no i know the truth by this now but in the period well i really sincerely thought that islam was a threat for the for the for our freedom in europe i know that just a few months ago another high profile member of the does freedom party your own club or and they pronounce his last name correctly converted to islam do you think gary a wilderness will ever come about i can only say. it's not up to me who is guided to islam and not but of course the best thing is not to curse him and to fight him about to make for him and maybe he will convert to islam you never know another member of the freedom party pace with a your. most in the since october last year and i hope that many more will follow i know that both in christian and in islamic tradition there is an expression something along the lines that god are. rules in mysterious ways but i wonder you

there is perhaps also certain psychological predisposition that may make these people to switch camps or abruptly it was not really. not for me and those for your we both. are educated people we are not like. people that just jump into conclusions so within twenty four hours or for both of us it was a journey i cannot speak for your home of course but i think in his position it was more or less the same if you start to study about this then you will find out that this not really stands for for me this was during the debt took me more than a year. with ups and downs with a lot of questions during this period so it was a struggle it was not like you wake up in the morning and then you think beignets that's become i may have not phrase it correctly but certainly it was a very. long journey and the journey from one and to another you went from hating islam to loving it do you think there is certain psychological predisposition

that leads people down that path oh was it just random. i cannot just about that because it's in the hands of in the hands of all of course who are who we've become most and not in my position and i don't think it was like a psychological point of view it was just a rest you know a journey for for knowledge and i started to learn about this with the intention to go for it both just i was interested in islam because you hear a lot about this but i just wanted to know more about it again if you study islam and your sincerely and your are open minded there you will find out that islam is not standing for oppression for terrorists and for intolerance quite the opposite now in many of your interviews you argued that there is a war going on against islam who is waging that war as the pressure worldwide and since nine eleven. there is a war against islam not with weapons at least not in western europe and the united states but there is a war from

a lot of people from all the political parties from the media and for some lobby groups and organizations they are promoting themselves and sending people that islam is a sore throat for a society and this is a war because no even in the netherlands people muslims and in particular on paper we owe at the same rights about the in reality the rights of muslim are on the pressure but if we consider the statistics the number of mosques political representation even media narratives muslim seem to be far more incorporated into the fabric of european lives today than ever aren't you perhaps exaggerating the oppression of muslims in europe in this e.u. fashion you used to exaggerate the danger presented by them yes but now i know more than i knew a couple of years ago and i was in this political participation and we talked about a lot of people in this period about how to fight islam and how to find muslims in

general again not in a physically way about. people are afraid that the muslim so the muslim. population is growing and they are gaining influence and their level of education it's growing and there are starting a business and there are different politics and in all the social platforms in society in general for a lot of people that is a threat it was never meant to be that the muslim immigrants would stay here but no the there are fourth generation they are here and they are not planning to leave unfortunately that's a threat to a lot of people well according to the general intelligence and security service islamic extremism in that the lens has transformed from virtually invisible ink you and all pen and the widespread phenomenon with several hundred supporters and thousands of sympathizers do you agree with this a sudden assessment because it seems that some of those fears that people may have

of islam there are based on a on the objective trends or maybe i should have said that some of the fears that people have towards particular group of muslims on the real threats of course well there's always and you have as an african nation there's always a small percentage of people that are extreme. left of the to our society you can be extreme in the snow in fighting against all the relations with is not the purpose of islam islam is that the religion about extremism is not islam to the other sides for example assimilation is also a form of extremism so you have to stand for your failures and extremism is not a part of. people who within this this small percentage we're talking about maybe one or two percent that are aggressive and misguided and don't understand this islam we have to of course we have to have to deal with and in

a legal way but but i think it would also agree that certain strands of islam are more prevalent than others and i think. what we see in many muslim countries is an effort to preserve indigenous islam protected from foreign influences particularly the saudi influence after a long record of what i would call predatory religious practices do you believe in diversity within islam and do you think it should be protected. diversity of islam in my opinion and again i'm not a scholar on the course about islam there is only one this lama and the only islam that is the islam of the to be its a tolerant and open mind is religion that has respect for other religions and other people and for no muslims and islam stands not for violence again the small group of people that are presenting themselves as muslims you can doubt if they are most interest not up to me to judge about that of course but. they are we know for we have some we have done some research that some of these people actually are froma

political parties and organizations that are actually fighting islam so if they are really muslims and if they are fighting from a most same. perspective that is something you can question about well let me pose a question that you may not like but i still want to ask you because the mosque in the hague where or where you converted the mosque has been mentioned by the dutch and in television service as a sell off the leaning community i'm sure you know it has a track record of. vitriolic speech they were preachers like for example if i was janae the who called for death or disease to people who criticized islam do you think that kind of speech should be allowed in the most particularly in your own mosque well again the this person is not involved in this mosque anymore and we're talking about the period of ten years ago so things have changed

even in this mosque and they are can contribute into society in a very positive way they're open minded and they are for buddies welcome to face at this most so we are talking about a different period but then on the other hand even if you call yourself salathiel whatever you cold to yourself or other groups within islam as long as you are within the law within the low you are free to talk on to people about religion as low as you don't go for. violence and for for intolerance . slowness i know and i'm not a muslim for that long most of us six years but i have never noticed anyone in this mosque. calling for a aggression or attacks or terrorists and quite the contrary but they are very expressive and they are expressing themselves against extremists and i think that's a good point that particular preacher to watch junaid stated during a sermon that bow down dodge m.p.i. yon harzi a leader who collaborated to be a feel one go off on he is

a film submission he ask ally to blind her side to give her a brain cancer to give her tongue cancer do you understand how people can hear that oh read that and think that this is not religion of peace to me yes but then again that's what we're talking about a long time ago he was only fired in two thousand and twelve from what i know and he wasn't fired on religious grounds he was fired because of five minutes straight if. i don't know about that i know what the we're talking about the period that is seventy years ago even before it was converted to islam. are his words at the look my words but again he has never been sentenced for for this if there is. there is no he has never been to jail or whatever so we are still living in a democracy and if he is stuffing about through you know over a certain legal lines and you have to because thirty two you know or to do

something about it. but then again he's not working in this most anymore so he is not for it the same thing us must anymore well mr brown don't we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next the ball different clubs on one hand it is logical to go from fields where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and the fresh perspective i'm used to surprising. or not if you think. i'm going to talk about

football not be or else you can think i was going to go. by the way ways of the slide here. centers financial survival guide all five i process on a teacher's. face was almost five. as of last summer my ex from the future crack up was kaiser. what politicians do something. they put themselves on the line to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president i'm sure. most somewhat want to be rich. but you going to be prosperous like them before three in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters in the. west sydney.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

welcome back to worlds apart with arnold to warn president of the european dawa. mr one day one before the break i mentioned the the former dutch m.p. ion the harsh reality who made an opposite transition to yours from a practicing muslim to an atheist and a critic although not a hater of islam do you respect doug journey of course of course again a muslim is a tolerant islam is a tolerant a religion of course it's a sarah thing if someone is leaving islam or choosing a vote they are free to do that we are living in a free country and democracy. and also from the from the perspective of islam you have to accept people that death of course we have to do try to do something you know try to convince people by talking with them and you know exchange

information maybe you can get them back to the to islam about the again this is not in our hands it's in the hands of a law now islam has long had a somewhat complicated relationship with the freedom of speech and expression as they are defined in the west and i know that in that the lens and particularly these debate became far more polarized after a series of murders of people who were critical of islam particularly if. filmmaker theo van gogh fifteen years later do you think the dutch society has been able to find a proper balance between the religious and non-religious expression well unfortunately things will not go in the right direction at this moment in the netherlands and not only in the us and the rest of western europe to see the far right and for intolerant political parties are growing i think that it's a great concern. because some minorities in europe in the netherlands for

example the jewish minority the is the muslim majority they are both under attack. this very thin layer of tolerance that we are supposed to have in the in the nuns as it's fading away in the fairy fairy foster way and this is a great concern definitely and we know all the. well that long ago sixty eighty years ago we had the same situation then about the jews and no the muslims the muslim minorities in the same position the basics and it's worrying and yet you as a representative hope that the muslim minority has been able to return to politics you now represent an islamic political party in the city council of the hague and it looks really like a part of a broader trend than the one in the west when expressly muslim openly muslim politicians are taking a bigger political taking on the bigger political role is there any difference in

your view between being a secular politician as he used to be back in the your non-religious years and being a muslim politician no there's no the big difference you have christian politicians we have most in politics since. our party protection and part of the unity is the only real islamic party. there are all the parties that they call themselves islamic best but there are basically such you are parties which is not a problem of course but i don't think it is a problem issue reported titian and your background is. if it is a jewish or christian or a muslim. i don't thing that doesn't make any difference we are all trying to contribute to society in a post where the reason i'm asking is because politics is usually thought of as a field associated with a lot of ethical and moral compromises have you ever been in a position where you felt that your beliefs contradicted with what was politically

expedient. they situations they have been sometimes we are trying to base our political strategy and the way we are knowing you know we are politicians and we are basing our political few on the koran and so no so if things are not in line with that for example during voting then we will not follow the revolt against it or normally that is not the problem but then again islam is is a part of the dutch a society with over a million one point two million muslims in the netherlands the majority of the people they might come in my city in the hague from the west on the rich and eighty percent of them is muslim so we are in society and we are part of society and we have the right to express ourselves and of course sometimes you have to base with other political parties that's part of democracy well if you are ever put in their position do you think you could deal with the dutch freedom party i know you disagree on religious issues but other any other issues where your political

positions overlap no it's not really not really maybe some of them if it's both you know for example the way we treat people in the us a youth and family. you know that the gap between the very rich people amount of respect and a lot of people that are not having that much money so we have some problems that be both. try to do to fight and to deal with but in general no there are not really because they are an intolerant party promoting a hate and intolerance and we. are at the party we are trying to build bridges and bring people together so that this quite the opposite now the far right parties often obsess about what they see as the possible islamic takeover of europe but i heard you say i heard your voice an opposite concerned that islam may disappear

from europe within the next twenty to forty years. if muslims moderate muslims don't take a stand on you both relying on the desire and fear it's you attract more supporters islam is a moderate religion so there are no moderate muslims or extreme muslims and yes muslims but the thing is that because we are a threat for society for the for a lot of people in certain positions they don't like muslims to be like the way it's supposed to be from the point the fish and they are trying to create the so-called modern muslims or or or or western muslims that is a threat because i said earlier that extremism for example i-s. is a threat but the other side the other way is also. leaving islam and leaving and trying to create their own religion and goal that they say that it's also a danger and we have to stay in the middle because as i said before islam is the

moderates religion well actually leading me perfectly to my next question because by all estimates the number of muslims in europe is on the increase but you warned about the strengthening of the so-called western islam a younger generation who believe an alibi to allow themselves for example a glass of wine or who don't pray five times a day is it really up to you or anyone else on this planet to determine who is a good muslim and who is not no of course not is not up to other muslims to decide not to judge if someone is a muslim who are not it's up to allah we have to respect that and i do of course. we also have to warn especially the young generation the young people for the dangers of this so-called western islam where you're supposed to drink a whole you go to a bar you go through described a cure all these things that is. a common in western countries but the good thing is other especially the young generation you're talking about the young generation they are just getting back to the to the islam where it reached. what

the supposed to be this good thing and they are leaving those this so-called western islam from their parents and maybe the first and second generation now you also spoke about radicalization as one of the major threats to islam where do you personally draw the line between the hardline by nonviolent version of islam the extremist one. expect again the extremism is not. allowed within islam. i said before islam or some other insulation so there is no place for extremists but there is a right of course if people want to be like i can call it maybe an unorthodox muslim orthodox christians and also those joes. they should be free to do that we live in a free society in the work received on the wrist freedom of religion mr and mr brown the reason i'm asking about this is because you know there are a number of countries saudi arabia is one of them where you don't have a cure yourself what kind of islam you practice your i when i go there even as

a non muslim i have to comply with the rules are imposed on me there absolutely no tolerance of freedom in dot regard so that's why i'm asking where that line lies be to be in hardline orthodox islam or if you want to call it. an extremist one because some would say that killing people for that own choices is an extreme is saudi arabia does it as a as a state policy first of all we're living in saudi arabia later in the netherlands and we are minority in that i do you talked about all of before so you surely see muslim says people around the world rather than confined to a single country but then again within this law there is no place for extremism but for example people are calling muslims these days that are praying far far far farms today that are doing the ramadan go to show how much wearing a job. some people call that extremism but that is not extremist and that islam is

a supposed to be and if people want to perform their religion in that way they should be free to do that i'm talking extremism in my point of view is creating hate intolerance judging other people because they are not a muslim or they are from another religion and i semitism oh these things are not part of islam and but they are by some media. and politicians they tell people that is islam but it has nothing to do with islam islam is a peaceful religion well mr van dorn i think we probably disagree on the definition of extremism here because having every ported from the syrian frontlines i see anyone who went to syria to join isis as an extremist but you back in two thousand and fourteen sad that we should not label guys who have been to syria as dangerous you said that you know a number of people who have returned they may be disillusioned but they are not dangerous and obviously they didn't go there to plant trees they went there to

fight and kill how would you know if they're dangerous or extremist or not well again. it's just one of the forms of extremism that we should not promote of course in my opinion again i'm not a scholar but i guess it's nothing to do with islam. and this is where recreated by other organizations will be no we don't have to talk about that. of course some of them can be dangerous and if they come back to the no less so to other western european countries they should be monitored and if they have. committed crimes against humanity or worse or crimes they have to go to a church and the you know we have a legal system but we have to monitor these people but to say oh all of them including their wives and innocent children so often three four five six years old you cannot say they are terrorists and if they are sincere and they feel sorry for what they have done you have to come back you have to go to stand for george and to you have to be monitored but these people need a chance they need

a second chance like everybody else you mentioned wives and children and according to the dutch authorities there are they maybe more than one hundred forty five children of foreign fighters growing up within the i says held territory most of them under the age of four or five and the dutch intelligence is pretty open stating that they believe that those children may pose. a future risk for the country they also almost never fail to mention that most of them were born in syria or iraq should that mean that the netherlands has no responsibility for those kids and that those kids should be dumped in syria and nobody should take care of them. of course to the say that. the age of three four five years that they are a threat or so sorry that's that's ridiculous of course it's ridiculous. that's creating hate that is creating untold amounts. of course these people are in the in

syria or iraq or and turkey or whatever where they are and some with these threats you erode refugee camps. we are again we are we are a democracy we are we are a legal society and they have the right to come back but then again if they have done something that is against the rules if they have killed people or committed war crimes they have to stand before a judge and they will be convicted if they are convicted also they have done their sentence they are free and they should be guided. well if they are still with threats in the eyes of some people who are already in the nation's agencies again they should be among them and that's also another very legal weight of dealing with it because people are granted certain human rights and certain legal rights and i think no bureaucracy can the joy just on its own accord anyway mr one don't we have to leave it here but i really appreciate you sharing your perspective with us today thank you very much you're welcome. i encourage our viewers to you keep this

conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on worlds apart. when lawmakers manufacture consent to instant of public wealth. when the reaming closest to protect themselves. when the financial merry go round lifts only the one percent told. the time

we can all middle of the room signals. the real news is. the world. after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next the pope the ball different clubs on one hand it is logical to stay in the home field where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and a fresh perspective and i'm used to surprising people and i saw why not if you think. i'm going to talk about football narvi or else you can think i was going to go. by the way ways of that slide here. what do you do before you came here where did you work before you came here when you live well death row and in many us states

capital punishment is still practiced convicted prisoners can spend years waiting for execution and most of the time the victims' families they are very much in favor the death penalty there are some people because of what they did have given up the right to live among us some are even proven innocent after years on death row and how many more exonerations is the kind. before we as a society realize that this is not working and we actually do something about.

it. the. vehicles are set on fire on the venezuelan border with colombia as rioters tried to break through military barricades the president maduro cuts ties with go to accusing it of fueling the standoff over u.s. aid supplies. also this hour more than eleven thousand yellow vests protesters flood the streets of france yet again for a fifteenth weekend of antigovernment on the rest.