that i was not really informed about the islam in the past and i'm happy to be a muslim of course now since two thousand and thirteen. that was a long journey took me over a year but if you study islam sincerely with an open mind it will find that actually it's a very peaceful. religion that for what i read about your spiritual journey your interest in islam was particularly sparked by your relationship with gareth builders and he's film fitna which portrayed muslims as intolerant and bound on the world domination do you find it ironic i do you perhaps see it as. part of alice planned that you pass to faith would be inspired by bigotry yes well in that period i sincerely believe that islam was i thought for a society that muslims are oppressing women promoting terrorism and i felt it my responsibility and the responsibility of our political party to warn people about islam so again this was like of the election and well no i know the truth by the

snow but in the period well i really sincerely thought that islam was a threat for the for the for our freedom in europe i know that just a few months ago another high profile member of the does freedom party your own clever and they pronounce his last name correctly converted to islam do you think gary a wilderness will ever come about i can only say. it's not up to me who is guided to islam and not but of course the best thing is not to curse him and to fight him about to make for him and maybe he will convert to islam you never know another member of the freedom party pace with a your. most in the since october last year. in islamic tradition there is an expression something along the lines perhaps also certain psychological predisposition that may be. make these people to switch camp so abruptly

it was not really a not for me and those for your we both. are educated people we are not like. people that just jump into conclusions so within twenty four hours or for both of us it was a journey i cannot speak for your home of course but i think in his position it was more or less the same if you start to study about this then you will find out where the snow really stands for for me this was during the debt took me more than a year. with ups and downs with a lot of questions during this period so it was a struggle it was not like you wake up in the morning and then you think beignets that's become i may have the journey for a while and to another you went from hating islam to loving it do you think there is certain psychological predisposition that leads people down that path how was it just random are going to judge about that because it's in the hands of in the hands

of all of course who it would become most and not in my position and i don't think it was like a psychological point of view it was just a rest you know a journey for for knowledge and i started to learn about just on that with the intention to go for it both just i was interested in islam because you hear a lot about this but i just wanted to know more about it again if you study islam and your sincerely and your are open minded then you will find out that islam is not standing for oppression for terrorists and for intolerance quite the opposite now in many of your interviews you argued that there is a war going on against islam who is waging that war as the pressure worldwide and since nine eleven. there is a war against islam not with weapons at least not in western europe and in the united states where there is a war from a lot of people from other political parties from the media and for some lobby groups and organizations they are. promoting them so. many people that

islamists a sore throat for a society and this is a war because no even in the netherlands people muslims and in particular on paper we all have the same rights about in reality the rights of most are on the pressure but if we consider the statistics the number of mosques political representation even media narratives muslim seem to be far more incorporated into the fabric of european lives today than ever aren't you perhaps exaggerating the oppression of muslims in europe in d.c. fashion you used to exaggerate the danger presented by them yes but now i know more than i knew a couple of years ago and i was in this political participation we talked about a lot of people in this period about how to fight islam and how to find muslims in general and not in a physically way about. people are afraid the muslims so the muslim population is

growing and they are gaining influence and their level of education it's growing and there are starting a business and there are different politics and in all the social platforms in society in general for a lot of people that is a threat it was never meant to be that the muslims immigrants would stay here but no the thirty fourth generation they are here and they are not planning to leave unfortunately not this threat to a lot of people well according to the general intelligence and security service islamic extremism in that the lens has transformed from virtually invisible into and all pan am the widespread phenomenon with several hundred supporters and thousands of sympathizers do you agree with this a sudden assessment because it seems that some of those fears that people may have of islam there are based on the on objective trends or maybe i should have said that some of the fears. that people who are so there's always and you have as an

african nation there's always a small percentage of people that are extreme. the leftover to our society you can be extreme in no in fighting against all the relations with is not the purpose of islam islam is that the religion about extremism is not islam to the other sides for example assimilation is also a form of extremism so you have to stand for your failures and extreme low percentage we're talking about maybe one or two percent that are aggressive and misguided and don't understand this islam we have to of course we have to have to deal with and in a legal way but but i think it would also agree that certain strands of islam a more prevalent than others and i think what we see in many muslim countries is an effort to preserve indigenous islam and protect it from foreign influences particularly the saudi influence after a long record of what i would call predatory religious practices do you believe in

diversity within islam and do you think it should be protected. diversity of islam in my opinion and again i'm not a scholar on the course about islam there is only one this law and the only islam that is the islam of the to be is a tolerant and open mind is religion that has respect for other religions and other people and for no muslims and islam stands not for violence again the small group of people that are presented themselves as muslims you can doubt if they are most interest not up to me to judge about that of course but. they are we know for we have some we have done some research that some of these people actually are froma political parties and organizations that are actually fighting islam so if they are really muslims and if they are fighting for a most. perspective that is something you can question them on well let me pose a question that you may not like but i still want to ask you because the mosque in

the hague where or where you converted the mosque has been mentioned by the dutch and in television service as a salafi leaning community i'm sure you know it has a track record of. vitriolic speech there were a preachers like for example if i was just made to who called for death or disease to people who criticised islam do you think that kind of speech should be allowed in the most particularly in your own mosque well again this person is not involved in this mosque anymore and we're talking about the period of ten years ago so things have changed even in this mosque and they are can contribute into society in a very positive way they are open minded and they are a body is welcome to face at this most so we are talking about a different period but then on the other hand even if you call yourself salathiel whatever you cold to yourself or other groups within islam as long as you are within the law within the low you are free to talk on to

people about religion as low as you don't go for. violence and for for intolerance . slowness i know and i'm not a muslim for that long most of us six years but i have never noticed anyone in this mosque. calling for a aggression or attacks or terrorists and quite the contrary but they are very expressive and they are expressing themselves against the extremists and i think that's a good point that particular preacher was junaid stated during a sermon that bow down dodge m.p.i. yon harzi a leader who collaborated to be a feel one go off on he is a film submission he ask ally kewl blind her side to give her a brain cancer to give her tongue cancer do you understand how people can hear that oh read that and think that this is not religion of peace to me yes but

then again that's this we're talking about a long time ago he was only fired in two thousand and twelve from what i know and he wasn't fired on religious grounds he was fired because if administrate if. i don't know about that i know what the we're talking about the period that is seventy years ago even before it was converted to islam. for for this in there is. there is no he is never been to jail or whatever so we are still living in a democracy and if he is stepping about you know over a certain legal lines and you have to look at thirty two you know or to do something about it. but then again he's not working in this most anymore so he's not representing us in a mosque anymore well mr brown don't we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. from

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or. all my dough from sixty metal. just far off for isis fighters. boarding a philippine naval ship. by the way the time now for me ned now ninety dollars. dollars still don't know what's waiting for them. since it will. be new and i am

not sure. it's take it out on. the man i'm the mom. welcome back to worlds apart with our new want to warn president of the european. mr want to want to before the break i mentioned the the former dutch m.p. ion the harsh reality who made an opposite transition to yours from a practicing muslim to an atheist and a critic although not a hater of islam do you respect doug journey of course of course again a muslim is a tolerant islam is a religion of course it's a separate thing if someone is leaving islam or choosing a boss but they are free to do that we are living in a free country and democracy. and also from the from the perspective of islam

you have to accept people that death of course we have to do try to do something you know try to convince people by talking with them and you know exchange information maybe you can get them back to the to islam about the again this is not in our hands it's in the hands of. now islam has long had a somewhat complicated relationship with the freedom of speech and expression as they are defined in the west and i know that in the end that the lens and particularly this debate became far more polarized after a series of murders of people who were critical of islam particularly filmmaker theo van gogh fifteen years later do you think the dutch society has been able to find a proper balance between the religious and non-religious expression well unfortunately things are not go in the right direction at this moment in the netherlands and not only in the u.s. and the rest of western europe to see that far it's unfair intolerant political

parties are growing i think that it's a it's a great concern. because minorities in an. in europe in the netherlands for example the jewish minority the is the muslim majority they are both on their attack. this very thin layer of tolerance that we are supposed to have in the in the netherlands as it's fading away in a fairy fairy foster way and this is a great concern that definitely and we know all that. long ago sixty eighty years ago we had the same situation then about the juice i know the muslims the muslim minorities in the same position the basics and it's as worrying and yet you as a representative hope that the muslim minority has been able to return to politics you now represent an islamic political party in the city council of the hague and it looks really like part of a broader trend than the one in the west when expressly muslim openly muslim

politicians are taking a bigger political taking on the bigger political role is there any difference in your view between being. a secular politician as he used to be back in your mill and religious years being a muslim politician no there's not a big difference you have christian politicians we have muslim politicians. our party protection and part of the unity is the only real islamic party. there are all the parties they call themselves islamic best but there are basically such inner parties which is not a problem of course but i don't think it is a problem issue reported titian and your background is its relation if it is a jewish or christian or a muslim. i don't thing that doesn't make any difference we are all trying to contribute to society in a post if way the reason i'm asking is because politics is usually thought of as

a field associated with a lot of ethical and moral compromises have you ever been in a position where you felt that your beliefs contradicted with what was politically expedient. they situations they have been sometimes we are trying to base our political strategy and the way we are knowing you know we are going to titian's and we are basing our political few on the koran and so no so if things are not in line with that for example during voting then we will not follow the revolt against it or normally that is not the problem but then again islam is is a part of the dutch a society with over a million one point two million muslims in the netherlands the majority of the people in my come in my city in the hague from the west on origin eighty percent of them is muslim so we are in society and we are part of society and we have the right to express ourselves and of course sometimes you have to base with other

political parties that's part of democracy well if you are ever put in their position do you think you could deal with the dutch freedom party i know you disagree on religious issues but other any other issues where your political positions overlap no it's not really not really maybe some of them if it's about you know for example the way we treat people in the us a youth and family. you know that the gap between the very rich people amount of respect and a lot of people that are not having that much money so we have some problems that be both. try to do to fight and to deal with but in general no there are not really because they are an intolerant party promoting a hate and intolerance and we. are at the party we are trying to build bridges and bring people together so that this quite the opposite now the far right parties often obsess about what they see as the possible islamic takeover of europe but i

heard you say i heard your voice an opposite concerned that islam may disappear from europe within the next twenty to forty years. if muslims moderate muslims don't take a stand on you both relying on the exam and fear its you attract more supporters islam is a moderate religion so there are no moderate muslims or extreme muslims and yes muslims but the thing is that because we are a threat for society for the for a lot of people in certain positions they don't like muslims to be like the way it's supposed to be from the point the fist and they are trying to create the so-called other muslims or or or or western muslims. that is a threat because i said earlier that extremism for example i guess is a threat but the other side the other way is also he's. leaving islam and leaving

and trying to create your own religion and call that they say that it's also a danger and we have to stay in the middle because as i said before islam is the moderates religion well actually leading me perfectly to my next question because all i asked them at the number of muslims in europe is on the increase but you warned about the strengthening of the so-called western islam a younger generation who believe an alibi to allow themselves for example a glass of wine or who don't pray five times a day is it really up to you or anyone else on this planet to determine who is a good muslim and who is not no of course not it's not up to other muslims to decide to judge if someone is a muslim or not it's up to allah we have to respect that and i do of course. we also have to warn especially the young generation the young people for the dangers of this so-called western islam where you're supposed to drink a whole you go to a bar you go through described a cure all these things that is. a common in western countries but the good

thing is other specially the young generation you're talking about the young generation they are just getting back to the to the islam where it reached. what the supposed to be this good thing and they are leaving those this so-called western islam from their parents and maybe the first and second generation now you also spoke about radicalization as one of the major threats to islam where do you personally draw that line between the hardline by nonviolent version of islam the extremist one. expect again extremism is not. allowed within islam. i said before islam is the motivation so there is no place for extremism but there is a right of course if people want to be like a call it may be an unorthodox muslim orthodox christians and also the juice. they should be free to do that we live in a free society in the work received on the wrist freedom of religion mr and mr

vandeleur the reason i'm asking about this is because you know there are a number of countries saudi arabia is one of them where you don't have a cure yourself what kind of islam you practice your i when i go there even as a non muslim i have to comply with their rules reach are imposed on me they're absolutely no tolerance of freedom and dot free card so that's why i'm asking where that line lies be to be in hardline orthodox islam or if you want to call it. an extremist one because some would say that killing people for that own choices is an extreme is saudi arabia does it as a as a state policy first of all we're living in saudi arabia later in the netherlands and we are minority in that i do you talked about all of before so you surely see a muslim says people within islam there is no place for extremism but for example people are calling most times these days that are praying five times but the five times a day that are doing the ramadan go to show how much wearing

a job. some people call that extremism but that is not extremists and that islam is a supposed to be and if people want to perform their religion in that way they should be free to do that i'm talking extremism in my point of view is creating hate intolerance judging other people because they are not a muslim or they are from another religion and i said to some oh these things are not part of islam about they are by some media and politicians they tell people that is islam but it has nothing to do with islam islam is a p. no relation well mr van dorn i think we probably disagree on the definition of extremism here because having every poured it from the syrian frontlines i see anyone who went to syria to join isis as an extremist but you back in two thousand and fourteen sad that we should not label guys who have been to syria as dangerous you said that you know a number of people who have returned they may be disillusioned but they are not

dangerous and obviously they didn't go there to plant trees they went there to fight and kill how would you know if they're dangerous or extremist or not well again. it's one of the forms of extremism that we should not promote of course in my opinion again another scholar but i guess it's nothing to do with islam. and this has already created by other organizations will be you know we don't have to talk. of course some of them can be dangerous and if they come back to the no less and to other western european countries they should be monitored and if they have. committed crimes against humanity or worse or crimes they have to go to a church and the you know we have a legal system but we have to monitor these people but to say oh all of them including their wives and innocent children so often three four five six years old you cannot say they are terrorists and if they are sincere and they feel sorry for what they have done you have to come back you have to go to stand for george and to

do you have to be monitored but these people need a chance they need a second chance like everybody else you mentioned wives and children and according to the dutch authorities there are they maybe more than one hundred forty five children of dutch foreign fighters growing up within the i says held territory most of them under the age of four or five and the dutch intelligence is pretty open stating that they believe that those children may pose a future risk for the country they're also almost never fail to mention that. most of them were born in syria or iraq should that mean that the netherlands has no responsibility for those kids and that those kids should be dumped in syria and nobody should take care of them. of course to the say that. the age of three four five years that they are a threat. that's that's ridiculous of course it's ridiculous. that's creating hate

that is creating untold amounts. of course these people are in the in syria or iraq or and turkey or whatever where they are and some with these threats you're a refugee camps. we are again we are we are a democracy we are we are a legal society and they have the right to come back but then again if they have committed war crimes they have to stand before a judge and they will be convicted if they are convicted also they have done their sentence they are free and they should be guided. well if they are still with threats in the eyes of some people who are already in intelligence agencies again they should be among them and that's also another very legal weight of dealing with it because people are granted certain human rights and certain legal rights and i think no bureaucracy can the with joy just on its own accord anyway mr wonder we have to leave it here but i really appreciate your sharing your perspective with us today thank you very much you're welcome force bush to syria same place same time

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