as tories were congratulated for voting for themselves on wednesday to keep traits from a prime minister a country that believes they have. no choice right. country share. the names of clement attlee and the man he defeated after leading the u.k. to victory against the nazis were touchstones in the defeat of teresa mayes breaks a deal. this should be a historic day for the future of our country and parliament this was once a chamber of winston churchill and clement attlee instead it is a day of high farce and self-delusion but as the late world war two veteran harry leslie smith who also featured in this week's labor broadcast said labor leader jeremy corbyn made him think of arguably britain's greatest post-war prime minister jimmy you're a may call a minute and remind me of clement in nineteen forty five and i think if he puts his shoulder to it where you know i think he can be. a man

who changed new. england for the better clement attlee did someone who would not agree is the grandson of clement attlee david cameron's former whip in the house of lords british tory government dear lord deathly who served in yugoslavia and in iraq joins me now law that they welcome to going underground so before we get to defense matters why do you think your grandfather's name was invoked time and time again not only at the tourism a brix a deal vote which was the worst vote for a prime minister in recent memory maybe ever let alone a no confidence motion on wednesday where the closest thing about clam was his brilliance holding together a disparate disparate and talented team and you saw when he went sick he did occasionally the team fell apart but as long as he was. as well he held that team together and that's what we're missing now there are only two prime ministers in. really change anything a post-war one was

a clam and there was. action but what does his legacy have specifically to do with what's happening between corporate interests who may have the dispatch box was quite interesting because actually the relationship between clam and winston was very close in fact they've recently published a book about that and it tells us the relationship was even closer than i thought it was and was disappointing is that jamie coburn doesn't want to go and have a chat with prime minister. about what we could do to get out of the brics trap that we were in the moment be interesting to see how it pans out why do you think then that most people would think of them is a mortal enemies of directly defeated churchill i mean they had their political battle obviously that both wanted to be in front nine forty five they both wanted to be prime minister but recognised it last but they were close and they were.

a member they've been the pair of them in prosecuting the war for four years all of it was together working as a brilliant. that friendship with. started long before the war it wasn't going to go on down in the hospitals i got people who who are bash across the chamber and often difficult questions and then when i was a minister they'd ask me difficult questions that the name of the game ok well i know the papers have been released you voted for terrorism is deal but yet we had the former head of m i six richard dealing former head of all u.k. armed forces would go three saying the deal you voted for would in danger in national security un swayed by such eminent people first thing to remember is the role of hassles is to advise legislation in additional check on the executive and a source of expertise is for the house of commons to decide which way we go and use their experience and little bit difficult. in doing that. but our job is once

they've made the decision we're going to make sure we make sure that it works that the government's not abusing its powers that when we get a settlement about how we're going to do type approval for you to get a lot of them yes we're going to get a lot of them whether we've got enough time to do them was another matter but we will make sure that it that it works a little girl three zero is your colleague at the woods yeah i know him very well and a goal of respect for him i think there's something in what he says in that we don't want to get sucked into european army but not be in the decision making process that's something to be avoided. but clearly post there will have to be a very close security and defense relationship with e.u. partners nato is in some difficulties. and we've got the trump problem. we not only because the whole problems we've got the trump problem. which is

a nightmare as ambassador london wouldn't describe it as trump probably would you wouldn't know because he has a point to buy from but trump is quite rightly asking very snotty questions about defense expenditure of the european nation particular germany massive economy but it only spends one percent of g.d.p. on on its own forces well as with. yes of course we cook the books a bit but no doubt they do that as well ok we're going to have to explain to me what a fully formed divisional deployment is that what you've been talking about yes and . i asked the question last week about the capability the u.k. has to deploy division against. division when we cross the start line in iraq was twenty five thousand people is a huge organization and needs a lot of logistics support there are very few countries that can even deploy at brigade strength three to five thousand men. out of country after country we can do

it emergence can do it the french can do it and he's presumably the chinese and the russians the chinese and russian i mean the chinese can do whatever they want because they've got the economy to do it but a my concern is that we should be able to deploy it at divisional strength against a peer opponent it will be a best effort we don't know what week this is we go because we haven't tested it we have last time we had a division deployed for maneuver and deployment very largely fully formed and supported which means through the logistics was nine hundred eighty nine it was called who is the peer opponent that you keep. that. was mentioned in particular ask yourself if being a major plot was saying russia is not friends who will prepare for war with russia now what we must do. deter any possibility of that occurring so nuclear weapons aren't enough for the. crazy bradley former chief of defense stuff made

a really important point if you do not have enough conventional capability you mutely trip wire is set far too low and therefore so if you take the baltic states i'd say the government's policy is absolutely correct we've got relatively small forces we haven't even got brigade but that's all you need. but supposing russia did do something in the baltic states not immediately likely but supposing they did. and we just had to walk away from you couldn't respond with used nuclear weapons i hope i hope you know exactly exactly what the point is you should be looking at the point is that if your conventional capability is too weak your nuclear threshold is too low i want to get more into the countenancing of any kind of conflict between a rusher in britain in

a second but eventually forces in britain arguably britain has lost the wars in iraq libya afghanistan syria. iraq presumably with maybe afghanistan's with the kind of divisional deployment you say is essential but britain has lost every war isn't. the difficulties first of all in in iraq we very successfully got regime to collapse and i took part in the operation in. early two thousand and three we got the regime to collapse but then we dismantled the security of the shimada than mold it to what we wanted. disbanded the iraqi army and then wonder why the whole place collapsed in afghanistan there's been another horrific bomb this week killing i don't know how many obviously there are no negotiations former enemy. libya a catastrophe in north africa are leading to refugees because the mediterranean and syria clearly this government to resume wanted to overthrow the government of that

failed to yeah. but those were operations. first of choice of persons or perhaps if you look to history books would be very cautious about afghanistan on the contrast with the operation literal person the book is quite interesting because in the balkans we had very high nato to densities and therefore the bad guys were absolutely unable to get up to any mischief some say i didn't maybe a gram of that compared to the tens of thousands dead or injured from say the war british war in afghanistan and iraq and these are all these other words d.w.p. said twenty one thousand british people were killed or died waiting for welfare in the war fighting at home the numbers dead no way bigger here because of policies like that. anyone kind of on the potential conflict with russia we should be doing as russia is deterring them when i voted in the referendum when things are

considered what does putin want me to do and i did exactly the opposite you'd want u.k. to leave you so i think i'll vote to remain true to his controlling here. and i think i may get a german who can point here and saying that if twenty one thousand people died waiting for claims here the numbers of dead at home caused by economic warfare far greater than any perceived threat from russia but the snag is we're spending more than double the u.k. defense budget on social security we're spending a hundred thousand million pounds on social security. and yet i still see these people sleeping rough in westminster tube station but you don't see an economic warfare of home like say a soldier i don't regard that as a cabinet and you know we're not talking about even doubling defense expenditure but a lot of people come in taters saying we should be on three percent well on the recruitment

yes at the moment it's eight thousand two hundred short of the numbers in twenty ten it's not clear that young people don't want to join the services you don't think it's because of these failed wars abroad that is not making the severity of the part of the difficulty is that. we're not doing there's a freshens anymore and that is slightly causing the problem with full employment in full employment record levels of employment so it's less attractive to go and join the armed forces also i think. the pain conditions. active so the number of factors making it difficult to recruit how serious of a problem is recruitment well you talked about first of all the numbers the other problem of course is that the recruitment. operation is being privatized by capital

and given to them call capital i have to say to put him on to the not recently we're running into controllers you're revert to said first thing you were proud of the. world it's not so much the campaign about ministration and i've had one potential officer complain to me about capital and that they've been the system at the moment is being good to kill us about. medical conditions particularly. and i complained to the minister level and got both good response and ministers on the case and then a few weeks later i had to report a minister privately i got another one almost exactly the same story said the recruiting mechanism is fraud and there's no doubt about it they must be losing very good people because you try and join the armed force and find out is too

difficult get messed around and walk away and be a banker instead but i think it came after the break stories of the so-called zombie government shuffles long after unprecedented scales of defeat former coalition home office minister norman baker and consultant to the well the mia daily mail and tell us what it's like. to have going on the ground. i've been saying the numbers mean. matter us is a one trillion dollars in debt more than ten point zero points have to. eat. five percent of global wealth if you want to the ultra rich eight point six percent market saw a thirty percent rise last year home with four hundred to five hundred three per second per second and bitcoin rose to twenty thousand dollars. china is building

two point one billion dollars a i industrial park but don't let the numbers overwhelm. the only numbers you need to remember in one one can afford to miss the one and only boom box. office or. toyota to get up off the ground serve began to pat him down. and then place on the sounds of kind of fighting him i mean grown man like mislead essentially the officer who. drew his are trying. to push their way from the office or the joy out of his crib. the obvious or did they kind of lunge for the weapon once missed and then when it happened on she swung at the observations didn't hit him i never saw any contact between the two any kind went back to where they were so the officers back here there try again fifteen feet apart at this point and that's when the officer pulled out his gun and he did turn

three. welcome back you would arguably not know it if you listen to mainstream narratives on t.v. this week the decisions by juries are made that austerity is over and not true according to jeremy corbyn or the un but what happens when corbin raises poverty in the house of commons the un rapporteur on poverty says the government is mississippi courage very it's very telling very telling indeed that as soon as i mention the report of the un rapporteur who said the government was in a state of denial about poverty in britain sure e.m.p. start jaring tell that to people queuing up at food banks from a corbin is and the jewish leader of the opposition has met and seen semitism run riot and. i think the words by and turn

our eyes weaken our security and our economy and we will never let that happen yeah corbin arguably explains what the country feels isn't it the case mr speaker that with every other previous prime minister faced with this kind of defeat last night they would have resigned and the country would be able to choose the government that they want. but elites in britain arguably will do anything to stop german corbin being prime minister whatever the people think joining me now is trains are made former home office minister norman baker and consultant editor of the daily mail andrew pierce welcome both of you so i guess andrew first why why hasn't she resigned why she wasn't going to promises don't tend to they cling on for dear life and mrs may will cling on for dear life as only she can having said that it's the worst defeat in parliamentary history in ordinary times backbenchers had ministers would have to say but we're not in ordinary times we are so close up

now to d.-day a march twenty ninth and if we are going to leave on that. say they simply no time to replace or is it their will in ordinary times because they think jeremy kuhlmann will win a general election that will have to be the tenor of the confidence debate this week i don't think many people even on the labor benches seem to recall him when he generated action and i venture to hate to think there's a lot of peace i spoke to dread the idea of an early general election because they because they don't want him to win because they think he would cause such profound damage to the economy norman time and time again on the confidence of confidence motion that was we can have a general election because look at jeremy colvin so that's like saying jeremy corbyn would be prime and i think that was going to be news lying to take for those who got deeper worries about their own party as a matter of fact look jeremy corbyn a six points behind you pin the polls against somebody to hold they're going to be an impulse but he has been behind us last october six points behind but in your head right well he's not massively ahead of us ahead in this case just government

the most chaotic and devised divided government for ages labor should be ten fifteen twenty points only made up twenty percent last time so the labor always thinking well it will be a landslide the key here is on who is seen as the best prime minister and he is still streets of high treason maybe arguably the worst right minister since the second world war there norman once a second referendum blindly saying it displayed a majority arguably in the country saying this would be dangerous for the whole of the idea of democracy in this cause dangerous to democracy is that we sleepwalk into a deal which is possibly worse than your interest you have at the present time which is what it is she's having discussions for the m.p.'s now and apparently her red lines are all in place she's not prepared to talk about delaying all tickle fifty should not be president about a referendum if she doesn't want to cost and you can i mean what is she talking about other than trying to persuade people to have had a position adopted but it's been rejected by the most comprehensive vote in parliament in the last hundred years well and what does she mean by negotiate i

wonder jeremy corbyn didn't mark and i think if you analyze some of her answers in the comments this week she's left the door and. are for extending article fifty because even if they manage to get a deal through which they can't in its current form there's all sorts of legislation has to go straight through to so i think almost certainly there's going to be a delay to article fifty however you go to persuade the european union's twenty seven countries there's a cogent reason why it's going to be today and she won't and that's not to be to try to get that deal resold unless of course she comes back from brussels with that piece of paper about that wretched thing called the backstop some form of legally binding power surely surely the euro craps in brussels mrs merkel is countries about to go into recession want to have a deal because it doesn't suit them either about oh you're on your own of the negotiator in brussels she she is arguably i've got to i've got to us that the main narrative on media here is. corbin should have agreed to give way to theresa

may and walk in there and start negotiating with her why is it corbin's fault. all day the other day the labor m.p.'s are saying we want to have cross party talks and then the clear him from number ten was given out with him because he says shamelessly opportunistic what leader of the opposition isn't seamus opportunistic that's the job so finally she opens the door and sitting there and says no he should have just gone in even if he only spoke for five and said these are my red lines and it's a gift for the conservative party because the narrative now isn't the worst prime minister since history since records began it's what an earth he said labor party did to and he's got profound difficulties behind him when that no confidence debate was going on and michael gove wound up that debate for the government you could see the nice on the way the benches because they know this guy isn't isn't leading them on the europeans here he's just sitting back waiting for the tory government to screw up right they're doing that pretty well so that's not a very responsible position for the opposition well known we had figures from the

d.w.p. that tens of thousands of people have died waiting for welfare how can jeremy cool bill negotiate with a brain minister who's responsible arguably for the deaths of tens of thousand of these strange times and wind up agreeing with you blair which is not something i've normally done. it's a prime minister ask you to come in and talk to you then you do so because because you have to put your position as under says i mean it's just i don't goal of epic proportions but jeremy corbin not to do so the next day is right wing press they couldn't believe their luck called was all over the front pages as a devil incarnate what actually what should it almost always there tends to be every day don't let me he left it wide open he should be going in there as yes n.p. did as a lib dems did actually go in and say this is what we want to table i don't want to the early them leader get out of the talks with you as well he got credibility by being seen to be responsible in doing talking to you noticed something strange about the summing up in the no confidence speech indicating

a more serious split in the labor party was short you thought. to the person winding up jeremy coughlin would be his great ally the man who's the key to this whole cauldron project john mcdonald shot a target in fact he was worn down the front page almost as far out of you almost where the speaker sits which was very strange in the debate was wound up by the deputy they believe to. be no supporter of gold and he managed to get through a very clever funny speech that meant in the leader of the opposition by name and i just wonder now the cracks between the chart shadow chancellor and the labor leader are beginning to grow and trust me if a leader falls out with his chants were shouting chatter that's got profound issues that it's not about him and resume going on really well they do you work for trades we have the home office but with the right thing to draw whoever i mean are you surprised that she's managing to triangulate all the elements in the house of

parliament what recently has been doing throughout has been pretty interesting conservative party first is what just a tightrope between the pressure to relevant on one side and there are major elements on the other side and the whole thrust of her policy on the go straight to the ears bit about the conservative party holding together on the she can't hold together she has for the country she sense that you can't hold a recent blog. to go they are completely different you should be in different parties held together and that's what's driving her but you know the reason may is incapable of listening to other people outside a very you know there's a real you know shouldn't do anybody actually you worked with well you don't listen to deliver it she objected to your argument unlike unlike other toe in the home office down the road unlike other one of those who recognise with the coalition she wouldn't do that she wouldn't just drone people half the time with little to hear them shoot a tin ear for for other views and she just plow straight on down this track and you know she doesn't let she doesn't learn i mean the catastrophic vote last week she

has to change her position and she's trying to just keep the same position going into discussions it's not i i. i've known trees to make twenty years and i still don't know anything about her. but i do know one thing she is famously incapable of delegating and it's not just because normally set it down she would delegate she doesn't because she doesn't trust people she trusts phillip the man from c.n.a. who she's married to and she trusts accept an election officials in a. quite right to he's made money had no problem with that. she doesn't trust ministers because they all want her job and that's part of the problem and there is a bunker now in number ten and it's just a few people in it so i guess predictions are pointless activity. and address i mean we're we're covering austerity more than anything else which is continuing behind the scenes well this is going on away from the actual personalities here i suppose it is the end of the conservative party now you know people always say this

about the tory party they were desperate over this they cannot speak since the corn laws in one thousand nine hundred six or whatever every it was they will manage to hold it together because they've got an incredible disciplinary. vision of how to win an election they know if they split that they're out for a generation the split is much more likely to come in my view on the labor benches i think you're going to find people like mouna who once were seen as a future labor leader and are to remain a forming a new parliamentary grouping. yet blairites yeah who facing decent action there was for about three or four labor m.p.'s i don't know what they did in the compensation last week about the whip withdrawn from them they could join this group and that's where the real problems are i know that's not the big story in terms of how we get briggs it through but that's where the splits are more likely to come i still think we're going to leave the european union but i'm no longer convinced it's going to be a march twenty ninth and just review norman as for the remain as you don't think they are being seen more and more as an elite out of touch very rich people i think i

think elderly people are akin to presented in that way but i think there are many people who are. get out people out of super who are taking a whole lot of flack for something she says she believes in but in the public realm whether it's j.k. rounding or whatever it is a very rich people telling britain and they over his very rich are is a resolution about how people communicate messages and certainly about the referent two years ago the way they remain campaign communications question was not right and not effective and didn't go to the heart it went to the head rather than the heart and it wasn't in fact you do things getting worse not actually worse but i think there is a need to make sure that there is a. consideration given to the way that the arguments it is not to even as effective as it might to be needed in the brain so it would be bigger if there was a second river and i do i think it's possible but i still think that's the right course of action to take we have to look if you don't fly by a flat or rent a flat you go to the flat you say i'm interested in this flat i think i'm going to read this and then you get the terms conditions they will use also for the rooftops

for the wall about their next doors cat needs to be fed and you're going to know about that when i want to plot a so you say i want to turn condition stable no i don't want to fight anymore so the difference between the principle and approach in detail when you see what the terms are and i think the way forward is to have a vote where you present the package that mrs may is negotiated against. and it's not you do not understand that and it said quite clearly on that piece of propaganda that was pushed through my door and everybody else's door join the referendum cost of nine million pounds only pushing the case to remain this is a once in a lifetime that the government will support it the lib dems leaders at the time said they would support it there anything that because they lost the battle has just got to get together and try and make the deal work people don't want a second referent in my view and the longer people like tony blair and alastair campbell his henchmen come out saying we should have a second referendum the more the support would drop and your business in the bank thank you very much and that's of the show will be back on monday told the death of

news and reporting from war zones a veteran journalist avoided and a member of parliament well until then he was not by social media was he on monday night. five years of the day of the different lives. when i was told seemed wrong but old rules just don't hold. me to old it is yet to shape out these days you can stick to it and in games from it because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. it was you know provision on my back when i wanted to. get. your for your height oh i lost his boss because i just got the. resources

you know. anybody among my fellow those in prison but that's honest i don't mean any of them. join us you know but i was you know. you know just i mean what almost got it i'm already but it was. the i mean it was a lot. different up as well i must say i mean i really feel that you're. getting worse but those were the almost. all of this but i was just. my buddy with us if you could a car bomb i just got that already yes equestrian he thought of getting up there calling with you you're simply i mean think about a lot of problem you just got to go he.

told the los. i believe. that the u.s. president and special counsel robert moon the forcefully reject an incendiary new buzz feed for alleged wrongdoing find donald trump. the american born journalist working for the wrong press t.v. is to explain to us as a material witness in an undisclosed investigation.