that would make peace with israel this completely collapsed

and so the united states was left siding with the kurds to fight isis these this very reliant sunni kayla full group that was trying to build this big kayleigh which and that that caused in a sense the united states to side with allies of us if you would but now that they're withdrawing everybody is no none of the regional powers want there to be an independent or autonomy as kurdish entity with its own military and that is a very difficult problem for the united states to get out because they want to make sure that their allies don't get completely smashed in the process and ok says an embarrassing let me say when he gets there almost go to the major i should let me stay with you here but it is i understand that the various kurdish groups are in negotiations with damascus right now to come to some kind of resolution as

if and when the united states leaves go ahead joshua finish up before we go to the break right and this puts the united states in a very embarrassing pollution because it means that if the kurds and damascus patch up their relations form a an agreement over bringing a syrian army back end to this whole northern region which would be the. this thing for the kurds it is going to barracks united states because then to fight against isis and continue the war counter terrorism war in the east the united states effectively has to work with us because e y p g will become part of the syrian army and and that puts the united states back at square one of reconciling with the assad regime even if it's just tasteful to them and working with it effectively and that's where the united states stands today as u.s. entire revolution it promoted and asked for the overthrow assad in a sense it's discovered that the alternative turned out to be something worse isis

or al qaida or other islamic groups that the united states didn't want to deal with and you know it's back to square one ok i'm going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on syria state with our. country has gone into a nihilistic fever that's what i think and we've got to hit the road and get out the traveling across america by what makes america take the charlatans the genie's put the south american hero this is and we've come to a point around which alan would have done something we always are on the margins something. called the culture party. where starting last with is going to headed east into the swamp we're going into

the belly of the beast and i think i want to leave now doesn't get him oregon down on that we may be completely different but the end of this. you know world of big partisan move. and conspiracy it's time to wake up to be deeper to hit the stories that mainstream. refuses to tell more than we need to be smart we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the troops the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. going to what it. has but i.

lost his boss because. you know. so i said you know what i was you're not. you're not just i mean what i'm already but it was. i mean. if it up as well i must admit that he was i just don't get off on getting noticed but those were the. people going to one of the. this where this part of the. my family fussy i just got that already yes a whiskey and he thought of getting up there calling. welcome back to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you

we're discussing syria. ok let me go back to sabah in london i couldn't help but notice when i was asking questions of joshua landis a norman there you were where i think you were disagreeing go ahead elaborate. that that's correct that's the kurdish issue i think everybody is relying on the kurdish issue as the main cause of all these confusion and this is not true the turkish the kurdish issue is a real issue for the turks but not for that matter exile not even for the syrians the turks as far as they're concerned this is a domestic problem which they have to resolve it and america don't even understand the difference between the various kurds whether that in iraq or in syria and turkey they don't know the movement and they are willing to decide they have a designer made could dish movement some of them are good some of them are bad just

as much as they were doing with the islamist movement some of them out of good muslims and some of them out of bad muslims this is not the issue the issue is the americans started to change their regime they decided not to because they can't or for whatever reason the situation is staying as it is the turks are determined they are not going to allow the kurdish problem to be an issue for the national security of turkey and they are going to use force they are going to use force even if the americans stay there the americans have to get out for a variety of reasons including money because. being safe he he wants money he doesn't want anything other than money he doesn't he doesn't care about politics on international middle east or anything else he wants money from the regimes from everybody else and he wants money for his services that's what these telling them are can people because he cannot offer them what the american people are expecting from him but on the syrian scene i think the situation is as it is it hasn't

changed the americans are going to withdraw whether they're out of slow or far storable whatever and the turks are not going to allow the kurdish movement to stop a new country as happened in the north of iraq under the watch of the americans and this is where the problem is a modest. about damascus i mean it's interesting with the same because john bolton when he was in ankara was publicly humiliated when erda one refused to meet with him and instead of the time to address the turkish parliament to basically berate. bolton i think the western media coverage of this situation here does grossly underestimate how turkey feels now you know i don't believe invading a foreign country a sovereign country is right is a breaking of the internet international law but it's very right the kurds matter not as some kind of. political trophy to pass around or give excuses for it does

matter to the turks can you think damascus and the kurds come to an agreement where turkish aggression can be avoided go ahead in damascus i don't think the question is inevitable we need to remember of turkey isn't working alone on this they are working with russia and iran and if we go back a few months to september when they have. you know a summit in tehran between. honey they had a statement afterwards in which they said that they refuse americans changing the facts on the ground under the pretext or umbrella of fighting terrorism that these three states would work against. this project that basically threatens the integrity and safety of the suit and unity of the syrian territory and at the same time and this is the most important point i think here it's the

national security of neighboring countries and this is a public statement they are not you know the sort of commitment is taking place so would turkey coming from that analogy would turkey go alone in northern syria without a consent from russia and actually behind the scenes damascus. we don't think so but probably all these parties if we think of them now as a quartet russia iran turkey and a mosque in syria they're probably pushing the kurds to words or maneuvering in the kurds towards lowering their demands when they are talking with damascus we think that the kurds do not create do you think and autonomy is possible and definitely the americans don't think and autonomy is possible in northeastern syria so probably what the americans wish out of this is to avoid a humiliating situation where the arabs over there for example would be so ingrained with american presence think about it as an occupation that they would

actually start attacking u.s. soldiers and be probably the united states would want to withdraw swiftly so that they create a vacuum that would lead to conflict between those four parties iran syria and russia now that that said the safe way out of this would always be a negotiation with the central government in damascus what the kurds would come out would bring out of that because he is yet to see that but hopefully it will be good for all the parties. in every time there's a negotiation to end the conflict in syria the u.s. seems the upset it may be once what once it does leave it'll leave the players on the ground because if they have real genuine interest they can resolve it joshua it's been reported that in september john bolton went to the pentagon and was asking for. a menu of ideas how to react militarily to

iran for an alleged terror attack within the green line in baghdad. there's i tell you everything we need to know about john bolton in the middle east. well you know it's not only that but john bolton and. therefore he got his present job he was. he was lobbying for regime change in iraq he was talking to me rejean change in iran excuse me was he was talking to figure running groups united states and saying that he was all in favor of regime change in iran so he has a very aggressively anti iranian and which i presume is part of the reason he was brought to the top of the pick for president trump so president trump is sitting on a very anti iranian foreign policy crowd and we say that from pompei when his speech in cairo as you you explained in your opening which was a really a level letter to saudi arabia. exactly. all the problems in the middle

east on iran and this is of course a the anti obama policy in some ways but it's also it puts the united states in a very small can and it's a camp that's very divided because the gulf arabs and israel which of course america is trying to bring the two together to face off against iran they are extremely divided and we see between qatar and saudi arabia but not of the gulf arabs really trust each other they're not ready to really combine and it's a mess the middle east is a mess today and the united states doesn't really know what to do with it you know sabra it's go back to london i mean we went when trump made his announcement the original announcement now in december of last year of withdrawing from syria it was quickly followed up by. lowering the number of troops in afghanistan after trump

made his trip to iraq not going through the diplomatic procedures which obviously annoyed the iraqi government they too says he said it's time for american troops or some of them to leave here i mean we do have an exit is of one form or another and it's all of these countries want america to leave it. interesting a pompei is that we only go where we're asked to go and we leave when we're told to leave which is patently untrue but there seems to be a movement across this very large region to see a lowering of american military presence in the different countries that have different interests this seems to be a trend and i think this is what the form of policy blob is terrified of because it says kind of this. imperial role in the middle east is the glue that keeps the political class together if it's republican or democrat they all seem to be in lockstep on the d. u.s.

should never leave once it's gone somewhere go ahead. what do you see here in britain when we were out of the empire in that region we knew how to run things that's the british not me. americans trying to do the same thing but they have absolutely no idea how to do this thing when i go to america if i tell somebody i'm from them then i have to say london england because they think it's some sort of a village in one of the wyoming state told they they have and they have no idea about that region now at the present moment the regimes that go in jordan in egypt and precisely in iraq are all protected by the americans and trump is absolutely right in saying we are protecting all of you and we are keeping you there all of you this is absolutely correct america never talks about iraq he has five thousand soldiers in iraq that's term he talks about syria he talks about

afghanistan he never talks about iraq because under the pretext that he's fighting iran he's keeping the american soldiers to protect the regime in baghdad which is pro iran which is a conflict off nobody can understand this idiocy of pot. but as far as american policy america no longer has friends other than israel and even in israel they are beginning because because of trump's loose every time he talks from the hip and he keeps on sending these tweets and the noise everybody even is or even getting annoyed with it he has no friends in the middle east nobody trust him not even m.b.a.'s who has given him half a billion or have it really and dollars off investment even eat doesn't trust them anymore ok so they. were almost out of time and i want to go back to damascus mark

what's really interesting again it's under reported in western media is that essentially syria's been welcomed back into the arab league gulf countries are moving opening up their embassies here i mean. there is a wide acceptance now in the region that the government in assad will stand and remain go ahead in damascus. yes i think a lot of people in the region and probably in the west as well we've heard for example from britain foreign secretary jeremy hunt saying the same we have to expect to be there for a while and we have to work on that and they congratulated russia for winning influence in syria and they full of this comes with some responsibility and so on but these are a few of the arabs it's also a little bit more complicated than what it seems perhaps the likes or the access now we can we can probably talk about an axis of saudi arabia. egypt.

they took the first step they took the initiative to do a new. relationships with damascus and bring back to moscow to the uniform the u.s. was the first to open its embassy there the saudis are ok i couldn't. jump in here if you think we're on the run out of what was interesting when ok. was the tiny thanks to my guests in london damascus and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. you next time and remember. when i came back from iraq now oh mary i want to her was

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he. i'm not sure if you're in the playground or you just wait.