and your own security company now after having spent eight years and the special forces and then reached fame as a member of a mercenary unit expected outcomes there have been t.v. programmes about you characters are based on you it was played by leonardo di caprio and blood diamond are you using all this fame and attention to bring more clients to promote the business is a good thing right so we all get older obviously and we followed the film career process be just that if you find something from the stuff. so much special forces units born units close but not the same that's what i spend my military career and yes off of it i joined executive outcomes and i had a couple of years with them and also that our full moon company and then carried on from there now for the last eleven twelve years it's been programs africa which i moved to show that i'm the director quite happy to do normal commercial and the mystic type of security work. all right but what about the media question do you

like the media attention that help you get climate clients is a good for but is a good thing for business. no i don't like i'm media shy and so many people in my in my business and i have on one of the older guys around and i feel that we should have a voice and if it's a sensible so the question is we should answer them and we should speak out for our industry and also for that of the private military business because we feel that it has the right to exist as a place of modern business and politics and somebody should answer those questions and be on the media so here i am reluctant to leave but quite willingly yes so why is it though because other mercenaries from your generation that i talk to and i've spoken to quite a few they said that the media always portrays them in a negative light do you feel that things as well do you feel that the public

opinion is against you because you're considered a mercenary. well well thought out well balanced media will follow the story regardless unfortunately in the early days of executive outcomes. there was a a more sinister or a more politically driven agenda that planted stories this is well documented given ballers of the search and the subsequent book from there. so to a degree executive outcomes was the victim of a smear campaign which is different from good reporting on the other side of the coin we have enjoyed a fair and honest reporting for example the b.b.c. reported on their presence in sierra leone that can ninety five ninety six ninety seven in a very favorable and correct manner because at the end of that conflict all parties that was in the conflict was tried or was investigated by the special court. and executive elton's was given

a clean bill of health and this was well reported by the b.b.c. and it was picked up by other news media so yes there's good and bad we have to live with it that's that's what of the world that we live in so the private military companies on the continent like pilgrims africa that you're running because they're all based on people like you south african or are the original army veterans is there a new generation coming to replace you guys are there young people interested in this kind of work. i let me just make another distinction quickly programs africa as part of the british programs group we have commercial security for well over a dish that we pay our taxes and we do nothing that can be considered to be but at the type of work. but yes to answer the second part of your question in private military companies they certainly ease a new generation back in the day it was an exclusive small group most commonly known as the so everybody knew each other and to

a degree people understood that if a station of people and because they're small at the action in iraq and afghanistan that led to eighty a whole generation of new young short soldiers that left the services and went into the private security work and many of them found their way into private military companies the market was flooded not necessarily with quality people many of the guys were good but many of the guys were not so good and some of them were got kicked out of the military and also migrated towards a career in the private security industry so. to be honest modern security persons have to catch up with that in the world and properly bait candidates and employees and go through the same process as any corporate entity would be studies to determine if the candidate sitting in front of them for the job interview is in fact qualified is in fact experienced and he's infected aren't going for the job. so. i can see that you know. you're so experienced in the

military world and in private military what how do you recruit people do you look for physical attributes first and foremost or mental strength or moral fiber how can you tell without combat tasking that a person is solid reliable hireable. well this again two sides to this this on so the first is a commercial security business that is of international scale and it s. clients that a list of companies all over the world. you know there's a new international standard for security companies it's called the p a c one standard united nations that i've been in this client facing it is all about compliance and so on of that process we have to be compliant with the way we recruit a person no whether we recruit a security guard or whether we recruit the director so we go through the same recruitment process as any corporate entity would go through when it comes to a p.m.c. or other let me let me delve down

a little bit into the sort of slightly murkier world but at the contracts that was handed down by dodgy governments all by dodgy entities and it's word of mouth normally they would approach somebody that they trust or they would be they would be i have a solution it's to them by a entity that is what it is that offshoring that consists of former military personnel and those guys with the word of mouth they would use social media or phone calls emails and they would gather the guards pretty quickly. in general they were they could people they know but if it's a large contract and there's a lot of guys needed then obviously sometimes the quality slips a little bit. so you mentioned that your company mostly does defense where can you said that you make a distinction between companies that only do protection jobs and those that also go on this rancid jing in this working on a company that can mount offensive operations and more fun to me chopper hopping

after i don't know boko haram going to bush than escorting an oil executive from the airport to their rake and back. there's all sorts of differences between a commercial security company and a p.m.c. . a commercial security company delivers a wide range of services that borders on the just eco services outsourcing services technical services for example the installation of security measures around a office of c.c.t.v. cameras fencing lights it provides man guarding this is a god the front of office guy that sits at a security post or somebody that patrols a large yard with a sense now on the other hand the p.m.c. will often engage in combat and that for me is the difference p.m.c. is don't necessarily engage in combat p.m.c. use private military companies can get involved in the back end. but at the. proper but at least proper armies across the world in a support role but pm sees are sometimes also involved in combat training and then

in some cases they get involved in combat and that for me is the main distinction if you ask me whether i missed the days that i left the army and i'm in part of a private company i think i can combat yes it's a brotherhood and you do miss. and it is special and the bonds that you form back then stays with you forever but as you can see i'm getting older and greyer now so that is not my number one priority in life anymore do you ever encounter customers that try to misrepresent your mission in any way you're interviewing south right there to work. oh no. it's the store it's the stuff the stories of fictional made off to be honest when a p.m.c. engages with a customer. the contractual requirements are normally laid bare long before any work is done before any money changes hands during a mission or during a deployment or during the duration of

a contract yes that acquirements may change but being tricked into a change it's never have after that in any operation or any kind of conflict i was involved in. normally they would be a bit of give and take normally they would be add on expectations from the customer sometimes objectives are met by the p.m.c. not necessarily a visible clear or the specific objectives that the client wants and so that would be a process of negotiation it is a business off the dole. time something when p.m.c. is have to defeat an enemy on the ground they act like classic army stay start with an air onslaught then finish them on the ground one of the techniques pam says boy it's only in collateral yes when a pm seeing gauges and combat it's there's no difference between that and any other armed force engaging in combat the fact that they for some reason work for a civilian company a private company does what they are on a contract raise makes no difference once the bullets start flying the same tactics

apply and. in each and every case that i have been involved in that i know of the mcs took extraordinary measures to avoid collateral damage specifically the targeting or even the accidental harm to civilians in most cases they were they were greatly successful because they said that as an object of a a standing army. that attacks or bombs or target will consider collateral damage but in the political way it's not their prime concern whereas for the p.m.c. it is very much so often in the planning for most of your combat operations for a few see where i was involved. the effect and the impact on civilians was front and foremost in the planners minds and often times when there was a chance of civilians getting hurt the plan was not executed to us modify in order to avoid that. like any private business considers those things that is bad for

business having civilians hurt or killed or having property damage that shouldn't be damage is definitely bad for business so therefore of p.m.c. sometimes considers things in a different way than a standing military would. we'll take a short break right now we'll be back discussing outsourcing the war to a private companies it was called was class an adult programs africa and battering a gun for hire stay with us. when gold make good manufacture consent instead of public wealth. when the

running plus is protect themselves. with the famous merry go round lifts only the one percent. to ignore middle of the room six. million real new. u.s. veterans who come back from war often tell the same stories. were going after the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either they're already several generations of them so i just got this memo from the circular defense office says we're got to act and destroy the governments and seven countries in five years americans pay for the walls with them money on those without lives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing

to risk being killed for a war then surely we can risk some discomfort for uneasiness for. what politicians do something to. put themselves on the line. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. or somehow want to. have to go right to the press this is what the four three in the morning can't be good for. i'm interested always in the waters in the house. last question. did you know where you're. going to.

but you believe. that's. going to be. the. you know it's the e.u. . and we're back with classes had of programs africa security company and former

member of executive outcomes talking about his life as a ground for hire on the role of private military companies on the modern battlefield so you want convention bans to use of mercenaries while civilian governments use it as a dirty word and yet we see that time and time again where serious come to their rescue i say in sierra leone there for instance against boko haram exciter why are private military contractors more effective than un peacekeepers or national armies for that matter we're going to come down. you know both of makes but a priest refugee and that makes them so that's where the p.m.c. has an advantage over him. for example to a client of course in the quickest most efficient way also. we'll political considerations not so for much for most in the penny business principles are he

getting paid by the hour then you would make sure that you're as efficient as you can be in that hour so that's first and foremost where the pm sees can be more efficient then but of things i have to qualify that is no p.m.c. on this planet that can fight a major war that's not the point and that's never a way of p.m.'s he's comes in at this point in time and into the foreseeable future of pm sees provides a limited yet spoken efficient solution as part of a larger than broader solution for example you mention backcourt on the other nigeria and i happen to be a nigerian effort to understand what happened here the p.m.c. that came here was not contracted to win the war the p.m.c. that came here was contract that train a unit and to create that from scratch and then to go into combat and achieve limited objectives so as to show the nigerian but at the someone you should have to get them on the front foot to get some momentum going and to achieve certain

limited objectives i believe they were contracted initially only to come in and rescue the chibok girls you remember the girls that were kidnapped from their school and that mission been changed eventually became slightly broader in scope but they were never the idea that they would stay here for years and fight the war it was meant to be fought by the national army they were for a specific mission and that's why some people make the mistake and report that wrongly nigerian soldiers a brave and physically capable fight and quite willing to fight so that affected some of the best in the world i fought with them i can i can say that however their leadership has failed him possibly the ship as the chin the right that the logistical capability of the nigerian but at the end they training has been lacking has been lacking going so they had a p.m.c. can come in because the slack very quickly at least all the training standards and doctrine at the same time help them with their. logistical supply and procurement so that the right things of all the things that will method and make

a difference teach them how to use that help them to deploy that and then step back and step out of the picture so the pm sees it all is a limit that will be a very effective one. so nigeria continues its struggle with boko haram which is now seemingly split into two factions your former colleagues from meo have put the haraam on the wrong three years ago working for the nigerian government but saying that the group is still here where their efforts not out how would you assess. first of all if the full mario as you say executive alcoa's this band of the lone prime ago the company that was contracted to come and help the nigerian government . was a different company some of the posts and other things were the same but believe me very few on the whole this was not the from company at the from a bunch of people and i know because i met some of them and i spoke to them and obviously we interact on social media via e-mail and so forth. that they do

a good job they did a brilliant job they did it professionally well considering the constraints of time and money they were given just a part of the budget that they were promised and they were given a very short period of time as a matter of fact over the simba to mobilize and you know mobilization like that would be a logistical if and logistics means arms and ammunition nobody sells arms and ammunition over the assembly a private company everybody goes on holiday so they pulled it off and let it go myself and let it go because unfortunately due to financial constraints they confine themselves to base and then they left they withdrew out of nigeria it's a great pity that they were not given the opportunity to finish what they were contracted for i believe they would have saved hundreds of thousands of lines and nigeria's northeast would be in the politically far more stable condition than it is right now and like a lot of other militants in africa boko haram is operating in an area where it's is the to cross the border and flee into chalk nigeria cameron is facing too much

pressure can nigeria even deal with it on its own. no i don't think so nigeria needs a concentrated effort. it has to be collaborative effort between each year come over and chat at least and that year and all of these other countries needs help. most of them but at the hawke back to conventional days there are all the best of the structures the way they teach these soldiers and train them is a calm in a conventional manner unfortunately they are facing a counterinsurgency or an insurgency in the me and they need to adopt a counterinsurgency strategy and tactics and equipment and formations they need help with that they need to be assistance in order to restructure the material the manpower on the ground fantastic brave stronger physically capable they nationalistic they are out of their countries they will find that they need to be helped how to fight and they need to be equipped critic the untrained correctly. i read that back in sierra leone excited about comes so successful because it was

able to get help from local militias who knew the areas and the people in the side against alcohol rom do you see much trust between the military operating in the country's north east and the locals. well there's an important decision for governments that are faced with an enemy like all caught on has to make and that is whether through in the civilian help officially in some countries like seattle leo it was done successfully below call hunting societies was organized enough paramilitary group and a part of that was placed on the executive outcomes controlled and utilized video actively the same can happen here but first of all there's to be a political decision by the political leadership of the country are we going to arm civilians and put them in harm's way in order to supply and support the military if they do make that decision and however wide or limited that decision may be in those people can be invaluable as a matter of fact right now the fight is kind of to boycott and it's offspring by

local militias that are simply armed with shotguns and the occasional like a forty seven these people are fighting to protect their lands these villages and the people so they are effective in what they are doing in a counterinsurgency you know i think the scope for that to be organized well controlled well trained well mobilized and it will certainly add value to the hieron pledged allegiance to i says a long time ago but do you see and i says problems in nigeria start this as a real possibility at this stage or is it now more like a jihadi pipe dream. i'm sure there's a technical difference between isis i swell i'll call it on the silence what not. if you take a step back and you look at the problem it isn't a militant islamist problem they each have a unique character uniquely theirs and maybe slight differences in tactics and approach to the issue but it's

a common enemy and it's teachers all the way across the region now and it should be seen as that so i have no idea what that isis with established a cell here and called themselves that although they were there right on the back of the already established islamist but at the movement shia. for me there's an enemy and it is destabilizing the state is killing a lot of innocent people need to be stopped welcome hieron reportedly uses child soldiers and so did the revolutionary revolutionary united front the group you faced off with in sierra leone did you ever have to engage a unit that includes children i mean how tough is it for a soldier to face them on a battlefield is the person and his size the child first and the soldier second or vice versa. in africa or young people as being combatants for ever in sierra leone we found that the immediacy. it's really hard for the soldier in a complex situation in a battle situation to distinguish the age of the opponent all the seasons the

shutter with a gun firing at him and he's completely within he's what i said are these internationally has the right to defend himself well to attack that objective and kill that person turns out to be a twelve year old like a forty seven it's heartbreaking but unfortunately unavoidable it has happened and it will continue to happen because these are not standing armies these are not people that play by the rules yes they recruit children children are responsible for my age of atrocities and they follow a significant part of the combat force all of all caught on when i feel double tragedy there's nothing to be done to avoid that it's a long term solution kids belong in school not on their arms. you know conventional armies at this point have been going high tech with drone satellites other hardware in place is this high tech copper out also available to pm c.s. are they using the latest on the hatters or do you guys just make do with what you've got. no what astonishes me is military technology has gone over the

last three cradle to grave now the fact they're american so. in the in the continental united states and direct of their own to kill an enemy out there on the water to push a button is amazing p.m.c. is different we do not have access to that level or so first sophisticated armaments the base the p.m.c. cannot force a working g.p.s. . perhaps through the radio or satellite communications and perhaps a little bit better armaments then what do you know we ask but oftentimes it's an even match like a forty seven's heavy machine guns and weapons perhaps the odd helicopter or fixed wing aircraft or two that makes the difference. thank you very much for this interview different to have heard your inside or talking to. programmes africa and veteran of the executive outcomes discussing his life as a soldier for hire and the future of privatized war that's it for this edition of i

will see you next time.

breaking a promise trump wants regime change in venezuela old habits die hard also the trials in tribulations of roger stone will russia gain ever. u.s. veterans who come back from war often tell the same stories. were going after the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either they're already several generations of them so i just got this memo from the circular defenses office says we're got to act and destroy the government and seven countries in five years americans pay for the walls with them money others with their lives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war then surely we can risk some discomfort for uneasiness

for us. i've been saying the numbers mean something they matter the us of the with one trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crimes happen each day. eighty five percent of global wealth you want to be ultra rich eight point six percent market saw thirty percent rise last year some with four hundred to five hundred three per second per second and bitcoin rose to twenty thousand dollars. china is building a two point one billion dollar a i industrial park but don't let the numbers overwhelm. the only number you need to remember is one in one business show you can afford to miss the one and only boom bust. me let me let you go where you know you. because you don't know if he.

doesn't want to know most of the boast a billion euros a year was notable depending on the month but i believe you know. please don't believe the ways but i did my best religion as though i did. not. need any of this is. one of those missions and it. should be in school just minutes from now you know you. join me everything on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to get a little the politics small business i'm show business i'll see that.

it. never traces. the power struggle continues as president urges his troops to stay loyal to country self-proclaimed leader reveals he's working with sympathetic elements in the military to inside.

also coming up on the program this hour.