hello and welcome to worlds apart as far right parties obsess about the danger islam presents to the western lifestyle some muslim mix callers are increasingly concerned about the danger the western lifestyle presents to islam our guest today argues that if moderate muslims don't step up their game within the next twenty to forty years islam may be gone from europe and both camps are relying on the inside track supporters well to discuss that i'm now joined by our in the front door and a former member of the dutch freedom party who converted to islam and now represents the party if unity and islamic party in the hague city council is there one day and it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time and i'm good to be here now you obviously have a very dramatic political and spiritual transition from what some would call and islamophobia and islamic one but before we talk about what drew you to islam let me

ask what attracted you to the dutch freedom party yes well first of all. people are talking about islam and western europe in the united states and other parts of the world and they are misguided about this because they hear a lot of negative stories in the media from other politicians and so did i blame myself that i was not really informed about islam in the past no i'm happy to be a muslim of course now since two thousand and thirteen. that was a long journey took me over a year but if you study islam sincerely with an open mind it will find. a very peaceful. religion that for what i read about your spiritual journey your interest in islam was particularly sparked by your relationship with gareth builders and he's film fitna which portrayed muslims as intolerant and bound on the will dominate. do you find it ironic i do perhaps he'd as. part of alice plan that you

pass to faith would be inspired by bigotry yes well in death burial i sincerely believe that islam was a threat for society that muslims are oppressing women promoting terrorism and i felt it my responsibility and the responsibility of our political party to warn people about islam so again this was like of the lurch and well now i know the truth by this now but in the period well i really sincerely thought that islam was a threat to forgo another high profile member of the does freedom party your own clever and they pronounce his last name correctly converted to islam do you think gary a wilderness will ever come about i can only say. it's not up to me who is guided to islam and not but of course the best thing is not to curse him and to fight him about to make do for him and maybe he will convert to islam you never know another

member of the freedom party pace with a your. most in the since october last year. i hope that many more will follow i know that both in christian and islamic tradition there is an expression something along the lines that god are. rules in mysterious ways but i wonder you there is perhaps also certain psychological predisposition that may make these people to switch camps or abruptly it was not really a not for me and therefore your we both. are educated people we are not like. people that just jump into conclusions so within twenty four hours or for both of us it was a journey i cannot speak for your home of course but i think in his position it was more or less the same if you start to study about the slum then you will find out where the slum really stands for for me this was during the test took me more than

a year. with ups and downs with a lot of questions during this period so it was a struggle it was not like you wake up in the morning and i think beignets that's become i may have not phrase it correctly but certainly it was a very. long journey and the journey for a while and to another you went from hating islam to loving it do you think there is certain psychological predisposition that leads people down that path oh was it just random. i'm going to just about that because it's in the hands of in the hands of a lot of course who has become muslim and not in my position and i don't think it was like a psychological point of view it was just a rest you know a journey for for knowledge and i started to learn about this on the with the intention to go for it both just i was interested in islam because you hear a lot about this and i just wanted to know more about it again if you study islam and your sincerely and your are open minded there you will find out that islam is

not standing for oppression for terrorists and for intolerance quite the opposite in nine eleven. there is a war against islam not with weapons at least not in western europe and the united states but there is a war from a lot of people from all the political parties from the media and for some lobby groups and organizations they are. promoting them so. many people that islam assess the threat for a society and this is a war because no even in the netherlands people muslims and in particular on paper we owe at the same rights about the in reality the rights of most are on the pressure even media narratives muslim seem to be far more incorporated into the fabric of european lives today than ever aren't you perhaps exaggerating the oppression of muslims in europe in d.c. fashion you used to exaggerate the danger presented by them yes but now i know more

than i knew a couple of years ago and i was in this political participation we talked about a lot of people in this period about how to fight islam and how to find muslims in general again not in a physically way about. people are afraid that the muslim so the muslim population is growing and they are gaining influence and their level of education it's growing and there are starting a business and there are different politics and in all the social platforms in society in general for a lot of people that is a threat it was never meant to be that the muslims immigrants would stay here but no the there are fourth generation they are here and they are not planning to leave unfortunately this threat to a lot of people well according to the general intelligence and security service islamic extremism in that alliance has transformed from virtually invisible into and open and widespread phenomenon with several hundred supporters and thousands of

sympathizers do you agree with this a sudden assessment because it seems that some of those fears that people may have of a slum there are based on a on the objective trends or maybe i should have said that some of the fears that people have towards particular group of muslims on the. threats of course well there's always and you have as an african nation there's always a small percentage of people that are extreme. left of the to our society you can be extreme in no in fighting against all the relations with is not the purpose of islam islam is that the religion about extremism is not islam to the other sides for example assimilation is also a form of extremism so you have to stand for your failures and extremism is not a part of. people who within this this small percentage we're talking about maybe

one or two percent that are aggressive and misguided and don't understand this islam we have to of course we have to have to deal with and in a legal way but but i think it would also agree that certain strands of islam are more prevalent than others and i think what we see in many muslim countries is an effort to preserve indigenous islam and protect it from foreign influences particularly the saudi influence after a long record of what i would call predatory religious practices do you believe in diversity within islam and do you think it should be protected. diversity of islam in my opinion and again i'm not a scholar on the course about islam there is only one this lama and the only islam that is the islam as it to be is a tolerant and open mind is religion that has respect for other religions and other people and for no muslims and islam stands not for violence again the small group of people that are presenting themselves as muslims you can doubt if they are most

interest not up to me to judge about that of course but. they are we know for we have some we have done some research that some of these people actually are froma political parties and organizations that are actually fighting islam so if they are really muslims and if they are fighting from a most. perspective that is something you can question about well let me pose a question that you may not like but i still want to ask you because the mosque in the hague where or where you converted the mosque has been mentioned by the dutch and in television service as a salafi leaning community i'm sure you know it has a track record of. vitriolic speech they were preachers like for example if i was janae the who called for death or disease to people who criticized islam do you think that kind of speech should be allowed in the most particularly in your own mosque well again the this person is not involved in this mosque

anymore and we're talking about the period of ten years ago so things have changed even in this mosque and they are can contribute to society in a very positive way they are open minded and they are for but he is welcome to face at this most so we are talking about a different period but then on the other hand even if you call yourself salathiel whatever you cold to yourself or other groups within islam as long as you are within the law within the low you are free to talk on to people about religion as low as you don't go for. violence and for for intolerance . slowness i know and i'm not the most and for that alone most of us takes us but i have never noticed anyone in this mosque. calling for a aggression or attacks or terrorists and quite the contrary but they are very expressive and they are expressing themselves against the extremists and i think

that's a good point that particular preacher so was junaid stated during a sermon that bow down dodge m.p.i. yon harzi a leader who collaborated to be a feel one go off on he is a film submission he ask ally to blind her side to give her a brain cancer to give her tongue cancer do you understand how people can hear that oh read that and think that this is not religion of peace to me yes but then again that's what we're talking about a long time ago he was only fired in two thousand and twelve from what i know and he wasn't fired on religious grounds he was fired because if administrate if. i don't know about that i know what the we're talking about the period that is seventy years ago even before it was converted to islam. are his words are to look my words but again he has never been sentenced for for this if there is. there is no he has never been to jail or whatever so we are still living in

a democracy and if he is stepping about you know over a certain legal lines and you have to pick a thirty two you know or to do something about it. but then again he's not working in this most anymore so he is not for it the same thing us and must anymore well mr brown don't we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next the multiple different clubs on one hand it is logical to sort of go from fields where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and

a fresh perspective i'm used to suppressing. one thing if you think. i'm going to talk about football not for you or else you can think i was going to go. by the way what is it that's like here. so we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy going foundation let it be an arms race in his own often scary dramatic development only really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and tom.

welcome back to worlds apart with arnold want to warn president of the european dawa. mr one to one before the break i mentioned the the former dutch m.p. ion harsh reality who made an opposite transition to yours from a practicing muslim to an atheist and a critic although not a hater of islam do you respect da journey of course of course again a muslim is a tolerant islam is a religion of course it's a separate thing if someone is leaving islam or choosing both they are free to do that. we're living in a free country and democracy. and also from the. from the perspective of islam you have to accept people that death of course we have to do shall try to do something and you know try to convince people by talking with them and you know exchange information maybe you can get them back to with the islam about the again this is not in our hands it's in the hands of. now islam has long had

a somewhat complicated relationship with the freedom of speech and expression as they're defined in the west and i know that in that the lens and particularly this debate became far more polarized after a series of murders of people who were critical of islam particularly filmmaker theo van gogh fifteen years later do you think the dutch society has been able to find a proper balance between the religious and non-religious expression well unfortunately things will go in the right direction at this moment in the netherlands and not only in the us and the rest of western europe to see the far right and for intolerant political parties are growing i think that it's a great concern. because some minorities in europe in the netherlands for example the jewish minority the is the muslim majority they are both on their attack of. this very thin layer of tolerance that we are supposed to have in the in

the nuns as it's fading away in the fairy fairy foster way and this is a great concern definitely and we know all that well that long ago sixty eighty years ago we had the same situation then about the juice i know the muslims the muslim minorities in the same position that basically and it's worrying and yet you as a representative hope that the muslim minority has been able to restrain to politics you now represent an islamic political party in the city council of the hague and it looks really like. at the broader trend than the one in the west when expressly muslim openly muslim politicians are taking a bigger political taking on the bigger political role is there any difference in your view between being. a secular politician as he used to be back in your mill and religious years being a muslim politician no there's not

a big difference you have christian politicians we have muslim politicians. our party protection and part of the unity is the only real islamic party. there are other parties that they call themselves islamic base but there are basically such inner parties which is not a problem of course but i don't think it is a problem issue reported titian and your background is. if it is a jewish or christian or a muslim. i don't thing that doesn't make any difference we are all trying to contribute to society in a post if way the reason i'm asking is because politics is usually thought of as a field associated with a lot of ethical and moral compromises have you ever been in a position where you felt that your beliefs contradicted with what was politically expedient. they situations they they have been sometimes we are trying to base our political strategy and the way we are knowing you know we are politicians and we

are basing our political few on the koran and so no so if things are not in line with that for example during voting then we will not follow that we vote against it or normally that is not the problem but then again islam is is a part of the dutch a society with over a million one point two million muslims in the netherlands the majority of the people in my come in my city in the hague from the west on the rich and eighty percent of them is muslim so we are in society and we are part of society and we have the right to express ourselves and of course sometimes you have to base with all the political parties that's part of democracy well if you are ever put in their position do you think you could deal with the dutch freedom party i know you disagree on religious issues but other any other issues where your political positions overlap no it's not really not really maybe some of them if it's about

you know for example the way we treat people in the us a youth and family. you know that the gap between the very rich people amount of risk people and a lot of people that are not having that much money so we have some problems that be both. try to do to fight and to deal with but in general no there are not really because they are an intolerant party promoting the hate and intolerance and we. are at the party we are trying to build bridges and bring people together so that this quite the opposite now the far right parties often obsess about what they see as the possible islamic takeover of europe but i heard you say i heard your voice an opposite concerned that islam may disappear from europe within the next twenty to forty years. if muslims moderate muslims don't take a stand on you both relying on the so there are no moderate muslims or extreme muslims

and yes muslims but the thing is that because we are a threat for society for the for a lot of people in certain positions they don't like muslims to be like the way it's supposed to be from the point the fish and they are trying to create the so-called modern muslims or or or or western muslims that is a threat because i said earlier that extremism for example i guess is a threat for us but the other side the other way is also a stream isn't leaving islam and leaving and trying to create their own religion and call it a slum that is also a danger and we have to stay in the middle because as i said before islam is the moderates religion well actually leading me perfectly to my next question because by all estimates the number of muslims in europe is on the increase but you warned about the strengthening of the so-called western islam a younger generation who believe an alibi to allow themselves for example

a glass of wine or who don't pray five times a day is it really up to you or anyone else on this planet to determine who is a good muslim and who is not no of course not it's not up to other muslims to decide how to judge if someone is a muslim our not it's up to allah we have to respect that and i do of course but we also have to warn especially the young generation the young people for the dangers of this so-called western islam where you're supposed to drink a whole you go to a bar you go through descript a cure all these things that is. a common in western countries but the good thing is other especially the young generation you're talking about young generation they are just getting back to the to the islam where it reached what the supposed to be and that's a good thing and they are leaving those this so-called western. islam from their parents and maybe the first and second generation now you also spoke about

radicalization as one of the major threats to islam where do you personally draw that line between the hardline by nonviolent version of islam the extremist one. expect again extremism is not. allowed within islam. said before islam is the mother of the nation so there is no place for extremists but there is a right of course if people want to be like a call it may be an unorthodox muslim orthodox christians and also the juice. they should be free to do that we live in a free society in the work received on the wrist freedom of religion mr and mr von the reason i'm asking about this is because you know there are a number of countries saudi arabia is one of our where you don't have a cure yourself what kind of islam are you you practice your i when i go there even as a non muslim i have to comply with the rules are imposed on me there absolutely no tolerance of freedom and god free card so that's why i am asking where that line lies be to be in hardline orthodox islam or if you want to call it. an

extremist one because some would say that killing people for that own choices is an extremist saudi arabia does it as a as a state policy first of all we're living in saudi arabia later in the netherlands and we are minority in that i do you talked about all of before so you surely see muslim says people around the world rather than confined to a single country but then again within islam there is no place for extremism but for example people are calling most times these days that are praying five times five times a day that are doing the ramadan go to show how much wearing a job. some people call that extremism but that is not extremists and that islam is a supposed to be an if people want to perform their religion in that way they should be free to do that i'm talking extremism in my point of view is creating hate intolerance judging other people because they are not

a muslim or they are from another religion and i said to some o. these things are not part of islam about they are by some media. and politicians they tell people that is islam but it has nothing to do with islam islam is a peaceful religion well mr i think we probably disagree on the definition of extremism here because having every poured it from the syrian frontlines i see anyone who went to syria to join isis as an extremist but you back in two thousand and fourteen sad that we should not label guys who have been to syria as dangerous you said that you know a number of people who have returned they may be disillusioned but they are not dangerous and obviously do you know if they're dangerous or extremist or not well again. it's just one of the forms of extremism that we should not promote of course in my opinion again another scholar but i guess it's nothing to do with islam. and

this is already created by other organizations bob you know we don't have to talk. of course some of them can be dangerous and if they come back to the no less and to other western european countries they should be monitored and if they have. committed crimes against humanity or worse or crimes they have to go to a church and the you know we have a legal system but we have to monitor these people but to say oh all of them including their wives and innocent children so one three four five six years old you cannot say that they are terrorists and if they are sincere and they feel sorry for what they have done you have to come back you have to go to stand for george and to you have to be monitored but these people need a chance they need a second chance like everybody else you mentioned wives and children and according to the dutch authorities there are they maybe more than one hundred forty five children of foreign fighters growing up within the i says held territory most of them under the age of four or five and the dutch intelligence is pretty open

stating that they believe that those children may pose a future risk for the country they're also almost never fail to mention that. most of them were born in syria or iraq should that mean that the netherlands has no responsibility for those kids and that those kids should be dumped in syria and nobody should take care of them and that's outrageous of course through to the say that. the age of three or four five years that they are a threat or so sorry that's that's ridiculous of course it's ridiculous. that's creating hate that is creating intolerance. of course these people are in the in syria or iraq or and turkey or whatever where they are and some of these threats you're a refugee camps. we are again we are we are a democracy we are we are a legal society and they have the right to come back but then again if they have done something that is against the rules if they have killed people or committed

war crimes they have to stand before a judge and they will be convicted if they are convicted also they have done their sentence they are free and they should be guided. well if they are still with threats in the eyes of some people who are already in intelligence agencies again they should be monitored and that's also another very legal weight of dealing with it because people are granted certain human rights and certain legal rights and i think no bureaucracy can the joy just on its own accord anyway mr one don't we have to leave it here but i really appreciate you sharing your perspective with us today thank you very much you're welcome course but i encourage our viewers to you keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on the world's apart.

where did you work before you came here when you live. in many u.s.

states capital punishment is still practiced convicts they are very much in favor of the death penalty there are some people because of what they did given up the right to live among us somebody even proven innocent after years on death row and how many more races is it going to take before we as a society realize that this is not working and we actually do something about. a journalist working for a. company good on the colombia venezuela border as defectors plowed through crowds to get across the border.

areas for a fifteenth successive weekend of government. censorship the head of the entire.