breaks a deal. this should be a historic day for the future of our country and parliament this was once the chamber of winston churchill and clement attlee instead it is a day of high farce and self-delusion but as the late world war two veteran harry leslie smith who also featured in this week's labor broadcast said labor leader jeremy corbyn made him think of arguably britain's greatest post-war prime minister jimmy you're a may call a minute and remind me of clement in nineteen forty five and i think if he puts his shoulders to where you know i think he can be. a man who changed. england for the better just clement attlee did someone who would not agree is the grandson of clement attlee david cameron's former whip in the house of lords british tory government dear lord death you served in yugoslavia and in iraq joins me now law that they welcome to going underground so before we get to defend

masses why do you think your grandfather's name was invoked time and time again not only at the tourism a bricks a deal vote which was the worst vote for a prime minister in recent memory maybe ever let alone a no confidence motion on wednesday where the closest thing about clam was his brilliance holding together a disparate disparate and talented team and you saw when he went sick he did occasionally the team fell apart but as long as he was. as well he held that team together and that's what we're missing now there are only two promises to change anything post-war one was clam and there was action but what does his legacy have specifically to do with what's happening between corporate interest or may have the dispatch box was quite interesting because actually the relationship between clem and winston was very close in fact david recently published a book about that. it tells us that the relationship was even closer than i thought

it was and was disappointing is that jamie coburn doesn't want to go and have a chat with prime minister. about what we could do to get out of the bricks trap that we were in the moment be interesting to see how it pans out why do you think then the most people would think of them is a mortal enemies of directly defeated churchill i mean they had their political battle obviously that they both wanted to be in front nine forty five they both wanted to be prime minister but recognised it last but they were close and they were. a member they've been the pair of them in prosecuting the war for four years all of it was together working as a brilliant. that friendship with. started long before the war it wasn't going to go on down in the hospitals i got people who who are bash across the chamber and often difficult questions and when i was

a minister they'd ask me difficult questions that the name of the game ok well i know the papers have been released you voted for terrorism is deal but yet we had the former head of m i six there is a deal of former head of all u.k. armed forces would go three saying the deal you voted for would in danger in national security un swayed by such eminent people first thing to remember is the role of hassles is to advise legislation be additional check an executive and a source of expertise is for the house of commons to decide which way we go and they're experiencing a little bit of difficulty in doing that. but our job is once they've made the decision we've got to make sure we make sure that it works that the government of using its powers that when we get a settlement about how we're going to do type approval for you to get a lot of them yes we're going to get a lot of them whether we've got enough time to do them no another matter but we will make sure that if it works it will go through it. your colleague modes yeah i

know him very well and a goal of respect for him i think there's something in what he says in that we don't want to get sucked into european army but not be in the decision making process that's something to be avoided. but clearly post there will have to be a very close security and defense relationship with e.u. partners nato is in some difficulties. and we've got the trump problem. we not only because all war all the whole problems we've got the trump problem. which is a nightmare as embassadors london wouldn't describe it as trump probably would you would know because he has a point you buy from but trump is quite rightly asking very snotty questions about defense expenditure of the european nation particular germany massive economy but it only spends one percent of g.d.p. on on its own forces well as with. yes of course we cook the books

a bit but no doubt they do that as well ok we're going to have to explain to me what a fully formed divisional deployment is that what you've been talking about yes in . i asked the question last week about the capability the u.k. has to deploy division against. division when we cross the start line in iraq was twenty five thousand people is a huge organization and need a lot of logistics support there are very few countries that can even deploy at brigade strength three to five thousand men. out of country after country we can do it emotions can do it the french can do it and he's presumably the chinese and the russians the chinese and russian in the chinese can do whatever they want because they've got the economy to do it but a my concern is that we should be able to deploy it at divisional strength against a peer opponent it will be a best effort we don't know what week this is we go because we haven't tested it we

have last time we had a division deployed for maneuver and deployment for the last we fully formed support it was mean to the logistics was nine hundred eighty nine deployed who is the peer opponent that you keep. that. was mentioned in particular ask yourself if being a major plot was saying russia is not friends with prepare for war with russia now what we must do. deter any possibility of that occurring so nuclear weapons aren't enough for the. craig bradley former chief of defense staff made in a really important point if you do not have enough conventional capability you mutely trip why is set far too low and therefore if you take the baltic states said the government's policy is absolutely correct we've got a relatively small forces we haven't even got brigade but that's all you need.

but supposing russia did do something in the baltic states not immediately likely but supposing they did. and we just had to walk away from you couldn't respond we used nuclear weapons i hope i hope you know that example but the point is you should be looking at the point is that if your conventional capability is too weak your nuclear threshold is too low i want to get more into the camp sensing of any kind of conflict between the rusher in britain in a second but eventually forces in britain arguably britain has lost the wars in iraq libya afghanistan syria. iraq presumably with maybe afghanistan with the kind of divisional deployment you say is essential but britain has lost every war isn't. the difficulties first of all in in iraq we very

successfully got regime to collapse and i took part in the operation in. early two thousand and three we got the regime to collapse but then we dismantled the security of the shimada than mold it to what we wanted. disbanded the iraqi army and then wonder why the whole place collapsed in afghanistan there's been another horrific bombing this week killing i don't know how many obviously there are no negotiations former enemy. libya the catastrophe in north africa are leading to refugees across the mediterranean and syria clearly this government to resume wanted to overthrow the government of us and that failed to. but those were operations. person the choice of persons or perhaps if you look to history books would be very cautious about afghanistan the contrast with the operation operation to book was quite interesting because in the balkans we had very high nato to

densities and therefore the bad guys were absolutely unable to get up to any mischief some say i didn't maybe a ground. compared to the tens of thousands dead or injured from say the war british war in afghanistan and iraq and these were all these other words d.w.p. said twenty one thousand british people were killed or died waiting for welfare in the war fighting at home the numbers dead no way bigger here because of policies like that. then anyone can on the potential gauntlet with russia what we should be doing is russia is deterring them when i voted in the referendum when things are considered what does putin want me to do and i did exactly the opposite you'd want u.k. to leave you so i think i'll vote to remand bruton is controlling here. that's . the only thing i may get jeremy when you're in point here and saying that if

twenty one thousand people died waiting for claims here the numbers of dead at home caused by a economic war far greater than any perceived threat from russia but the snag is we're spending more than double the u.k. defense budget on social security we're spending one hundred thousand million pounds on social security. and yet i still see these people sleeping rough in westminster tube station but you don't see an economic warfare of home like say a soldier i don't know god that is if you have an economic war we're not talking about even doubling defense expenditure but a lot of people coming taters saying we should be on three percent well on the recruitment yes at the moment it's eight thousand two hundred short of the numbers in twenty ten it isn't clear that young people don't want to join the services you don't think it's because of these failed wars abroad that is not making the severity of the part of the difficulty is that. we're not doing there's

a freshened anymore and that is slightly causing the problem with full employment in full employment record levels of employment so it's less attractive to go and join the armed forces also i think. the pain conditions. so the number of factors making it difficult to recruit how serious of a problem is recruitment well you talked about that first of all the numbers the other problem of course is that the recruitment. operation is being privatized by capital and given to them call capital i have to say to put money into the not recently rolling into control with your revert. first in the out of the. world it's not so much the campaign about ministration and i have one potential office that complained to me about capital and that they'd be in the system at the moment is

being with us about. medical conditions particularly. and i complained to the minister level and got good response from ministers on the case and then a few weeks later i had to report to minister privately i got another one almost exactly the same story said the mechanism is flawed and there's no doubt about it they must be losing good people because you try and join the armed force and find out is too difficult get messed around and walk away and be a banker instead but i think you get after the break stories of the so-called zombie government. president of scales of defeat form a coalition of office minister norman baker and consultant to the well to be a daily mail and your peers tell us what it's like. to have going underground.

and no amount of economic activity going forward will ever provide the tax revenues sufficient to pay down the the steps. point of no return we've gone through the debt looking class. only one outcome that central banks will continue to print to keep teachers going on this insurmountable pile which means they come gap are guaranteed to increase which means the movement is going global and the global interaction is upon us and that's a guarantee. of

. welcome back you would arguably not know it if you listen to mainstream narratives on t.v. this week when assertions by juries are made that austerity is over and not true according to jeremy corbyn or the un but what happens when cool bin raises poverty in the house of commons the un rapporteur on poverty says the government is mrs kerry it's very telling very telling indeed that as soon as i mention the report of the un rapporteur who said the government was in a state of denial about poverty in britain sure am please start dearing tell that

to people queuing up at food banks from a coal bin is anti jewish. opposition has met and seen semitism run riot and. i'm turning our eyes weaken our security. and our economy and we will never let that happen. corbin arguably explains what the country feels isn't it the case mr speaker that with every other previous prime minister tryst with this kind of defeat last night they would have resigned and the country would be able to choose the government that they want. but elites in britain arguably will do anything to stop german corbin being prime minister whatever the people think joining me now is drugs are made former home office minister norman baker and consultant editor of the daily mail andrew pierce welcome both of you so i guess and you first why why hasn't she

resigned why she wasn't going to promises don't tend to they cling on for dear life and mrs may will cling on for dear life as only she can having said that it's the worst defeat in parliamentary history in ordinary times backbenchers had ministers would have deserted her but we're not in ordinary times we are so close up now to d.-day day march twenty ninth and if we are going to leave on that day there's simply no time to replace it is it will in ordinary times because they think jeremy corbin will win a general election that will have to be the tenor of the confidence debate this week i don't think many people even on the labor pension seem to recall him when the general election and i'm centers are going to hate to think there's a lot of labor peace i spoke to dread the idea of an early chain reaction because they because they don't want him to win because they think he would cause such profound damage to the economy norman time and time again on the confidence and the no confidence motion that was we can have a general election because look at jeremy colvin so that's like saying jeremy corbyn would be prime and i think that was going to be news lying to take for those

who got deeper worries about their own party as a matter of fact look generally call been a six point behind you pinning the polls against somebody to hold they're going to be an impulse but he has been behind us last last labor six points behind but in your head right well he's not massively ahead of us ahead you know in this case just government the most chaotic and devised divided government for ages labor should be ten fifteen twenty points only made up twenty percent. so the liberal ways and well it will be a landslide the key here is on who is seen as the best prime minister and he is still streets at high treason made arguably the worst minister since the second world war there on your birthday once a second referendum blindly saying it displayed a majority are you really country saying this would be dangerous for the whole of the idea of democracy in this cause dangerous to democracy is that we sleepwalk into a deal which is possibly worse than your interest you have at the present time which is what reason means deal is she's having discussions for the m.p.'s now and apparently her red lines are all in place she's not prepared to talk about delaying

else. about a referendum if she doesn't want to cost and you know i mean what is she talking about other than trying to persuade people to have her position adopted what has been rejected by the most comprehensive vote in parliament in the last hundred years well and what does she mean by negotiate i wonder jeremy corbyn didn't mark in thinking if you analyze some of her answers in the commons this week she's left the door ajar for extending article fifty because even if they manage to get a deal through which they can't in its current form there's all sorts of legislation has to go through to so i think almost certainly there's going to be a delay to article fifty however you go to persuade the european union's twenty seven countries there's a cogent reason why it's going to be today and she won't and that's not to be to try to get that deal resold unless of course she comes back from brussels with that piece of paper about that wretched thing called the backstop some form of legally binding power surely surely the euro crapsey in brussels mrs merkel these countries about to go into recession want to have

a deal because it doesn't suit them either about oh you don't want your mother negotiated in brussels she is arguably i've got i've got to us that the main narrative on media here is. called when should have agreed to give way to theresa may and walk in there and start negotiating with her why is it called and. fault. all day the other day the labor m.p.'s are saying we want to have crossed party talks and then the clear him from number ten was given up with him because he says shamelessly opportunistic what leader of the opposition isn't seamus opportunistic that's the job so finally she opens the door and sitting there for a man says no he should have just gone in even if he only spoke for five minutes said these are my red lines and it's a gift for the conservative party because the narrative now isn't the worst prime minister since history since records began it's what an earth he said labor party to and he's got profound difficulties behind him when that no confidence debate was

going on and michael gove wound up that debate for the government you could see the nice on the labor benches because they know this guy isn't isn't leading them on the europeans here he's just sitting back waiting for the tory government to screw up right they're doing that pretty well that's not a very responsible position for the opposition well known we had figures from the d.w.p. that tens of thousands of people have died waiting for welfare how can jeremy cool bill negotiate with a brain minister who's responsible arguably for the deaths of tens of well these strange times and wind up agreeing with you blair which is not something i've normally done. it's a prime minister ask you to come in and talk to you then you do so because because you have to put your position as under says i mean it's just i don't goal of epic proportions but jeremy corbin not to do so the next day is right wing press they couldn't believe their luck called was all over the front pages as a dabbling candidate what actually what should it almost always there tends to be every day don't let me he left it wide open he should be going in there as yes n.p.

did as a lib dems did actually go in and say this is what we want to table i don't want to the early them leader get out of the talks with you as well he got credibility by being seen to be responsible in doing talking to you know did something strange about the summing up in the no confidence speech indicating a more serious split in the labor party will shore. what you just saw. to the person winding up jeremy coughlin would be his great ally the man who's the key to this whole cauldron project john mcdonnell the shadow chancellor in fact he was worn down the front page almost as far out if you almost where the speaker sits which was very strange in the debate was wound up by the deputy they believe to. be no supporter of gold and he managed to get through a very clever funny speech that meant in the leader of the opposition by name and i just wonder now the cracks between the chart shadow chancellor and the labor leader are beginning to grow and trust me if a leader falls out with his chance or shot in china that's got profound issues that

it's not about him and resume get on really well they do you work for trey's we have the home office but with the right thing to draw. i mean are you surprised that she's managing to triangulate all the elements in the house of parliament what has been doing throughout has been put the interest of conservative party first is what just a tightrope between the pressure to relevant on one side and there are major elements on the other side and the whole thrust of her policy on the go straight to the e.u. has been about the conservative party holding together on the she can't hold together she has for the country she said that you can't hold a recent blog. to go the un completely different you should be in different parties but you should hold together and that's what's driving her but you know the reason may is incapable of listening to other people outside a very you know there's a real you know shouldn't do anybody actually you worked with well you don't listen to the lib dems she objected to your argument unlike unlike other toe in the home office down the road unlike other dignitaries who recognise with the coalition she

wouldn't do that she wouldn't just drone people half the time with the devil to hear them shoot a tin ear for for other views and she just planted straight on down this track and you know she doesn't let she doesn't learn i mean the catastrophic vote last week she has to change her position and she's trying to just keep the same position going into discussions it's mad i. i look i've no trees maybe twenty years and i still don't know anything about her. but i do know one thing she is famously incapable of delegating and it's not just because normally set it down she wouldn't delegate she doesn't because she doesn't trust people she trust phillip the man from c.n.a. who she's married to and she trusts accept an election officials in a. quite right to he's made money had no problem with that. that she doesn't trust ministers because they all want her job and that's part of the problem and there is a bunker now in number ten and there's just a few people in it so i guess predictions are pointless activity. and address i

mean we're we're covering austerity more than anything else which is continuing behind the scenes well this is going on away from the actual personalities here i suppose it is the end of the conservative party now you know people always say this about the tory party they were screwed over this they cannot speak since the corn laws in one thousand nine hundred six or whatever every it was they will manage to hold it together because they've got an incredible disciplinary. vision of how to win an election they know if they split that they're out for a generation the split is much more likely to come in my view on the labor benches i think you're going to find people like to muna who once were seen as a future labor leader and are to remain a forming a new parliamentary grouping. yet blairites yeah who facing decent action there was for about three or four labor m.p.'s i don't know what they did in the compensation last week about the whip withdrawing from them they could join this creeping that's where the real problems are i know that's not the big story in terms of how we get

brigs it through but that's where the splits are more likely to come i still think we're going to leave the european union but i'm no longer convinced it's going to be on march twenty ninth and just review norman as for the remain as you don't think they are being seen more and more as an elite out of touch very rich people i think i think elderly people are akin to presented in that way but i think there are many. people who are i mean i've got to get out people on a superhero who are taking a whole lot of flak for something she says she believes in but in the public realm whether it's j.k. rounding or whatever it is a very rich people telling britain and they always very rich it was a resolution about how people communicate messages and certainly about the referent two years ago there were the remains campaign communications question was not right and not effective and didn't go to the heart it went to the head rather than the heart and it wasn't in fact you doing is getting worse not actually worse but i think there is a need to make sure that there is a. consideration given to the way that the arguments it is not to even as effective

as it might be needed in the brain so it would be bigger if there was a second river and i do think it's possible but i still think that's the right course of action to take we have to look if you don't fly by a flat or rent a flat you go to the flat you say i'm interested in this flat i think i'm going to rent this plot and then you get the terms of conditions they will use on school for the rooftops for the whole about their next door's cat needs to be fed and you're going to know about that when i want to plot a so you say i want to talk conditions double no i don't want to fight anymore so the difference between the principle and approach in detail when you see what the terms are and i think the honest way forward is to have a vote where you present the package that mrs may is negotiated against as i think . it's now you do understand that and it said quite clearly on that piece of propaganda that was pushed through my door and everybody else's story join the referendum a cost of nine million pounds only put in the case to remain this is a once in a lifetime that the government will support it the lib dems leaders at the time said they would support it they're only doing this because they lost the bad news is that you've got to get together and try and make the deal work people don't want

a second referendum my view and the longer people like tony blair and alastair campbell his henchmen come out saying we should have a second referendum the more the support would drop and your business nor bank thank you very much and that's of the show we're back on monday told the death of news and reporting from war zones a veteran journalist avoided and a member of parliament well until then he was not vice versa. it was your money ninety five years of the day of the deaf and then. it was you know provision i want to know what we. owe. you for your height oh alaska's buskers. which was you know. any. one of. the.

choices you know you're not. you're not just i mean what i'm already but i respect . the law we're going to go with. this one up as well i must really feel that you will get off on getting with us but those were the old. my family fussy you could look at obama just but they're already yes equestrian he thought of getting up there with you. to get up off the ground. on the sounds of maybe. something he did

a kind of lunge for the web in one smiths and they would have been done. and. i never saw any contact with. any kind of back to where they were back here again fifteen feet apart at this point. he's got three. leg.

length . eat. sleep. take asimilar to canon are called into action in paris as government yellow press rallies a stage for tens of consecutive weekends across france fast despite president probably launching a national debate to placate the protesters.