hello and welcome to worlds apart eight years since the two thousand and eleven uprising in egypt and the country's standing is still in the eye of the beholder to some outside the country it's a hardline dictatorship with thousands of political prisoners to those inside it's a work in progress that telling against terrorism and economic hardship is there any middle ground between these two narratives well to discuss that i'm now joined by mohammed sultan a participant in the january twenty fifth revolution and human rights advocate mohammed educate to talk to you thank you for coming on the show thank you for having me now you have every reason to hate the current egyptian authorities as they threw into jail where you were tortured and from what i understand you were

only released after the intervention of the obama administration but as horrible as i suppose you are a deal was were and he still bill lockyer a definitely i mean he is a strong word but. i would say that i definitely opposed the current policies of the regime that we are seeing now unprecedented levels of oppression. nothing like we've seen even in the mubarak era and has sold just i will post from a very principled and value based what's called this is not a difference of narratives or differing narratives this is. cracked down on ever has it has suffocated the political space in egypt has over sixty thousand political prisoners has kill has killed thousands of people and has a dozen more your rights record. and you know quite honestly it's more value and value fun. stands that i oppose these policies of the regime i don't hate the

regime for you know what it has done to me i've come to terms with what happens in with me in prison i was tortured physically and psychologically and my father still remains in prison so my friends and a lot of people that i know that i've gotten to know and i cons of the january twenty fifth revolution like i live. and i'm a donor and so many others that are now in prison and you know it's eight years later and again we're seeing we're seeing a new wave of repression that we'd like we've never seen before in egypt recent history well i think some people make. a statement that you haven't seen that kind of repression in its history because frankly that is a pretty brutal state from when it comes to for example prison riots and i'm not saying that simply russia doesn't have a better record but what i wanted to ask you about is from my personal experience.

back in the beginning of the arab spring i met a lot of people like yourself western expatriates going back to that countries of origin. syria thinking that they were poised for making their world a better place. for sure the fortunate ones have since. come back the unfortunate once and now dad and the question i want to ask you is why do you think vision of a new middle is that you guys had back then failed to materialize eight years later well i think i think there is there's a lot of a lot of moving parts to this i think that. first and foremost the young people of egypt. politically mature and plays a big it's partly or mainly because the political space in the past has been.

you know suffocated by successive regimes in the past where they were people young people are not allowed to participate in a representative democracy where they were able to practice politics so there was a little bit of a naive and i can say that here eight years later and i i think that's part of it but also part of it is that there were this there's an entire redeem there were regional powers that. they saw that this is this momentum for the people of the arab world demanding representation demanding that they have a say in the way that their future is going to be forged and that was threatening to authoritarian regimes in the region to monarchies in the region and to this autocratic rule that either by military or by monarchy and a lot of those regional players saw that as a threat to their own room live

a dull due respect did especially mohammed many of those regional leaders are now gone look at libya and i think the syrian government is also is also struggling so . do you think it's fair to blame it exclusively on the i was talking more about regional regional players like saudi arabia and the u.a.e. who funded you know the return of authoritarian regimes in the region and this one man rule when where it's not a representative democracy where you rule with an iron fist and people just have to accept that which was again plays into everything that the arab people rose up against in two thousand and eleven again don't get me wrong there was there was naïve attack on the people that came out they didn't have the political experience to organize and mobilize politically and have the political maneuvering that you know a seasoned politician under you know even even in countries. where you know democracy

is still transition and still evolving but you don't even have that so i think there's there is there's a plenty of blame to go around but you had young egyptians that when out to the streets and peacefully demanding their right to be involved in in forging and paving the way for their future and then you had authoritarian riches authoritarian regimes in the region that funded the military coming back in the political space and completely hijacking the political space and suffocating and completely boxing everybody out of that space including you know civil society and other political actors you mentioned your experience in jail and i know that when you were in jail you wrote a very emotional letter to president obama to reach you. essentially blame him for inspiring your hope for that better world then down abandoning that help i'm not

a fan of president obama no the anymore at least but do you think that it was it was fair to lay that he's feet i mean i definitely think so i think that according to the american law it is the right of the responsibility of the president of the united states to. protect its own citizens when there are unjust they detained by law and i was reminding him of that but then i was also reminding him that i that he did his his two thousand and nine cairo speech inspired the arab world in. the place that it took the place that it took place in the cairo university and the representation of the different political factions from civil society and other political actors that were that were invited to. his speech it spoke to the grievances and the the needs of the people not of the regime i would grant it to you but i want to quote something. from your own letter because you wrote that i'm

beginning to think that i was just another silly idealistic college kid who believed the world could look different with a leader such as yourself and they had of it address him to president obama don't you think that he himself reached dot disappointing conclusion by the end of his term that you know being committed to human rights is not enough to actually change the situation on the ground well i definitely think so i definitely and i still stand by that i i respect president obama very much and i even more so. you know and i owe him a ton of gratitude for his own intervention in my case and getting me out but also on the other cases that were worked on post two thousand and thirteen military coup in egypt but i do i don't think that the ideal was wrong i think i think that now even after everything that i've gone through and after i have myself have got

having gone through the experience that i have an eight years later and kind of being a little bit more mature and you know my outlook on the region i don't think that the idea was wrong i think that the pace that it was going and i think was too fast and i don't think anyone could could have done anything about it. and or to stop it in the way of it i think i think. you know for president obama to have. pulled the plug or not supported as much as he would have after the july third two i think that that was i think that that was a mistake i don't think and when i and i met president obama and i this is exactly what i told him that you know democracy you can't pull the plug on it that quickly doesn't take two years for democracy for democratic institutions and culture to kind. barretts fruits and what did he respond to to that kind of comment what

did he say to you president obama you know he. he responded he said we're doing everything that we can and you know kind of give me the politician the politician thing and kind of moved on to more personal asking me how my health was doing because i was on hunger strike and you know went on to ask me about my back to playing basketball and other things but i wonder if perhaps the it may be faulty premise in your thinking is this believe that one individual whether it is president obama or president al sisi for that matter can it alone change deeply ingrained social and cultural patterns because police brutality if you're a victim of has long been an institutional problem in egypt as well as across the entire middle east it's also a problem in my country do you think president al c.c. tolerates this system because he enjoys the brutality of it or is it perhaps because he's incapable of changing it well i would urge you to ask him that

question and you know if you ever get the chance like he was asked with what was capell you know asked him very very frank questions i don't think that you know if you if you asked him that question egypt i don't think that you'll be able to leave and that will be very very telling of what kind of methodology i don't know president sisi personally to tell you if he's a sociopath who enjoys brutality i can't tell you that he's probably not that he probably thinks that he's doing the right thing that this is a necessary evil that he needs to eliminate you know other differing political points of view and that he needs to crack down on people for having thoughts or expressing their thoughts because that threatens the distaste. for the strength of the state so you know again the activist in me from years ago would have told you that yes president is a sociopath and he's you know he's a. you know i love seeing you know lud and murder and brutality

the mature a more mature you know human rights advocate having gone through the experience that i've had living in washington d.c. you can kind of try to you know see how justification is different justifications for the crimes that are. you know authoritarian and or an autocrat would do in his country he thinks that he's doing it for the best interests of egypt he thinks that he's doing it for the best interests of egyptians but it's definitely not the case well as mature as you may be you still rely on pretty a colorful language when describing in your recent article you said that he has insecurities and hyper paranoia have turned egypt into quote a giant pressure cooker with no safety involved you also wrote that the country is having towards north korea style of civilian life even if that's the case what is

it that you want the united states to do about that i think that the united states has a lot of leverage. with the with the with the egyptian policies i think that. i'm i'm literally the living example i'm a living testament of the leverage that the united states government does have whether it's congress or the u.s. administration has with egypt that it simply has not used to advance human rights and democracy and i think that that there is definitely leverage there and. you know i don't think that the united states government has been using that leverage properly well let's take a very short break now we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned.

in twenty forty you know bloody revolution two to crush the demonstrations going from being relatively peaceful political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it just always i mean your list put video through me in the new bill is that i do split needle the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty fourteen. of those who took the kite invested over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. win goal make this manufacture come sentenced him to public wealth. when the ruling classes protect themselves. with the financial

merry go round lives only the one percent. we can all middle of the room signals. the real news is really. mean i mean i didn't read your years. it's going to. those whom you know most of the best will be in yours and yours it was not a. good month but you know. the ways the ways the way i did my best college life of the wife. left. me yes this is. one of those. these. new notes i know you're even close.

welcome back to will depart with mohamed felt and egyptian an american human rights advocate mohammed just before the break we were discussing did the leverage that the united states supposedly has with egypt and you know better than i did that. for quite some time has been a crucial country in the region and nowadays it is truly the lynchpin of the region security the ice is insurgency in sanai the border with libya the naval traffic oh by a day so i ask you now i mean i think the west and the united states in particular may need the security of egypt more than they gyptian themselves isn't it a bit naive to believe that human rights considerations with outweigh those

concerns well. i would i would argue against that i would i would say that yes egypt has a real terrorism problem it's no surprise to anyone. that terrorism problem has grown in the. in the within the rain. not decrease like this so is the violence around the region i mean you cannot blame it's solely on him there is a direct correlation between authoritarianism and and terrorism especially so i'll give you an example you know when you're in a dark room and you're your eyes begin to adapt and you can start you can begin to see your fingers and then when you turn on the light and you turn it back off for just a split second that room is that much darker and that's exactly what happened in egypt where egyptians all egyptians got a brief moment where the day. they tasted it freedom and democracy and what it

feels like to speak their mind and not have this these barriers the fear and the ceilings on their hopes and aspirations an entire people of one hundred million the largest country in the region and you turn off the light on them and and you reestablish these barriers a feel that he sees on that phrase because i have a question about it because eight you're talking about all the people of egypt and last year the people of egypt went to the polls and overwhelmingly voted to keep in office i'm not saying that it was a free and fair vote far from it but people did xpress they will do you understand why they may feel differently from from you i mean. of an election i can't even believe you that you know you're going on and calling it an election you had three different people that challenge people from within the regime beforehand you had

the intelligence chief on house arrest until today you had mahmoud who is the joint chiefs of staff i said it wasn't a free a fair vote but they did vote is a vote that many people deep did go to the polls they believed in afghan down in those elections to take that after it and to go to the polls and to vote it was a sham of an election it was brought from the u.a.e. and he is currently on house arrest the former prime minister and a semi and then who is the former joint chiefs of staff who was in the army who is appear your to c.c. and is now arrested and rotting away in a military prison because he only dared to challenge so you eliminate you clear the playing field and then you have this the barrier of fear the cost of speaking out in egypt to oppose the current regimes policies is so high with extrajudicial killings numbers being extremely high with inforce disappearances being so high with that many political. all prisoners with the suffocation of the

political space in a way that literally people from within the regime are being arrested and getting thrown in amid a military general like sami and then being imprisoned in a military prison the way he is you can't call that an election i mean i'm not i'm far less interested in elections than what people actually feel on the ground and let me ask you another question about that because your twitter handle sighs freedom over brad and it's a it's a very natural predisposition for a young man especially if you have another country to escape to but isn't that also an expression of your i mean great privilege because i know many egyptians for whom feeding their families is the primary concern and our choice is not between freedom and brad it's between having and not having brad do you do you understand them and why they may. tolerate all the abuses that you imagine and still go to the to the polls and vote as they used to say in india last year elections for stability and

security well i mean i think you're taking it way out of context what i meant by freedom overbred is my own fight inside of prison where i chose my own freedom over eating and i went on and on the a record breaking hunger strike so that i can bring attention to my plight and then end up getting out of prison so that works for me that freedom for me meant that i can give up eating and i love bread bread is my favorite food so that's for me i don't know i don't that's not it's not from a place of privilege it's it's i left i left my comfortable home in ohio columbus ohio and i went down for the revolution to join the egyptian people in their struggle for freedom in january twenty fifth i did that because i've always the egyptian the american part of my identity wanted to enjoy the same liberties and freedoms that the american part of my identity did and the only thing that. has

stood in the past in the way of that dream being realized how has been authoritarian autocratic regimes run by. so no this is not i have family members who make six hundred pounds that's that's six hundred pounds a month where my own class to feed five people in villages egypt i my parents both come from a very very poor and unprivileged place in egypt so i understand completely where the struggles of the people. you know how almost half the population is under the poverty line this is not a none of these are the policies that sisi has had the economic policies that he has has put in place has helped the actual people who are struggling go down to egypt and ask people if they can enjoy potatoes like they did tomatoes like they did ask them how many times the with all due respect i actually sat spoke to a lot of those people and some of them if i may say so if i may say so also blamed

this very rapid deterioration in the standards of living in egypt on people like yourself on young human rights advocates on the young politician to. the country to well it's not a complete cares but it's a pretty turbulent state do you take any any part of the responsibility for disappointing those who joined with you on the eight years ago for. you know promising but not delivering pretty much like president obama on those promises. that's that's that's not i would framing it that way. people without the street i took to the streets with people all we had was our voice and the regional powers ganged up on those people who had nothing but their voice nothing but their voice and their values they. they've killed us i was shot they killed us they

arrested us and they've used every single means at their disposal literally the of states against people who merely have their voice who merely want freedom who merely want social justice and they did that and now you want your you're blaming us for not delivering on promises i think you cannot wish democracy into existence you have to work very hard on it and i agree that the environment in egypt is very strong. and we've put it we've we've paid a very hefty price for democracy and we continue to pay a hefty price for speaking out i pay a hefty price just being on your show right now mohammed from my experience may leaders particularly in arab countries are very sensitive to both shaming and ridicule and that's the language many human rights advocate especially in the west employ it's also i think pretty evident at present l.c.c. is very sensitive to how he's pretty straight. in both the nassif and international

media don't you think that you can in a way lavry those sensitivities and maybe offer him a more constructive engagement the wand when he will not be failing as he is being attacked all the time and when he will be encouraged to cooperate with people like you who clearly wish to ask for the country so the issue has continuously been on the side of the regime the regime has rejected every offer since two thousand and thirteen to come to a table and discuss and that's mainly because that's what happens when you have a military general in charge of a country where the idea that someone does not obey their orders is out of this world this is an issue with having an authoritarian regime that it's its viewpoint or its perspective on governance comes to one person calling the shots that

discourse on politics only hinder governance and that's an issue so to put it very very simply if the regime was willing to sit down have a constructive conversation with anyone talking about myself with meet with anyone on how to best pave the way for a better egypt for of better future for egypt whether that's economically politically human rights or any any any of the issues that we care about egypt i am more than happy too many people are more than happy to it's the problem has been and the denying has been of the on the regimes and that he sees nobody else but it's self worth of having a conversation with well we will have to leave it there i really appreciate you being with us today and sharing your perspective thank you very much thank you i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and help to syria and same place same time here and will to par.

we set up the face of that here comes back and said that piece islands off there but the reality is there may still be a ship and. have it in this fine lair of my car past a lot i see you carry. the biggest thing and

show me is that we've never had an empty chair. like the contents of the something of an album. people obviously come in they just throw them into the water as disposal it may not be harmful for that little fish that it's one fragment a classic but once it makes its way up to us in the food chain it's getting to levels that are harmful. the value of because it is that it is a store of value it is hard money and it is predominately useful for the poorest to move the poor or you are the greater the need you have for sound money. u.s. veterans who come back from war often until those same stories. were going after the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of

their own soldiers either there already is several generations of them so i just got this memo from a certain branch offices we're going to attack and destroy the government and seven countries in five years americans pay for the wars with them money those with lives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war surely we can risk some discomfort for an easy miss for.

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