teaching religion i think that's a great place for or for the religious community and so in whatever paradigm of religion you practice and want to believe in that's what your religion should teach and so i think it's taking it out of the classroom and putting it in the churches and the supreme court that you know a while ago and i'm going to paraphrase a little bit but said you know the design of the constitution is really to teach religion and to have that be in the private sector and the private sector has the freedom to accomplish that mission so let's keep it there and i think if we look at you know if you really want to get into what the historical documents of the bible are i'm not sure that there were a lot of things a lot of christians would want to for school to be teaching the bible discusses a lot about sex and slavery and genocide and rape i'm not i don't want my school teaching my children that so my guess is john doesn't want his school teaching his children that either so let's keep religion the bible the qur'an in those

institutions of religion that can properly share those paradigms with the children and raise children with those beliefs that is congruity with that particular religion it's not a place within our public society gentlemen you've both mentioned other forms of religious text as well john mentioned that you know the koran allegedly is working its way into curriculums on what the bible is being singled out for particular haws treatment here was a question to both of you i mean do you think christianity holds a superior position in the united states. to other religions and should it is the case continue to do so and should it be treated. perhaps with a greater degree all of understanding and yes in in these public schools. but once again it was a given i wouldn't say what their founding fathers really to a person that would be part of part of the basic curriculum in fact the constitution is based largely primarily. more off the bible than about any other

document i mean even the idea that the president has to be born united states that's straight out of the bible that tells us to welcome strangers in your land but don't let them be your leader you know those that maybe they maybe kevin would be wise to study some of the biblical history that's rooted in the constitution so it's not just presented as a religious text the bible more than any other text is foundational to who we are as a people group. some of the mean you actually had a group that most liberty liberal in the world. somebody with a connection between this initiative and trumps immigration policy funnily enough i mean could this be called saying perhaps the the law a number of evangelical christians and all the christians that make up a lot chunk of voting sects. you know so far to shore up support for example for the wall and for other policies is it just the mold to his electoral base kevin

what do you think. i think the troubled ministration of the current administration is use a lot of diversion tactics when sort of you know when it's when something's coming up and i think the important thing for us i work with students every day we have hundreds of chapters of the cyclist in alliance all across the country and so for us that really does my specific is looking at education and what's the primary goal of education so you know let's stick to our core reading writing arithmetic history those sorts of things if we want to teach religion let that be taught and private spaces and religious spaces where they can choose to teach that paradigm that they want we want our schools to teach we don't want them to preach so. ok john lott and former republican member of the missouri senate kevin bolling executive director of the secular student alliance both of you thanks so much for coming on today great to get both of your takes. thank you thank you very much for this i will join us again at. for the latest global news update.

welcome to sophie and go and sophie shevardnadze when i says affiliate to sam laid upon nigeria mercenaries played a major role in pushing to terrorise spec is outsourcing the name of the game when it comes to modern conflicts will ask was class ends to mention director at programs africa and veteran soldier for hire. mercenaries have been the mainstay of african wars for decades decisive impact in sierra leone and nigeria and other

theaters of conflict and while the media portrays them as dangerous cash hungry brutes local government still has soldiers of fortune to get them out of tight spots. companies are more efficient than regular national on this continent private military contract is a viable solution to this regional conflict and could their actions help to bring peace to water on hotspots. called with glasses manging director at programs africa and executive outcomes veteran welcome to the show it's great to have you with us because you run your own security company now after having spent years in the special forces and then reached fame as a member of mercenary unit excited about comes there have been t.v. programmes about you a character based on you it was played by leonardo di caprio and blood diamond are you using all this fame and attention to bring more clients to promote the business

is a good thing. right so we all get older obviously and we followed the from the creative process let me just rectify something from the stuff not so much special forces units as airborne units close but not the same that's where i spent my military career and yes off of it i joined executive outcomes and i had a couple of years with them and after that i've formed my own company and then carried on from there and now for the last eleven twelve years it's been programs africa show that i'm the director quite happy to do normal commercial and domestic type of security work. but what about the media question do you like the media attention that help you get climate clients is it a good form but is a good thing for business no i don't like media shy and so many people in my in my business however i'm one of the older guys around and i feel that we should have a voice and if it's

a sensible said the questions we should answer them and we should speak out for our industry and also for that of the private military business because we feel it has a right to exist as a place of modern business and politics and somebody should answer those questions and be on the media so here i am reluctant to leave but quite willingly yes so why is it though because other mercenaries from your generation that i talk to and i've spoken to quite a few they said that the media always portrays them in a negative light do you feel that things as well do you feel that the public opinion is against you because you're considered a mercenary. well well thought out well balanced media will follow the story regardless unfortunately in the early days of executive outcomes. there was a a more sinister or a more politically driven agenda that planted stories this is well documented given

ballers of the search and the subsequent book on that. so to a degree executive outcomes was the victim of a smear campaign which is different from good reporting on the other side of the coin that we have enjoyed fair and honest reporting for example the b.b.c. reported on their presence in sierra leone that can ninety five ninety six ninety seven really favorable in correct manner because at the end of that conflict all parties that was in the conflict was tried or was investigated by the special court . and executive elton's was given a clean bill of health and this was well reported by the b.b.c. and it was picked up by the news media so yes there's good and bad we have to live with it that's that's all modern world that we live in so the private military companies on the continent like pilgrims africa that you're running because they're all based on people like you south african or are the original army veterans is

there a new generation coming to replace you guys are there young people interested in this kind of work. i maybe just make another distinction quickly pogroms africa is part of the british pogroms group and we have commercial security for well over a dish that we pay our taxes and we do nothing that can be considered to be but at the type of work. but yes to answer the second part of your question in private military companies they certainly ease a new generation in the back in the day it was an exclusive small group most commonly known as the so everybody knew each other and to a degree people understood that a protection of people and because they're small at the action in iraq and afghanistan that led to a need a whole generation of new young short soldiers that left the services and went into the private security work and many of them found their way into private military companies the market was flooded not necessarily with quality people many of the

guys were good but many of the guys were not so good and some of them would got kicked out of the military and also migrated towards a career in the private security industry so. to be honest modern security persons have to catch up with that in the world and properly bait. candidates and employees and go through the same process any corporate entity would be studies to determine if the candidate sitting in front of them for the job interview is in fact qualified is in fact experienced and he's infected aren't going for the job. so. i can see that you know. you're so experienced in the military world and in private military what how do your recruit people do you look for physical attributes first and foremost or mental strength or moral fiber how can you tell without combat task saying that a person is solid reliable hireable. well this again two sides to this this answer

the first is a commercial security business that is of international scale and it s. clients that a list of companies all over the world. you know there's a new international standard for security companies it's called the p a c one standard united nations that have been in this client facing it is all about compliance and so on of that process we have to be compliant with the way we recruit the office and know whether we recruit the security guard or whether we recruit the director so we go through the same recruitment process as any corporate entity would go through when it comes to p.m.c. or other let me let me delve down a little bit into the sort of slightly murkier world but at the contracts that was handed down by dodgy governments or by dodgy entities and it's word of mouth normally they would approach somebody that they trust or they would be they would be i have a solution it's to them by a entity that is what it is that offshore and it consists of former military

personnel and those guys with the word of mouth they would use social media or phone calls emails and they would gather the guards pretty quickly. in general they were they could people they know but if it's a large contract there's a lot of guys needed and obviously sometimes the quality slips a little bit. so you mentioned that your company mostly does defense where and he said that you make a distinction between companies that only do protection jobs and those that also go on this sensitive jing in this working on a company that can mount offensive operations and more fun to me chopper hopping after i don't know boko haram going to bush than escorting an oil executive from the airport to the rake and back. there's all sorts of differences between a commercial security company and a p.m.c. . a commercial security company delivers a wide range of services that borders on the just eco services outsourcing services

technical services for example the installation of security measures around a office of c.c.t.v. cameras fencing the lights it provides man guarding this is a god the front of office guy that sits at a security post or somebody that patrols a large yard with a sense now on the other hand the p.m.c. will often engage in combat and that for me is the difference p.m.c. is don't necessarily engage in combat p.m.c. use private military companies can get involved in the back end. but at the. proper but at least proper armies across the world in a support role but pm sees are sometimes also involved in combat training and then in some cases they get involved in combat and that for me is the main distinction if you ask me whether i miss the days that i left the army and i'm in part of a private company i think i can combat yes it's a brotherhood and you do miss. and it is special and the bonds that you form back then stays with you forever but as you can see i'm getting older and greyer now so

that is not my number one priority in life anymore every encounter customers that try to misrepresent your mission in any way you're interviewing south right there to work. oh no. it's the story it's the stuff that stories of fiction are made of to be honest when a p.m.c. engages with the customer. the contractual requirements and normally laid bare long before any work is done before any money changes hands during a mission or during a deployment or during the duration of a contract yes that acquirements might change but being tricked into a change it's never have f. and in any operation or any kind of conflict i was involved in. normally they would be a bit of give and take normally they would be add on expectations from the customer sometimes objectives are met by the p.m.c.

not necessarily a visible clear or the specific objectives that the client wanted so that would be a process of negotiation it is a business off the dole. time something when p.m.c. is have to defeat an enemy on the ground they act like classic army stay start with an air onslaught then finish them on the ground one of the techniques used to void similarly in collateral yes when a p.m.c. in gauges of combat it's there's no difference between that and any other armed force engaging in combat the fact that they for some reason work for a civilian company or private company does that they are on a contract but it makes no difference once the bullets start flying the same tactics apply and. in each and every case that i have been involved in that i know of the mcs extraordinary may harm civilians in most cases they were they were greatly successful because they said that as an object of a a standing army. that attacks or bombs or target will consider collateral damage

but in the political way it's not their prime concern whereas for the p.m.c. it is very much so often in the planning for most of your combat operations for a few see where i was involved. the effect and the impact on civilians was front and foremost in the planners minds and often times when there was a chance of civilians getting hurt the plan was not executed to us modify in order to avoid that. like any civilians hurt or killed or having property damage that shouldn't be damaged is definitely bad for business so therefore of p.m.c. sometimes considers things in a different way than a standing military would. we'll take a short break right now we'll be back discussing outsourcing gulf war two private companies was. graeme's africa and battering gun for hire stay with us.

join me every thursday. and i'll be speaking to give us a little bit. i'm sure i'll see you then.

and we're back with co-host clawson had of programs africa security company and former member of executive outcomes talking about his life as a gun for hire on the role of private military companies on the modern battlefield so you want convention bans the use of mercenaries while civilian governments use it as a dirty word and yet we see that time and time again mercenaries come to their rescue as saints lay on air for instance against boko haram exciter why are private military contractors more effective than un peacekeepers or national armies for that matter will occur and it comes down to a innovative mix but the three strategy and tactics mix with business principles so that's where the p.m.c. has an advantage over an army like recall that. they will respond for example to a client request in the quickest most efficient way possible political considerations not so for much almost in the planning business principles are you

getting paid by the hour that you would make sure that you are as efficient as you can be in the hour so that's first and foremost we're. p.m.c. can be more efficient but at these i have to qualify there is no p.m.c. on this planet that can fart a major war that's not the point and that's their way of fumes he's comes in at this point in time going to the foreseeable future pm sees provides a limited it's going to fission solution as part of a larger them. all the solution for example you mention backcourt on the other ninety eight and i happen to be a ninety eight and they happen to understand what happened here the p.m.c. that came here was not contracted through a window wall the p.m.c. that came here was contracted a unit and to create that from scratch and then to go into combat and achieve limited objectives so as to show the nigerian but at the someone you should have to

get them on the front foot to get some momentum going and to achieve certain limited objectives i believe they were contracted initially only to come in and the rescue the chibok go as you remember the girls that were kidnapped from their school and that mission been changed eventually became slightly broader in scope but that when they have a the idea that they would stay here for years and fight the war that is meant to be fought by the national army they were for a specific mission and that's why some people make the mistake and report the romney budget in soldiers a bright and physically capable flight i'm quite willing to fly so might affect some of the best in the world i fought with them i can i can say that i have a day leadership has failed and possibly the ship has the chain the right that the logistical capabilities are not cheated but at the end a training has been lacking has been lacking going so they had a p.m.c. can come in the cup to select very quickly at least all the training standards and doctrine at the same time help them with their logistical supply and procurement so

that i things of all the things that will method and make a difference teach them how to use that help them to deploy that and then step back and step out of this out of the picture so the pm sees it all is a limit that i'll be as a very effective one. in nigeria continues its struggle with alcohol around which is now seemingly split into two factions your former colleagues from meo have put the haraam on the wrong three years ago working for the nigerian government but saying that the group is still here where their efforts not out how would you assess. well first of all the full mario as you say psychedelic as this band of the long time ago the company that was contracted to come and help the nigerian government. was a different company some of the personnel of things were the same but believe me very few on the whole this was not the from company at the from a bunch of people and i know because i met some of them and i spoke to them and obviously we interact on social media via e-mail and so forth. that they do

a good job they did a brilliant job they just passed a key well considering the constraints of time and money they were given just a part of the budget that they were promised and they were given a very short period of time as a matter of fact over the simba to mobilize and you know mobilization like that would be a logistical if and logistics means arms and ammunition nobody sells arms and ammunition over the assembly the private company everybody goes on holiday so they pulled it off and let it go i say off and let it go because unfortunately due to financial constraints they confine themselves to base and then they left they withdrew out of nigeria it's a great pity that they were not given the opportunity to finish what they were contracted for i believe they would have saved hundreds of thousands of lines and nigeria's northeast would be in the politically far more stable condition than it is right now like a lot of other militants in africa boko haram is operating in an area where it's is it to cross the border and flee into chalk nigeria cameron is facing too much

pressure can nigeria even deal with it on its own. no i don't think so nigeria needs a concentrated effort. it has to be collaborative effort between each year commitment chat at least and much any and all of these other countries needs help. most of them but at the hawke back to conventional days there are all the best of the structures the way they teach these soldiers and train them is a come in a conventional manner unfortunately they are facing a counter-insurgency or an insurgency in the me and they need to adopt a counterinsurgency strategy and tactics and equipment and formations they need help with that they need to be assistance in order to restructure the material the manpower on the ground fantastic brave the stronger physically capable they nationalistic they are out of their countries they will find that they need to be helped how to find and they need to be equipped critic the untrained cricketing.

iraqis that back in sierra leone excited about comes so successful because it was able to get help from local militias who knew the areas and the people in the side against alcohol rom do you see much trust between the military operating in the country's north face and the locals. well that's an important decision for governments that are faced with an enemy like all caught on has to make and that is whether through in the civilian help officially in some countries like sierra leone it was done successfully below call hunting societies was organized enough paramilitary group and a part of that was placed on the executive outcomes controlled and utilized video actively the same can happen here but first of all there's to be a political decision by the political leadership of the country are we going to arm civilians and put them in harm's way in order to supply and support the military if they do make that decision and however wide or limited that decision may be in those people can be invaluable as a matter of fact right now the fight is kind of two ball caught on and it's

offspring by local militias that are some people with shotguns and the zero creational like a forty seven these people are fighting to protect they have lands they have villages and they have people so they are effective in what they are doing in a counterinsurgency you know i think the scope for that to be organized well controlled well trained well mobilized and it will certainly add value to the hieron pledged allegiance to i says a long time ago but do you see an isis progress in nigeria started as a real possibility at this stage or is it now more like a jihadi pipe dream. i'm sure there's a technical difference between isis i swell i'll concede on this island what not. if you take a step back and you look at the problem it isn't a militant islamist problem they each have a unique character uniquely theirs and maybe slight differences in tactics and

approach to the issue but it's a common enemy and it states has all the way across the region now and it should be seen as that so i have no idea where that isis with establish a cell here and called themselves that although they were there right on the back of the already established islamist but at the movement shia. for me there's an enemy and is destabilizing the state is killing a lot of innocent people need to be stopped welcome hieron reportedly uses child soldiers and so did the revolutionary revolutionary united front the group you faced off with in sierra leone did you ever have to engage a unit that includes children i mean how tough is it for a soldier to face them on a battlefield is the person and his size the child first soldier second or vice versa ok in africa or young people as being combatants in sierra leone we found that the immediacy. it's really hard for the soldier in a complex situation in

a battle situation to distinguish the age of the opponent all the seasons the shutter with a gun firing at him and he's completely within he's what i said are these internationally has the right to defend himself or to attack that objective and kill that person turns out to be a twelve year old with like a forty seven it's heartbreaking but unfortunately unavoidable it has happened and it will continue to happen because these are not standing armies these are not people that play by the rules yes they recruit children children are responsible for my age of atrocities and they form a significant part of the combat force all of all caught on when i show double tragedy there's nothing to be done to avoid that it's a long term solution kids belong in school not on their arms. you know conventional armies at this point have been going high tech with drone satellites other hardware in place is this high tech copper out also available to play mcs are they using the latest on the hatters or do you guys just make do with what you've got. you know

what those phone issues me use military technology has gone over the last day. the fact they're. in the continental united states and direct the drone to kill an enemy where on the wall to push both of them is amazing p.m.c. is different don't have access to that level or so first sophisticated almost the best the p.m.c. can hope for is a working g.p.s. . perhaps through the radio or satellite company and perhaps a little but not all moments then what do you know oftentimes it's a even match forty seven's if you machine guns and weapons perhaps you ought to helicopter all fixed wing aircraft or two that makes the. call was thank you very much for this interview different to have heard your inside or talking to. africa and better run up executive outcomes discussing his life was a soldier for hire on the future of privatized war that's it for this edition of i

will see you next time. and the question i guess is why why now why. america.

ministration announces new sanctions against venezuela targeting the state oil company and freezing billions in assets. traces. the power struggle continues as venezuela's president urges his troops to stay loyal the country's leader reveals he is working with sympathetic elements in the military to incite revolt.